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Click here to legalise drugs!!!

endlesseulogy

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Dec 14, 2003
Messages
2,831
18-02-2004 12:08 (#1649172)
I am a strong advocate of ending prohibition. In order to do this, we must encourage the media to promote positive drug stories. The only reason people usually die of ecstacy intoxicity is if they are #1. Dumb, #2. Fallen prey to black market dealers cutting costs. Solution: If ecstacy were legalised the government regulate dosages and quality.. people would be able to make an informed choice about the right dosages reducing the risk of dumb people intentionally over dosing.. regulating legal MDMA would totally cut out meth labs.. reducing gang crime.. pure MDMA is relitivly physically harmless.. 1 in 100,000 people have a fatal recation to MDMA.. 1 in 10,000 people are allergic to strawberries.. does that mean we should ban strawberries? prohibition dosnt make sence.. protest for your rights.. please consider the following :


Alcohol and tobacca Many people think of them as an innocent drug. But is it? Alcohol and tobacco kill more people worldwide then all illegal drugs put together, yet it is socially acceptable to drink and not think twice about its effects. Prohibition of alcohol has proven a mistake in the past, just like prohibition of other drugs are now. We only have to walk down the streets of Melbourne to see how prohibition is effecting the community. Homeless and hungry, heroin addicts scour the streets like vampires looking for blood. Many people fail to realise the toll heroin prohibition is taking on the community. Note these following points

1. The only reason why people die of heroin over-doses is because the production of heroin is illegal and unsupervised this leaves more chance for adulterants to make its way into street heroin. Also dosages are often wrong due to the unprofessionalism of the producers.

Solution: Legalisation of heroin would mean a massive decrease in the amount of people who overdose. Heroin would be produced to meet government qualitative and quantitative standards.

2. The average heroin addicts spends $100 a day to keep up a heroin habit. This is because the producers realise the high addictive potential of heroin and they choose to exploit it in order to make more profits.

Solution: legalisation would mean the government would sell heroin from pharmacies under the PBS system, this would lead to a reduction in heroin related crime such as robberies, other assorted theft, even murder. Addicts would also be able to use their money to by food and shelter as many heroin addicts are so addicted that the drug becomes their primary means of living, housing and food often becomes secondary.

3. Most street gangs live on money from drug profits. Legalisation of heroin and other drugs will most likely wipe out gangs and gang crime. In theory the general crime rate will be reduced and we would be living in a more stable and less violent community. This would free up a lot of police time so they would be able to focus on more important crimes such as murder or rape. Less money would be spent on hearing drug - related cases in court.

4. Heroin addiction should be treated like alcohol addiction. Heroin users should be persuaded to attend heroin addiction groups for help to kick their habit, instead of being treated like social pariahs. This would lead to greater social harmony and would make the issue of heroin addiction a less stereotyped occurrence.

Cannabis..

Obvious one.. people think legalising cannabis will open the flood gates.. the Netherlands is a case in point. It is a perfectly normal country with one of the lowest crime rates in europe.. they have legal cannabis... why cant we follow their example.. studys in the netherlands have shown that after legalisation nobody new started the habit of smoking.. so most smokers stayed smokers, and most non-smokers stayed non - smokers. the fact that they have the choice is what matters...

I am currently doing a student documentary exposing prohibition for what it is... ITS ONLY CAUSING MORE HARM!..

write to your MP's

SUMMERY

What are the effects of the Prohibition of Drugs?
So here we are, after 40 years plus of prohibition, with $Billions spent, for what?

Here are the results:
More crime than ever before!
More recreational drug use than ever before!
More anti social behaviour than ever before!
Less trust of government and the political parties than ever!
More anti-drug spending than ever before!
More drug related deaths than ever before!
More drug related medical problems and costs than ever before!
More addicts than ever before!
Etc, etc, etc, etc...

And what is the worst aspect of this prohibition?

Generations of young people have been introduced to criminality, because that is where one gets drugs-from the criminal underworld. Yes, these are the same people who provide protection rackets, sell the worst kind of pornography, pimp for prostitutes, and lead previously good people down the wrong roads in life simply because they become addicted. Our laws actually push our children -our future-into the hands and control of the lowest part of our society. Is this crazy? You're damn right it is!

When in the history of our modern societies was the last time feuding gangs and criminals had battles with machine guns in our streets?

Answer: During the prohibition of alcohol in the 1920's!

Well it's all back, and for exactly the same reasons. In the end of course it all comes down to stupidity, and a lack of willingness for governments, media and people generally to let people do what they want to do. The Nanny State knows best! Wrong!

Remember Liberty? Remember how we fought for it in two world wars, and why the slogan of the American Revolution was 'Give me liberty or give me death? Remember??

THE SOLUTION :

The solution to the War on Drugs is so obvious! Why is it not on the lips of EVERY politician?

Here it is:

1. Legalise all drugs
2. Allow people to make/grow their own if they want.
3. Classify drugs between those requiring medical/pharmaceutical prescription and lighter drugs that can be sold more openly (such as marijuana and alcohol)
4. Only allow persons of 18 years and older or another legally determined age to legally purchase drugs. Harder drugs would be sold by Pharmacies/Chemists, and only after a consultation to ensure users are aware of risks and to determine safe dosages. Marijuana could be sold from liquor stores/offlicences as alcohol is now
5. Enforce quality standards on all drugs
6. Treat Addiction as an illness, and provide medical services to help addicts beat their problem.
7. Tax drugs and use the income to fund drug use training in schools, quality enforcement, addiction assistance/medical help for addicts, and medical/pharmaceutical training
8. Make it illegal for anyone to supply drugs to minors, with harsh penalties (say 1 years mandatory community service followed by 10 years in prison)
9. Impose harsh penalties (large fines, community service and imprisonment) on anyone who causes harm to anyone else whilst under the influence of drugs. No distinction is made between alcohol and other drugs. Driving whilst under the influence of drugs and alcohol should be treated as a major offence, whether someone is injured or not. It is effectively attempted manslaughter, at the very minimum. Big fines along with compulsory re-education and community service (a substantial amount of it-like 2 years) should be followed by a mandatory minimum jail term for any subsequent offence.
10. Make the giving of drugs to another person without their consent a serious criminal assault, punishable by a combination of prison and mandatory community service.

THE RESULTS :


Our proposed solution would make a very clear statement to everyone: If you are of legally consenting age, you can do what you want to yourself, so long as you don't cause harm, intentionally or not, to anyone else. If you use drugs, and do cause harm, or do something whilst under the influence of drugs, such as drive a vehicle, which could cause harm, then you are in big trouble.

As a civilisation we need to respect individual rights; as individuals we need to ensure we respect the rights of others, and by our actions not do harm to anyone else. With freedom comes responsibility, and with responsibility comes accountability.

By legalising drugs and items 1-10 above, we would be doing the following:

1. People wishing to use drugs could do so without being a criminal
2. Children would not come into contact with the criminal underworld like they do now. Life would revert to a situation where most people would have nothing at all to do with crime.
3. Drug deaths and medical costs would decline radically because drugs would be quality controlled, and not mixed with harmful substances which cause most of the medical problems. Overdoses would be very rare, as users would know their correct doses.
4. All the money made by drug traffickers would stay in the mainstream of society, and not go to funding other criminal activities.
5. Street crime would virtually disappear, along with its main cause, getting money so an addict can fund their next fix.
6. The growing division in our society between the police and people generally would reverse, as so-called 'victimless crimes' would no longer be illegal.
7. Instead of £$Billions each year going to criminals, governments could collect taxes on drugs sold legitimately through off-licenses, drug stores, pharmacies and liquor stores. You can bet the government would like this! Wake up you politicians out there!
8. A new respect for individual rights would invigorate our society
9. Driving under the influence of any drug would be seen as a serious crime, requiring recompense to the community, even if no one had been hurt.
10. The fascination of drugs to children, part of which is driven by its present illegality and anti-establishmentary disposition, would reduce dramatically. Drugs could be openly discussed, and whilst experimentation would never stop (as it never has with tobacco or alcohol), the interest in the harder drugs in particular would decline, as their 'on the street' illegal connection through drug dealers would cease.
11. Our streets would be safe again, with no need for gang wars over drug territories, etc.

OTHER OPINIONs from www.stopthedrugwar.org

"Dear Judge King:

I write you from a different corner of the world of law than the one you oversee for the District of Columbia: the community of advocates striving to change laws and policies. For the past ten years, I have worked as founder and executive director of StopTheDrugWar.org: the Drug Reform Coordination Network (DRCNet), an organization which calls for an end to prohibition and the so-called "war on drugs."

It is with sadness for our country, but hope for its future, that I write to inform you that conscience does not permit me to appear for jury service as your court has directed.

US drug policy is in a state of moral and humanitarian crisis, shaming us before history: Half a million nonviolent drug offenders clog our prisons and jails. Mandatory minimum sentences and inflexible sentencing guidelines condemn numerous low-level offenders to years or decades behind bars, often based solely on the word of compensated, confidential informants. Profiling and other racial or economic disparities assault the dignity and safety of our poor and minorities and deny them equal justice. Overall, criminalization has become a reflexive, default reaction to social problems, as opposed to its more limited, proper role as a last resort after other methods have failed. As a result, more than two million people are imprisoned in the United States, the highest incarceration rate of any nation.

The external consequences of the drug laws wreak a devastating toll on large segments of our society and on other countries: Prohibition creates a lucrative black market that soaks our inner cities in violence and disorder, and lures young people into lives of crime. Laws criminalizing syringe possession, and the overall milieu of underground drug use and sales, encourage needle sharing and increase the spread of HIV and Hepatitis C. Our drug war in the Andes fuels a continuing civil war in Colombia, with prohibition-generated illicit drug profits enabling its escalation. Thousands of Americans die from drug overdoses or poisonings by adulterants every year, most of their deaths preventable through the quality-controlled market that would exist if drugs were legal. Physicians' justifiable fear of running afoul of law enforcers causes large numbers of Americans to go un- or under-treated for intractable chronic pain. And frustration over the failure of the drug war, together with the lack of dialogue on prohibition, distorts the policymaking process, leading to ever more intrusive governmental interventions and ever greater dilution of the core American values of freedom, privacy and fairness.

Drug policies have significantly driven a deep corrosion of the ethics and principles underlying our system of justice: Police officers routinely violate constitutional rights to make drug busts, often committing perjury to secure convictions; or resort to trickery and manipulation to cause individuals to give up their rights, enabled by an intricate web of legalistic court rulings stretching the letter of the law while betraying its spirit. Manipulation of evidence and process is standard procedure. Many prosecutors, though thankfully not all, treat their position as a stepping stone to elected office, subjugating their oaths to seek justice to a political calculus based instead on individual career advancement. Corruption and misconduct among enforcers and within agencies is widespread. And all these problems, while not officially sanctioned, are in practice largely tolerated: criminal prosecution for police abuse is the exception, and disbarment for prosecutorial misconduct is almost unheard of. Meanwhile, false or unfair convictions occur with unacknowledged frequency, with persons thus victimized often spending years in prison while seeking exoneration.

Jurors in the United States cannot therefore confidently rely on the information we are provided for deciding criminal cases. We cannot know if we have been told the whole truth of a case – as in the trials of Ed Rosenthal and Bryan Epis, whom California jurors convicted without knowing they were medical marijuana providers. We cannot trust the testimony of witnesses for the state to be truthful and balanced; for example, Andrew Chambers, a "super-snitch" used by the US Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) for numerous prosecutions, even after a court found him to be a repeat perjurer. We are not permitted knowledge of the possible consequences a defendant may face if we vote to convict – and in a society that hands out decades-long punishments as a routine matter, and which fails to provide adequate safety or medical care to our incarcerated, we cannot have faith that a judge will be able, even if willing, to pronounce a sentence that is just. We are instructed to decide verdicts based solely on facts, showing no consideration to larger moral principles, with those daring to inform potential jurors of their power to do otherwise themselves subjected to criminalization to an increasing degree. And we subsidize the injustices by providing our time for mere travel cost as members of the jury pool, and for less than a living wage while serving as jurors on cases.

We in the District of Columbia have attempted multiple times to effect modest changes to our drug policy, only to have our voices rebuffed or silenced. A voter initiative to permit medical use of marijuana, Measure 63, was struck from our ballot by Congress; and an initiative to divert a limited class of offenders from jail into treatment, Measure 62, which the electorate of the District approved overwhelmingly, was blocked from being implemented by a court, in a proceeding initiated at the behest of our own Mayor. Despite a significant degree of reform sentiment among District residents, our criminal justice policies largely parallel the unceasing arrest and incarceration program of the nation as a whole. Indeed, our justice system is heavily influenced by a Congress that makes use of our taxes but affords us no voting representation within its ranks, and by a federal enforcement bureaucracy which this Congress funds and to which it has granted substantial authority over our local criminal justice matters.

None of the foregoing is intended to reflect any condemnation or disrespect of your office or profession – and no such sentiment is harbored toward the son of Rufus King II, a great crusader for justice and a member of my organization. I take heart from your tenure as well as from the efforts of the majority of individuals working in the criminal justice system who strive with integrity to serve the public weal. But judges and jurors alike are in the grip of larger political and social forces; and the moral obligations of the private citizen vs. the official duties of the appointed public servant are not always one and the same.

I do not lightly exclude myself from jury service, which in a just society I would consider a privilege and honor. But while the past ten years have seen some encouraging developments in drug policy reform, the fundamental punitive, prohibitionist focus of the government's anti-drug program remains unchanged, as does the extremity of its execution and the corrupting toll it takes on the administration of justice as a whole. On that latter concern, I also do not dismiss the need for, or the validity of, legitimate laws protecting safety and property, even in the face of injustice in their administration; the District has a defensible need for jurors to serve on such cases, and I do not call for that process to cease or wait.

But the untrustworthiness of the system in its overview, a result to a significant degree of the drug war, presents potential jurors with a moral dilemma whose resolution lies beyond their power: to serve, at least on cases involving laws that are just in and of themselves, but risking committing wrong by enabling the system to commit an injustice that they cannot reliably identify in advance (a significant possibility for any juror in the current state of affairs), and in any case still facilitating injustice indirectly by enlarging the total size of the available juror pool; or to commit a different wrong by refusing to serve even on cases involving such laws (the system's overall unreliability being a valid justification for such refusal in and of itself), but continuing to receive the benefits of the protection which those laws provide.

It may be that the lesser wrong, and the greater good, lie in refusing to serve a corrupted system entirely, in hopes of, through such a choice, provoking needed discussion and increasing the public and political will for reform. As the great American philosopher and abolitionist, Henry David Thoreau, expounded in his famous essay Civil Disobedience, "It is not a man's duty, as a matter of course, to devote himself to the eradication of... even the most enormous wrong... but it is his duty, at least, to wash his hands of it, and, if he give it no thought longer, not to give it practically his support."

My service as a juror in the District of Columbia would directly or indirectly support injustice, and would help to fuel the illusion that drug prohibition serves the health and safety of the public; when in reality only some form of legalization can adequately address the combined harms of drugs and drug prohibition, which in the currently one-dimensional public dialogue are commonly attributed only to drugs; and when in reality only some form of legalization can satisfy the fundamental obligation of society to respect individual freedom while requiring individual responsibility.

Lastly, should I report to your court as a potential juror, it is an all but foregone conclusion that my profession, which was asked of me on the juror registration form, would cause me not to be selected for a jury, as has happened in the past. Those of us who place greater importance on conscience and individual justice than on the enactments of legislatures, and who do so outspokenly, are effectively disenfranchised from jury service for this reason. For me to report as a potential juror, then, would amount to participation in a game, devaluing both the system you administer and the principles to which I ascribe.

For all these reasons, I have determined that unjust drug laws, and the corrosion wrought by the drug war on the criminal justice system as a whole, compel me to conscientiously refuse jury service. I take this action with knowledge and acceptance of the possible consequences, and request no special consideration.

Respectfully,


David Borden, Executive Director, DRCNet/StopTheDrugWar.org, and citizen of the District of Columbia

Cc: Duane B. Delaney, Clerk of the Court "
 
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ok quick rebutal
legalise all drugs?
buy drugs from pharmacists?
2gs of coke please, plus 5 or ur best pingers, plus one panadol for kids for my infant...

the day that occurs, ill be in my bomb shelter..
 
apply simple logic to your statement.. wouldnt you rather have people buying cheap drugs that have been quality and qualitity controlled rather then have people dying because they have taken something that is poor quality? also you dont seem to realise how much money gangs make off drugs... legalise drugs = no gangs..
 
I can understand and appreciate many of the points you've presented endlesseulogy. However, the current political reality, IMO doesn't facilitate at all for such a change.


In case you don't know it already, at this point I thought I should indicate that like many around these parts, there's been times when I've been known to be a bit of a stirrer. Shocking as it may sound, I have to admit that the teaspoon I began raising all those many years ago is now a fully grown shovel ;)

If you had presented an opposite argument I would have been just as eager to dissect and discuss things from a stance supporting legislation, which of course I personally think is the right thing. Nothing is intended or directed as a personal attack, nor is it intended to indicate I think you are wrong in principle. So in the interests of discussion......



MDMA Relative Harm Potential

While there is no doubt that tobacco and alcohol are responsible for many deaths, either directly or indirectly through accidents etc., there are many problems associated with banning or prohibiting these, or with even limiting sales of these drugs. The major factors as I see them are:



  • [*]Length of time they have been legal
    [*]Worth of the Industry
    [*]Status (power) of the big players
    [*]Enormous market growth and profits
    [*]Government earnings from alcohol and tobacco


Of course there are other reasons such as health claims for small amounts of alcohol. There's even some for nicotine, such as a possible preventative for particular forms of dementia.

Nicotine and alcohol have been with us for centuries. Caffeine is a relatively new player in the west, made famous in france by the Bohemians during the mid eighteenth century. The main point here is that these substances, over more than 100 years, have been well entrenched into everyday society. Industrialisation eventually developed an economic dependance, providing millions in government revenue. Any phasing out of any of these commodities has to be done very very slowly, allowing companies and investors to make alternative ventures - a gentle landing if you like. The political importance of acknowledging 3rd world economy and impacts from affecting their staple crops/industries must also influence how and when any changes such as this are implemented.

So, although smoking is being phased out as an acceptable social practice, this has been very slow to become universal. Profit for these companies is in someways compensated by the still increasing numbers of young people taking up the habit. At the worst, profits are incrementally reduced with any response from limiting public smoking, or successful health campaigns against smoking. It's been as gentle a let down as possible....they way it is required to be.


When we look at other recreational drugs studied extensively for acute and chronic side effects, we are restricted to amphetamine (+ Meth) and the opiates. These drugs were once, or are still used in medicine. In lieu of the observed problems with self administration of these drugs, research was done as soon as technology permitted. Restriction was deemed required; a natural response from observing trends associated with use.
Perhaps society wasn't grown up enough when legislation was introduced. Perhaps the problems weren't as bad as made out. We all know that many users today are not facing death at every turn, and long term use in reduced amounts may not be as dangerous as first thought or assumed.

Yet we have to ask ourselves what we really know about MDMA. We have about 15 years of studies, and indeed we know far more about MDMA than we did about methamphetamine 15 years after it's introduction. But the research has concluded beyond doubt that MDMA does cause damage to the brain. The mechanisms associated with memory, and general 5HT communication are upset, particularly with larger doses. In medicine, such a state is to be avoided at all costs.

We know MDMA:



  • [*]Depletes reserves of serotonin
    [*]Inhibits tryptophan hydroxylase, a very important enzyme. Without this, serotonin cannot be replenished unless 5HTP is administered.
    [*] We also know MDMA reduces levels of the 5HT transporter, needed to enable docking of the ligands to serotonin receptors.
    [*]Finally, we also know that large doses damage 5HT axon terminals, resulting in reduced numbers of active neurons.



There's also recent research indicating MDMA affects the thyroid -pituitary-hypothalamus axis, which could have serious impact for those predisposed. It might not kill you today, but would a heart attack the following month or year be attributed? Sure this is wild speculation on my part, but it's based upon stuff which is only now being investigated, but which I've wondered about after noting health problems with some users including my brother...but that's another story.

Any pharmaceutical company, knowing those facts about a drug, would never consider marketing it as any form of therapeutic. The exception may be perhaps in very low dosages in a supervised, clinical environment, but more likely if society as to approve the use of psychedelics or empathogens, better drugs would be to designed. That's if combinatorial libraries haven't already got such things by the 1000's, which wouldn't surprise me in the least.

In terms of offering society a better choice of drug to maintain the cravings of party lovers, provide the tranquility for temporary escape, or the launch platform for pyschonauts, MDMA is far from the perfect soma (Huxley; Brave New World 1927) While small doses taken irregularly may definitely be less harmful than larger frequent doses, in truth we still don't know. Long term studies can only be done at the very least when people have been taking the drug regularly for a long time. While there are some out there who've been taking MDMA for 30 years, they are relatively few, and subjection would be impossible remove from such a study. As has been found in the past, many drugs and toxins don't show hideous effects for 30 or more years.

So what makes a pharmaceutical "equivalent" any better?

Years ago it wasn't necessarily any better. But drug design today is just that. It's true things are still being discovered by accident, but as time goes on and QSAR models become more accurate, drug designers will be able to offer new drugs with an unprecedented confidence. Produced by design, if the perfect drug - to cure - to calm - to prevent- is likened to holy water, then we are only just entering the age of aquarius.


So what's the alternative to legalising drugs while still addressing the important points endlesseulogy has made?

I believe - odd as it may sound - that as a society, we are gradually moving towards seeing some form of legislation as being an achievable objective, although the manner of getting there will be slow, necessary, both to reflect the gradual change in public perception, as well as to allow other ethical and moral arguments to be debated well before they are inevitably laid to rest.

So what will the future bring? I've said elsewhere my thoughts on legalising - allowing people to purchase after completing drug education workshops. I've also mentioned that even if and when drugs become legal, the social and health systems would set the rules. It would have to be like that. As SteveElectro mentioned ....sounds like 1984: drugs allocated to the masses. But health leads the way. The relative risks of all substances are catagorised according to toxicity. Even if statistics showed the rate of adverse incidents with MDMA use to be very low, it would not satisfy H & S concerns.

So reform must occur slowly and gently. As much as anyone I'm frustrated with the slow pace of recognising users as not all being of criminal character. This is happening, mostly because of the large numbers of responsible or irregular users, and the honesty between them and those close who, today are well aware where once had no idea that "regular" people used drugs- and safely. This awareness is spreading everywhere. For good or bad, virtually everyone can say that they know someone who uses illicit drugs. That's a big difference to 20 years ago. More significant perhaps is that much of that awareness stems from freely informing and educating those who are loved.

The next move will be to slowly remove user crime altogether. It may take another 10 years, but it will happen, that's for sure. If it isn't then already happening, testing will then become acceptable. Cries of safety concerns and moral outrage will in part be be quelled by the role health and safety will play in this area. It will be totally by their rules then.

The next stage could either see some drugs legalised, or more likely, to introduce pharmaceutical equivalents in place of MDMA and others. No matter whether it is legal version of what we currently have, or new fancy non-toxic pharmaceuticals, there will ALWAYS be a market for clandestine drugs. Some people will for what ever reason be drawn by the mystery associated with the unknown. Clandestine production will still turn out dirty pills, and believe it or not, some people will prefer them.

Although any such system of legislation will chop out the middle man and the big dealers, it will also mean a reduction in drug investigation officers, as big crime will recede into other areas of exploitation. Or perhaps they will design a new drug to attempt recapturing the market?

Small time operators, finding a niche market for stronger "flavoured" pills, will branch out, in much the same way as bootleg occurs today. Wether or not you're aware of it, there's currently big business here, particularly when it's heard that some pubs and clubs have been caught blending hooch with their spirits. I've even heard a story of a guy who recently gave up making speed to make rum! A person can almost make the profit margins of a brewery or distillery, because of the savings on not paying or passing on any tax. People say good Hooch is just as good as the commercial thing. I thought it was OK on the couple of times I've tried it, but then again, I'm not a spirit drinker these days.

Let's look at what happened in NZ. Hooch became so common they legalised production for personal use. Overnight clandestine distilleries popped up, establishing themselves as big businesses, enabling one organisation to fund a meth maker to make a massive meth plant. Legislation in this case made illegal trafficking worse. Short of removing taxes and levies on alcohol, there's nothing anyone could do, except put more into policing.


Like it or not, the "Complete Harm Reduction movement" is still taking baby steps, although I feel impetus may pick up over the coming pre-election months. What we need to do IMO, is campaign politicians in a manner that doesn't scare, confuse or worry. This means not rocking the economic or moral boat too much. Rather, it is an appeal to recognise the large numbers of users and a chance to present the comparison figures regarding interventions, hospitalisations etc. Ideas need to be in the form of sound suggestions which can be feasibly introduced. We're not ready for a Psyphamacy just yet, and by the time we are, we'll probably want and get something very different to legal Heroin, meth, coke or E.


Just my opinion. I didn't address each of your points. I'd be here longer than I have.....cheers for taking the time endlesseulogy.
 
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^^^
Yeah, what he said.

Chemicals will never become legal because when things go bad on them they go very bad and the government can no afford to be held responsible for them. This constant level of tolerance is probably going to be around for a long time. So while it's technically illegal, for all practicality it is legal.
 
sorry this is stupid i dont know where to begin to say why drugs aren't legal..fuck'n hell.
 
I'd just like to point out that at the time of writing this thread had 5 replies and 141 views... ;)
 
Decriminalization of MDMA

OK, now, if ever any of you have had 5 minutes alone chatting with me, I've probably brought up this discussion before. But to all those I don't know, here's a chance for me to share my thoughts on the legalisation of ecstacy in Australia.

Statistics show that you are far more likely to die from taking drugs in the form of alcohol and cigarettes than you are from taking MDMA. Which begs me to ask the question, why is ecstacy not legal also? Ecstacy has always been considered a "friendly" drug whereas alcohol can cause some serious social problems.

I propose to make MDMA available via some sort of pharmaceutical registration scheme (ie: like now, with Pseudoephidrine, you must provide ID to the pharmacist). The government should award a contract to produce the drug to a major pharmaceutical company, such as SmithKlineBeecham, Pfizer and the like.

This would not only ensure that only pure MDMA was administered EVERY TIME, hence allowing consumers piece of mind as far as safety goes, but would also lower the price, as the production of the drug would no longer be underground (plus the whole supply and demand thing.... see my old econs teacher for more details).

Lets assume then that the end consumer pays $10 per pill. $5 of this could go to the pharmaceutical company and $5 to the government in the way of tax. The money made on this scheme could be invested into drug rehabilitation programs for some of the (for want of a better word) harder substances. New schools could be built, hospitals better staffed etc.

The only people losing out here would be the illegal drug maufacturers and dealers (dont mean any harm in this dealers out there... I think you're the lifeblood to society at present) - which are the people that law enforcers are targeting at the moment anyway.

I can't see any problem with this system, can anyone else? Love to hear your thoughts.

[Edit: threads merged; phase_dancer]
 
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I remember watching a program on SBS a few years ago ( i think it may have been about Amsteradam) and addicts were allowed to shoot up in public. It wasnt a pretty picture walking thru the park on a beautiful day only to be confronted with a sea of strung out people shooting up. Like how would you explain it to your kids?
 
^

Sounds like most city based outdoor parties.

But seriously drug legalization is a difficult debate as both sides have strong arguments. Its best to survive with what we have and do so in the least dangerous way possible.
 
Re: Decriminalization of MDMA

Bok Bok said:

Statistics show that you are far more likely to die from taking drugs in the form of alcohol and cigarettes than you are from taking MDMA. Which begs me to ask the question, why is ecstacy not legal also? Ecstacy has always been considered a "friendly" drug whereas alcohol can cause some serious social problems.

[Edit: threads merged; phase_dancer]

Statistics also show that your more likely to die in the car on the way to a rave then from taking drugs. But I would like to see you try and make cars illegal and drugs legal.
Also you have to consider the the majority of people out there what limits their intake, hence what limits drug abuse. I think for most people cost is what stops them. If you legalise pills to a certain dosage suddenly your 100mg pill becomes $2 a pop. So why not go out and have 20 of them this week for a laugh. This intern will cause a sharp rise in the number of psychotic episodes in the community, and hence be a bigger social burden both economically and ethically.
 
nuds , would you rather your kids have contact with the criminal underworld in order to get a hit of heroin? or the government, legally?
I think the answer is obvious.... drugs are always going to be taken, legal or not legal.. its time to face the facts and stop denying what is really going on.. prohibition dosnt work on any level..it is only making our community worse.. im sick of walking in certain suburbs in melbourne seeing heroin addicts beg on the street for loose change, while the fucking dealers sit around counting their cash like a smug buch of bastards.. while the crooked cops sit with them...all drug addicts should be handled the same way.. we should not distinguish between heroin addicts and alcoholics. its just heroin addicts have a harder time because of the illegality of heroin.. this just simply isnt fair..
 
I found it interesting what phase_dancer had to say, about legalising one drug, then suddenly people are trying to manufacture new drugs.
 
In regard to Sllip's comments Regarding abuse, I dont think peopl hainvg 20 would be aproblem. Amongs my group of friends we all find a point in the night when a pill wont do anymore why spend the money.
I know most people who want to keep going move on to something else. Well alcohol is the same when one pub closes, I go to another...
I agree the legalisation needs to be slow but it is frustrating to be a criminal for having some fun without harming others.
 
endlesseulogy, good point. As far as kids are concerned (particularly mine) it's all about education and educating our kids to make informed decisions. And I was about to say "know what it is your taking" BUT we never truly do know do we ? and yep you're right cause then we would know what we are putting into our bodies and not some concoction. I agree with wot u said about heroin addicts. That same show also showed the positive side of long term heroin addicts who when supplied with decent shit on a regular basis were actually able to go back and begin living a normal life, get a job, flat ect instead of resorting to begging and crime. They said that these long term addicts body would die if they stopped using. Its an interesting and emotive topic. And lastly...I'd love to be able to go to the chemist and get my pills but the downside it would be too easy to go overboard, well for me it would.
 
nuds said:
I remember watching a program on SBS a few years ago ( i think it may have been about Amsteradam) and addicts were allowed to shoot up in public. It wasnt a pretty picture walking thru the park on a beautiful day only to be confronted with a sea of strung out people shooting up. Like how would you explain it to your kids?

I'm pretty sure they were in Zurich, Switzerland. I remember watching taht doco. yes it was pretty full on. it looked like it was in a seedy part of town, not somewhere you'd be taking your kids to play footie in the park :D

They followed some of the junkies to their homes, to meet the family and stuff and talk about heroin addiction + the new programs run by the government etc.
 
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endlesseulogy said:
.. prohibition dosnt work on any level..

Well neither does legalisation, ie alcohol and ciggarettes.

If somebody want's something then they will get it, regardless of if it's legal or illegal. The only hope you can come across with legalisation is the amount of education in schools also increases, much the same as ciggarettes. The vibe they teach you in school is, yes you can smoke but it's going to mess you up pretty bad in the long run, and so most of my friends don't smoke. And very few smoke excessively.

And what about all your innocent drug dealers. Suddenly your going to put them out of work. Next thing you know you'll have mass rallies by dealers demanding that their jobs are protected!!
 
Groovstar said:
I'm pretty sure they were in Zurich, Switzerland. I remember watching taht doco. yes it was pretty full on. it looked like it was in a seedy part of town, not somewhere you'd be taking your kids to play footie in the park :D

They followed some of the junkies to their homes, to meet the family and stuff and talk about heroin addiction + the new programs run by the government etc.

Yeah I saw that too, I thought it was funny, where junkies have a collection of "ironing boards" as a "moblie tables" to get their gear ready, homeless junkies walking around with ironing boards. LOL. =D

yeah it was in switerland, but there's always many docmentries on SBS and always gets confused when ya trying to think "which country was that doco was based in?"

Urbie 8)
 
I thought the UN has some kind of sanction in place stopping complete legilisation of most drugs...
 
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