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Opioids Combining an Opioid With Kratom

rock58

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Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
26
Can anyone advise me here?

I have significantly reduced a morphine/hydrocodone script (15 years) from 240mg. day MS contin/ 40 mg day Hydro to 60 mg. morphine per day. Kratom really helped the withdrawals.....but now I use Kratom as a supplement.

On such a low dose of morphine,my pain is out of control. Kratom seems to help.
I guess my question here is this: can these two work together,or to some extent fighting each other? Do they have a tendency to or partially cancel each other out?

This is very important to me. Without better pain control the limitations on my life are unacceptable. Any more educated/experienced help will be appreciated.
 

Wilson Wilson

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This belongs more in Other Drugs really. Maybe @Cream Gravy? can move it if he agrees.

Anyway yes you can combine kratom and regular opioids. They will enhance each other's effects.
 

rock58

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Oct 14, 2013
Messages
26
Hey Wilson.
Man,I appreciate that-even if you are lying to me,please don't stop. :)

Here's where I'm at...stable for 15 years or so on my meds. Never lost a pill,never asked for more,very little screwing around. Life was good. Then...got a drastic reduction 3 years ago to "improve my life". When it didn't help,they reduced my meds more.
I'm an alkie,I have 25 years plus without booze. At this point,I'm actually wondering if my last few years might be better off drunk. Not going to do it-but just the fact the thought crossed my mind surprised me.
Chronic pain can do strange things to a man.
 

Wilson Wilson

Moderator: BDD, OD
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Hey Wilson.
Man,I appreciate that-even if you are lying to me,please don't stop. :)

Here's where I'm at...stable for 15 years or so on my meds. Never lost a pill,never asked for more,very little screwing around. Life was good. Then...got a drastic reduction 3 years ago to "improve my life". When it didn't help,they reduced my meds more.
I'm an alkie,I have 25 years plus without booze. At this point,I'm actually wondering if my last few years might be better off drunk. Not going to do it-but just the fact the thought crossed my mind surprised me.
Chronic pain can do strange things to a man.
That's a horrible situation man. Legit pain patients having their opiates taken away is fucking insane.

Kratom should hopefully help take the edge off your pain and it definitely won't cause the problems alcohol brings. It is no problem to take kratom alongside opiates, I do it all the time, I'm doing it right now I took codeine this morning and kratom in the afternoon.
 

emkee_reinvented

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Jan 27, 2009
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In the goo
.but now I use Kratom as a supplement.
As replacement or substitute, don't wanna call Kratom a 'simple' supplement.

How about raising the dosage of Kratom on it's own. No experience with Morphine but another approach could be using the two on different day's, switching between them.
Which ROA (route of administration) you use for the Morphine rock58?
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
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Location
EC
They cancel eachother out but also help eachother in a way? It's strange... so hard to explain in text. I actually do notice that if I only drop oxy for a while I start to feel mentally off, and then I take kratom and feel back to normal. There must be some mini withdrawal if you take kratom regularly and substitute it for real opiates.

This combo is nothing special, but if it helps you with your chronic pain then there aren't repercussions besides having to worry about an increased tolerance to opiates in general. Kratom use alone shot my tolerance to oxy sky-high. Before touching kratom 20 mg would feel like alot, but afterwards now I need twice as much if not more to feel it. Sucks.
 

rock58

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Oct 14, 2013
Messages
26
Wilson,I can see you understand. I wish I could look you in the eye and shake your hand.
Not many I can talk too about this;hell even most docs don't understand...and the one who finally does would kick my ass out for talking Kratom. Where does that leave a man? I'm to old and low to hit the streets again.
 

Wilson Wilson

Moderator: BDD, OD
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Wilson,I can see you understand. I wish I could look you in the eye and shake your hand.
Not many I can talk too about this;hell even most docs don't understand...and the one who finally does would kick my ass out for talking Kratom. Where does that leave a man? I'm to old and low to hit the streets again.
You should try a few different doctors if possible. With a medical record showing you have not abused your medication in the past, and especially if you are middle aged or above, you should hopefully be able to find a doctor who sympathises with you and continues to provide the meds you need. That's the only advice I can give really.

It is wise to stay off the streets especially since fentanyl is such a widespread problem in the US right now. Even here in the UK it is now a growing concern.
 

rock58

Greenlighter
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
26
Get,
Do you believe 20mg. oxy with Kratom is comparable to 40mg.oxy? I can see how adding Kratom to a 20mg. dose of oxy would make the 20mg. dose alone less effective...but does that have to mean the Kratom is subtracting anything? Or is it just adding to the total dose?
In other words,is it much different from taking 40mg. of oxy/no Kratom compared to a dose of 20mg.? I want to believe the Kratom can be a more or less equal partner here in total dose effectiveness.
What you men think?
 

rock58

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Oct 14, 2013
Messages
26
Ahhh,Wilson...Doc's have so many restrictions now;here anyway. I have seen more than most. Just getting to see 2-3 pain docs like I have requires a perfect record and having many broken parts. I can still pass for "normbal" if you don't bump into me. :)
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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This is what I have to say about taking oxy with kratom in terms of dosing... because I ran into problems with this quite recently.

Obviously oxy feels better than kratom with it's highway of pleasurable alkloids or whatever they're called.. If you've already taken alot of oxy one day but feel barely any relief in regards to your pain situation--only take kratom for the rest of the day. I kept taking more oxy to counteract my depression and put myself in a scary situation with shallow breathing and etc. It's just not worth it. One can kill you while kratom is totally safe. Only you know your tolerance to painkillers. Kratom dose isn't as big of a deal because you can gauge it with your relief in pain and don't have to worry about breathing issues or overdosing.

I wouldn't talk to doctors about kratom. Most of them aren't knowledgable about it, but give it a try if you want. I know it sounds ironic because they're medical experts. Sometimes people go in for suboxone or detox from ridiculous amounts of kratom and all of the medical professionals have no idea what they're talking about.

You can talk to your doctor about switching to morphine tablets though. Those are one of the best in terms of pain relief actually I think even more than oxy. Please be safe. It's easy to forget that oxy can kill you and is a real drug when you've been taking it often!
 
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rock58

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Oct 14, 2013
Messages
26
Thanks men. I'll be safe. Kratom will always be on my table-I hope the doc's don't get to hip too fast,and I hope it stays legal.
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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Thanks men. I'll be safe. Kratom will always be on my table-I hope the doc's don't get to hip too fast,and I hope it stays legal.
It'll be legal :) People with no history of opiate use are starting to enjoy kratom. iirc the US government made an attempt to ban it already in some states but there was a lot of backlash from the science community even? I think there is one state where it's currently banned to sell it within stores. Don't quote me on any of this haha.
 

Wilson Wilson

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It'll be legal :) People with no history of opiate use are starting to enjoy kratom. iirc the US government made an attempt to ban it already in some states but there was a lot of backlash from the science community even? I think there is one state where it's currently banned to sell it within stores. Don't quote me on any of this haha.
It was the DEA who tried to ban it in the US, but they failed because so many people used it to get off smack and oxy it was giving them real bad PR and they dropped it. They would still like to ban it if they could, because they're funded by Big Pharma and would rather have everyone on subs than kratom, but they didn't expect it to draw so much media pressure.
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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It was the DEA who tried to ban it in the US, but they failed because so many people used it to get off smack and oxy it was giving them real bad PR and they dropped it. They would still like to ban it if they could, because they're funded by Big Pharma and would rather have everyone on subs than kratom, but they didn't expect it to draw so much media pressure.
Thank god. Fuck the DEA.

How dare America scratch their heads over the "opiate epidemic" and then ban all withdrawal tools besides even more oxy and heroin. It's like tripping someone and then being livid that they fell on the ground lol. Like what did you expect? They set themselves up. Kratom withdrawal isn't the worst but for poeple taking massive amounts daily the withdrawal definitely is mentally bad enough to seek out oxy or heroin for relief. That move would make the epidemic soooooo much drastically worse.

Off topic but the Juul situation just bothers me so much. They wanted people to become addicted to something less toxic--and totally achieved it more than they ever expected. But now all the flavors are being banned and they're trying to ween people off it and back to tobacco? The vaping articles being published are also ridiculous because it's black-market CBD vapes that cause lung issues, but they're trying to place the blame on nicotine vapes. This makes me think that tobacco industries pulled some shiz recently to regulate Juul off the market.
 
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Wilson Wilson

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Thank god. Fuck the DEA.

How dare America scratch their heads over the "opiate epidemic" and then ban all withdrawal tools besides even more oxy and heroin. It's like tripping someone and then being livid that they fell on the ground lol. Like what did you expect? They set themselves up. Kratom withdrawal isn't the worst but for poeple taking massive amounts daily the withdrawal definitely is mentally bad enough to seek out oxy or heroin for relief. That move would make the epidemic soooooo much drastically worse.

Off topic but the Juul situation just bothers me so much. They wanted people to become addicted to something less toxic--and totally achieved it more than they ever expected. But now all the flavors are being banned and they're trying to ween people off it and back to tobacco? The vaping articles being published are also ridiculous because it's black-market CBD vapes that cause lung issues, but they're trying to place the blame on nicotine vapes. This makes me think that tobacco industries pulled some shiz recently to regulate Juul off the market.
Agreed, it's fucking mad, but it comes down to the bottom line at the end of the day and Big Pharma wants people on subs. Kratom is a threat to their business. Can't patent a plant.

I absolutely believe the tobacco industry is behind all this scaremongering over vapes too. Luckily nothing is being banned here in the UK on that front (yet...) but all this bollocks about people dying from vapes is pure scaremongering tactics. Nine people died from dodgy black/grey market vape carts. Even if that's true how many people die from perfectly legal tobacco every year? It's not even close!
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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Agreed, it's fucking mad, but it comes down to the bottom line at the end of the day and Big Pharma wants people on subs. Kratom is a threat to their business. Can't patent a plant.

I absolutely believe the tobacco industry is behind all this scaremongering over vapes too. Luckily nothing is being banned here in the UK on that front (yet...) but all this bollocks about people dying from vapes is pure scaremongering tactics. Nine people died from dodgy black/grey market vape carts. Even if that's true how many people die from perfectly legal tobacco every year? It's not even close!
How is painkiller distribution in the UK? In the US, ethnic people are often denied pain relief (on the racist belief that blacks/latinos will end up selling them), resulting in a high rate of opioid addiction specifically among caucasion people. Obviously there are real chronic pain patients, but with no way to gauge pain other than the patient's vocalization of it and our pharmaceutical companies desires for profit--it's gotten out-of-hand. I remember when I got a tooth pulled, the procedure was done well without any pain following it (and I told them there was no pain) and they gave me a percocet script anyway :p I was like 12 at the time and another family member ended up eating them all because I said I didn't need them LOL. I found this out many years later though.

There was a specific doctor who became famous for prescribing high dose opiates. Proably some of his patients were bluffing, but a large number of them couldn't live with the pain they felt on a regular basis. His prescriptions were quite high iirc around the 80+ milligrams and one patient overdosed. I don't know if she had taken more than the script recommendation but she was an elderly woman. The doctor was legally prosecuted and forced to retire practice. One of his patients committed suicide after the script was taken away and left a suicide video behind stating how the doctor was the only one who was able to treat his severe chronic pain, and that he didn't want to live anymore with what he felt. A large number of his patients had similar complaints and trouble coping afterwards. Now, I don't know anything about legally if policies changed where if a doctor is found guilty for medical malpractice that the scripts are affected. But it's just a tricky situation where people really need them to get out of bed in the morning, but at the same time so many of these pills are set aside for recreational use. I hope they either stop prescribing them for mild pain situations, or find a better way to gauge the patient's pain other than their word. It makes it harder for real chronic pain patients to obtain a script when they actually need them for coping. Regardless, they've got to do something about it haha. We can't have everyone and their grandma on subs. For alot of people suboxone doesn't work or they constantly cheat around the sub timeline and still use. Our heroin is more potent than ever. Unless you have god tolerance from many years of use it's probably going to kill you if you manage to get your hands on a horrible batch. So many former chronic pain patients end up flocking to H when the scripts are revoked. Esp in places like baltimore where heroin is running rampant. It's really sad to me. Another solution is to distribute narcan in the same way painkillers are distributed like candy. I think I remember hearing that narcan is quite expensive and inefficient to be given out frequently. Maybe they can produce a cheaper alternative?
 
Last edited:

Wilson Wilson

Moderator: BDD, OD
Staff member
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
2,191
Location
LDN, UK
How is painkiller distribution in the UK? In the US, ethnic people are often denied pain relief (on the racist belief that blacks/latinos will end up selling them), resulting in a high rate of opioid addiction specifically among caucasion people. Obviously there are real chronic pain patients, but with no way to gauge pain other than the patient's vocalization of it and our pharmaceutical companies desires for profit--it's gotten out-of-hand. I remember when I got a tooth pulled, the procedure was done well without any pain following it (and I told them there was no pain) and they gave me a percocet script anyway :p I was like 12 at the time and another family member ended up eating them all because I said I didn't need them LOL. I found this out many years later though.

There was a specific doctor who became famous for prescribing high dose opiates. Proably some of his patients were bluffing, but a large number of them couldn't live with the pain they felt on a regular basis. His prescriptions were quite high iirc around the 80+ milligrams and one patient overdosed. I don't know if she had taken more than the script recommendation but she was an elderly woman. The doctor was legally prosecuted and forced to retire practice. One of his patients committed suicide after the script was taken away and left a suicide video behind stating how the doctor was the only one who was able to treat his severe chronic pain, and that he didn't want to live anymore with what he felt. A large number of his patients had similar complaints and trouble coping afterwards. Now, I don't know anything about legally if policies changed where if a doctor is found guilty for medical malpractice that the scripts are affected. But it's just a tricky situation where people really need them to get out of bed in the morning, but at the same time so many of these pills are set aside for recreational use. I hope they either stop prescribing them for mild pain situations, or find a better way to gauge the patient's pain other than their word. It makes it harder for real chronic pain patients to obtain a script when they actually need them for coping. Regardless, they've got to do something about it haha. We can't have everyone and their grandma on subs. For alot of people suboxone doesn't work or they constantly cheat around the sub timeline and still use. Our heroin is more potent than ever. Unless you have god tolerance from many years of use it's probably going to kill you if you manage to get your hands on a horrible batch. So many former chronic pain patients end up flocking to H when the scripts are revoked. Esp in places like baltimore where heroin is running rampant. It's really sad to me. Another solution is to distribute narcan in the same way painkillers are distributed like candy. I think I remember hearing that narcan is quite expensive and inefficient to be given out frequently. Maybe they can produce a cheaper alternative?
As it stands currently it is far easier to get opiates in the UK than in the US. We never had mass oxy scripts handed out to everyone so we don't have any "opioid epidemic", and our doctors are generally not racist like the American ones.

Now keep in mind the ease of getting certain scripts differs throughout the country simply because the NHS is not a centralised authority, but rather each area runs their own CCG (clinical care group) and they decide the guidelines doctors in that area should follow. The NHS is state run universal healthcare, and we also have private healthcare you can choose to pay for, the main benefits being access to treatments not covered under the NHS and much shorter waiting times - but private doctors are also much more loosely regulated and therefore are virtually free to act like pill mills if they wish.

I'll answer for the NHS since it's what most people have access to. If you have an operation you will get codeine, DHC, tramadol, or morphine. If you get put on a weak opioid, say codeine, and complain you are still in pain after an operation, you can get something stronger maxing out at morphine pretty easy. These are almost always IR preparations and only scripted for a couple months max. The most common morphine script in this case is Oramorph 10mg/5ml solution which amazingly is somehow not controlled.

Chronic pain is more tricky, and this is where you begin to see differences between CCG's. I know parts of the UK where doctors freely hand out opiate scripts every month to any woman who complains of period pains. Usually these are weaker opiates like codeine, DHC, or tramadol.

My own experience has shown it's pretty easy for me to get opiates on the NHS. I've had operations and got large doses of DHC (which I fucking love) thrown at me with morphine on top for breakthrough pain. I've also had the max dose of DHC scripted to me for back pain before, and this was not too difficult, the doc just pushed certain parts of my back and asked where it hurt, then made a diagnosis in 5 minutes and when I asked for painkillers I was just straight up given a script. But because these were long-term use they were XR.

Now I said before there's not as much element of racism in the UK medical system compared to the US, indeed many of our doctors are of Asian decent, but there is absolutely classism. If you come off looking middle class you will have much better luck getting a doctor to script you opiates in most cases. There's people here on BL who have accused me of lying about the scripts I get, but I assure you I am not. Stims, benzos, opiates, all easy for me to get scripted.

One thing that makes a surprising about of difference is wearing glasses. There is a cognitive bias whereby people with glasses are assumed to be intelligent, innocent, honest, etc. This effect is so strong that lawyers even tell defendants to wear glasses with clear lenses in court.

But ultimately if you go into the doctors and you look like an innocent middle class patient you will probably get the script you want assuming it's reasonable. Doctors are almost always themselves middle class and people will empathise with those who are similar to themselves.

A class of drug that is difficult to get scripted here is benzos. I had to get a referral from a private psychiatrist before my GP would give me those. They're mad paranoid about benzo scripts due to a huge class action lawsuit over diazepam addiction in the 90's which the doctors lost. But getting opiates is honestly a piece of piss. I even know people who managed to totally blag an oxy script just from their GP.
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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As it stands currently it is far easier to get opiates in the UK than in the US. We never had mass oxy scripts handed out to everyone so we don't have any "opioid epidemic", and our doctors are generally not racist like the American ones.

Now keep in mind the ease of getting certain scripts differs throughout the country simply because the NHS is not a centralised authority, but rather each area runs their own CCG (clinical care group) and they decide the guidelines doctors in that area should follow. The NHS is state run universal healthcare, and we also have private healthcare you can choose to pay for, the main benefits being access to treatments not covered under the NHS and much shorter waiting times - but private doctors are also much more loosely regulated and therefore are virtually free to act like pill mills if they wish.

I'll answer for the NHS since it's what most people have access to. If you have an operation you will get codeine, DHC, tramadol, or morphine. If you get put on a weak opioid, say codeine, and complain you are still in pain after an operation, you can get something stronger maxing out at morphine pretty easy. These are almost always IR preparations and only scripted for a couple months max. The most common morphine script in this case is Oramorph 10mg/5ml solution which amazingly is somehow not controlled.

Chronic pain is more tricky, and this is where you begin to see differences between CCG's. I know parts of the UK where doctors freely hand out opiate scripts every month to any woman who complains of period pains. Usually these are weaker opiates like codeine, DHC, or tramadol.

My own experience has shown it's pretty easy for me to get opiates on the NHS. I've had operations and got large doses of DHC (which I fucking love) thrown at me with morphine on top for breakthrough pain. I've also had the max dose of DHC scripted to me for back pain before, and this was not too difficult, the doc just pushed certain parts of my back and asked where it hurt, then made a diagnosis in 5 minutes and when I asked for painkillers I was just straight up given a script. But because these were long-term use they were XR.

Now I said before there's not as much element of racism in the UK medical system compared to the US, indeed many of our doctors are of Asian decent, but there is absolutely classism. If you come off looking middle class you will have much better luck getting a doctor to script you opiates in most cases. There's people here on BL who have accused me of lying about the scripts I get, but I assure you I am not. Stims, benzos, opiates, all easy for me to get scripted.

One thing that makes a surprising about of difference is wearing glasses. There is a cognitive bias whereby people with glasses are assumed to be intelligent, innocent, honest, etc. This effect is so strong that lawyers even tell defendants to wear glasses with clear lenses in court.

But ultimately if you go into the doctors and you look like an innocent middle class patient you will probably get the script you want assuming it's reasonable. Doctors are almost always themselves middle class and people will empathise with those who are similar to themselves.

A class of drug that is difficult to get scripted here is benzos. I had to get a referral from a private psychiatrist before my GP would give me those. They're mad paranoid about benzo scripts due to a huge class action lawsuit over diazepam addiction in the 90's which the doctors lost. But getting opiates is honestly a piece of piss. I even know people who managed to totally blag an oxy script just from their GP.
Maybe I should relocate to the UK. Sounds tempting... Benzos shouldn't be given out left and right though. Never found them addicting but quite a number do, and the withdrawals being so severe and highly dangerous without tapering down is something that shouldn't be handled without medical care. Like pain management, there's alot of pepole who don't have panic attacks or anxiety that seek them out for sure.
 
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