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Benzos Chronic (therapeutic) benzo use vs chronic Alcohol use

Notable points are subjective. This paper relates to the discussion at hand. I feel as if this whole thing is going over and over in circles as I stated before. Why dont you post some data from scientists and doctors that validate your posts as well. That is what this site is all about sir.
 
Alcohol destroys your liver. If you are an alcoholic abusing alcohol daily, it is a matter of time. I lost a cousin to liver cancer brought about by cirrhosis from years of alcohol abuse. Long term benzo therapy data is inconclusive to say the least.

The main difference? Benzos are PRESCRIBED. They are a medication and help people like me get through life after traumatic events. I have been on 4MG of Clonazepam for over a decade and without it I wouldn't even leave my bed. I usually take lower than the dose I am prescribed unless necessary. Alcohol is a literal poison and sure alcoholics will defend it versus any drug but that is a fact. Alcohol is one of the most toxic drugs in this world. Don't understand why people are running in circles about this.
 
Mr.Deeds said:
Notable points are subjective. This paper relates to the discussion at hand. I feel as if this whole thing is going over and over in circles as I stated before. Why dont you post some data from scientists and doctors that validate your posts as well. That is what this site is all about sir.
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I have been citing everything I've said, it was how I started off the thread as well. I don't really have anything left to validate. I was just wondering why health centers define a 'sweet spot' for low risk alcohol consumption but benzos have the stigma of always being bad, even at therapeutic doses?
 
Alcohol is known for its seizure-inducing withdrawals and PAWS aswell. It is basically a liquid benzo but it fries the DNA of every organ it travels through on the way down
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No, it's not. It's a completely different animal. Seizures from alcohol withdrawal only occur in people drinking large amounts and the PAWS from alcohol is not even in the same ballpark as serious benzo withdrawal, unless again you are talking about people consuming ungodly amounts (and even then Ive never heard of alcoholic suffering severe protracted withdrawal 5 years sober the way some benzo users do).

The comparison I was making was between moderate alcohol use (usually defined as one or two drinks per day) but up to a few beers let's say and daily therapeutic benzo usage levels like 1.5 miligrams of klonopin per day. The harms of benzos are vastly greater than the harms of alcohol in this case.

With alcohol, the toxic effects are extremely dose related. I regard alcohol as a relatively safe and benign substance at low doses, but the dangers rise exponentially as the dose rises and so large amounts are extremely harmful. Benzos on the other hand, are relatively safe and benign when used sporadically or for a very short time (often even in large doses), but the dangers rise exponentionally when they are taken daily for any extended period.

So with benzos, it's the length of usage that is the biggest determining factor whereas with alcohol it's the dose.

If you doubt what I am telling you is true just do some research on benzo withdrawal. You will entire websites like benzobuddies filled with people trying to recover from these drugs. They often have to taper for months or years and then spend months or years recovering after that and some never fully recover. I withdrew from benzos 10 years ago and it was horrendous, I won't even go into what those drugs did to me.

You just don't see this with alcohol. I challenge you to find me even one person who became ill for years because they stopped drinking their nightly glass of wine. Remember alcohol is one of the most commonly used substances on the planet, there are far more alcohol users than benzo users. If alcohol was causing effects like this the internet should be full of people complaining about how their brain is ruined because they stopped having a couple beers after work. You never see it.

I guess the takeaway is if you want to avoid the harms of benzos, only use them sporadically and if you want to avoid the harms of alcohol only use low doses, though it can be safely used more frequently than benzos as long as you stick to low to moderate doses.
 
BzCurio said:
I have been citing everything I've said, it was how I started off the thread as well. I don't really have anything left to validate. I was just wondering why health centers define a 'sweet spot' for low risk alcohol consumption but benzos have the stigma of always being bad, even at therapeutic doses?
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Because they are, as I tried to explain above. There is a safe level of alcohol exposure for most of the population at least (some people should not drink obviously) but there is no safe level of daily benzo exposure. When benzos are taken every day - even in small amounts that barely even give you a buzz, there is still a risk they will cause changes to your brain that result in what is called protracted withdrawal syndrome which can last months, years or even indefinitely in some cases.

I have spent a lot of time in the benzo withdrawal community and I've seen so many cases of people prescribed what you would think was a minuscule dose, like .5 miligrams of klonopin per day, who had hellish experiences coming off it. They weren't even getting buzzed, at least with alcohol you have to drink enough to get buzzed before you get withdrawal.
 
as i was told my by doctor when discussing benzos, being a doctor for 35 years he looked at me and simply stated : this is alcohol in a pill form. so take what you will from that statement
both leave you with a potentially fatal withdrawal depending on your use, so theres that.
 
I have read over the thread again and am still confused here. We are comparing inconclusive data on long-term effects of Benzo use, to conclusive data on the effects of Alcohol. Again, Alcohol is a literal POISON. It is the worst drug of all in my eyes. I have been on Benzos since watching a man die 10 feet from me in the military over a decade ago. They quite literally have saved my life. I get no high or euphoria, but thet allow me to function and not have memories as vivid as I once did.

The only valid speaking point I see here, is, the withdrawals of both Alcohol and Benzos being potentially fatal. You know what is funny though? When withdrawals from Alcohol begin, inpatient doctors give the patients BENZOS! And let us not forget that SSRI medications can cause seizures and even death if stopped suddenly at a high enough dose.

Alcohol is a poison that damages the liver. It WILL cause liver disease and cirrhosis if you abuse it everyday. There is zero conclusive evidence about any long-term negative effects of Benzodiazepine use.
 
FutureReference said:
I have read over the thread again and am still confused here. We are comparing inconclusive data on long-term effects of Benzo use, to conclusive data on the effects of Alcohol. Again, Alcohol is a literal POISON. It is the worst drug of all in my eyes. I have been on Benzos since watching a man die 10 feet from me in the military over a decade ago. They quite literally have saved my life. I get no high or euphoria, but thet allow me to function and not have memories as vivid as I once did.

The only valid speaking point I see here, is, the withdrawals of both Alcohol and Benzos being potentially fatal. You know what is funny though? When withdrawals from Alcohol begin, inpatient doctors give the patients BENZOS! And let us not forget that SSRI medications can cause seizures and even death if stopped suddenly at a high enough dose.

Alcohol is a poison that damages the liver. It WILL cause liver disease and cirrhosis if you abuse it everyday. There is zero conclusive evidence about any long-term negative effects of Benzodiazepine use.
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They give alcoholics benzos because if they do not, the withdrawing alcoholic can suffer seizure, stroke, ive even read of one having a brain aneurism its some wicked shit, i went through a bad time losing my dog, i drank anywhere from a half litre to 2 bottles of hard liquor/day the days where i consumed more was because i was using cocaine too, i quite literally had bought a silver platter and had a good 20 gram pile of cocaine sitting on it with rows of different sized lines ready to go for a solid 6 months till i confessed to my doctor what i was doing, he placed me on benzos and told me not to stop drinking cold turkey, but i never suffered any wds thanks to a good doctor. I still have that silver platter but unfortunately i smoke my coke now :/
But yes, alcohol is just fucking poison but it has its uses and can be sociable but to get into a grueling habbit of drinking copious amounts isnt wise
 
Zonxx said:
They give alcoholics benzos because if they do not, the withdrawing alcoholic can suffer seizure, stroke, ive even read of one having a brain aneurism its some wicked shit, i went through a bad time losing my dog, i drank anywhere from a half litre to 2 bottles of hard liquor/day the days where i consumed more was because i was using cocaine too, i quite literally had bought a silver platter and had a good 20 gram pile of cocaine sitting on it with rows of different sized lines ready to go for a solid 6 months till i confessed to my doctor what i was doing, he placed me on benzos and told me not to stop drinking cold turkey, but i never suffered any wds thanks to a good doctor. I still have that silver platter but unfortunately i smoke my coke now :/
But yes, alcohol is just fucking poison but it has its uses and can be sociable but to get into a grueling habbit of drinking copious amounts isnt wise
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I'm glad you're off of it man. I lost my cousin to liver cancer caused from cirrhosis due to extreme drinking. Honestly I would think smoking cocaine is a better alternative anyways. I have many friends who destroyed their noses over the years so while it may be more addictive when smoked I truly believe it isn't as harsh on the body. I am glad you never withdrew from benzos either my friend. But seriously, fuck alcohol. It doesn't compare to the highs of drugs with less toxicity anyway!
 
I wouldn't say ZERO conclusive evidence, as the paper I posted has have evidence of negative consequences of long term benzo use. The evidence of long term CHRONIC alcohol use as stated in the title of this thread, is just clearly worse for the body than THERAPEUTIC long-term benzo use. There is overwhelming evidence of this. Nobody is saying that drinking everyday at small amounts is going to cause serious harm, although harm will be done (albeit small if done in small amounts). And benzos have there own consequences when used it the long-term, and evidence has been provided in this thread showing the dangers of long term benzo use at therapeutic dosages. But to say that a daily moderate dose of a benzo is going to cause more damage than a person drinking everyday at the amounts and frequency which would apply to the chronic drinker is wrong.
People on this site come here to find answers, and this thread was an extremely good topic until it circled around on itself for the umpteenth time. It is not about chronic drinking vs therapeutic benzo use anymore.
 
Mr.Deeds said:
I wouldn't say ZERO conclusive evidence, as the paper I posted has have evidence of negative consequences of long term benzo use. The evidence of long term CHRONIC alcohol use as stated in the title of this thread, is just clearly worse for the body than THERAPEUTIC long-term benzo use. There is overwhelming evidence of this. Nobody is saying that drinking everyday at small amounts is going to cause serious harm, although harm will be done (albeit small if done in small amounts). And benzos have there own consequences when used it the long-term, and evidence has been provided in this thread showing the dangers of long term benzo use at therapeutic dosages. But to say that a daily moderate dose of a benzo is going to cause more damage than a person drinking everyday at the amounts and frequency which would apply to the chronic drinker is wrong.
People on this site come here to find answers, and this thread was an extremely good topic until it circled around on itself for the umpteenth time. It is not about chronic drinking vs therapeutic benzo use anymore.
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What do you believe to be conclusive effects of long-term benzo use? I have researched this for years and have found nothing in regards to any negative effects for those who take dosages to combat PTSD. Again, it has been 12 years for me post-military and nothing as much as blurred memories or any negative effects have been experienced. I would definitely consider over a decade long-term use.

It does seem we are in agreement about the toxicity of alcohol and how it cannot even be compared to Benzodiazepine use, aside from withdrawals. There is no beneficial use for alcohol in high doses. I am on 4mg of Clonazepam and while not particularly high, it is definitely high enough. It just is amazing to me that some people here refuse to acknowledge the GUARANTEED liver damage that abusing alcohol does. I have known people who have taken in excess of 50mg of Alprazolam who just slept for 48 hours. I also know people in their 20's who died of Alcohol Poisoning. It just frustrates me is all. Alcohol is a literal Poison and I cannot justify anybody abusing it. It will kill you.
 
burn out said:
With alcohol, the toxic effects are extremely dose related. I regard alcohol as a relatively safe and benign substance at low doses, but the dangers rise exponentially as the dose rises and so large amounts are extremely harmful. Benzos on the other hand, are relatively safe and benign when used sporadically or for a very short time (often even in large doses), but the dangers rise exponentionally when they are taken daily for any extended period.

So with benzos, it's the length of usage that is the biggest determining factor whereas with alcohol it's the dose.
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Similar mechanisms of action and side effects in withdrawal, but taking a benzo at a therapeutic dose daily is more dangerous than 2-3 beers a night?

burn out said:
If you doubt what I am telling you is true just do some research on benzo withdrawal. You will entire websites like benzobuddies filled with people trying to recover from these drugs. They often have to taper for months or years and then spend months or years recovering after that and some never fully recover. I withdrew from benzos 10 years ago and it was horrendous, I won't even go into what those drugs did to me.

You just don't see this with alcohol. I challenge you to find me even one person who became ill for years because they stopped drinking their nightly glass of wine.
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I went over withdrawal in my main post. Withdrawal from benzos at therapeutic levels is often asymptomatic, from the doctor that developed the method herself, stating that fears of withdrawal are often overblown due to horror stories from heavy abusers/street addicts that may have gone through rapid detox by a bad doctor or ran out of supply. Yes, horror stories will gravitate towards sites like benzo buddies but there are already anecdotes in this thread of asymptomatic withdrawal. The people who tapered off without issue aren't online sharing their experience. This is true for all drugs. Read some SSRI horror stories, yet they are some of the most prescribed medications. There used to be a site called paxilprogress, filled with people struggling to get off the SSRI paxil.

We are not talking about a "Nightly glass of wine", that was not the comparison here. It was the outlined "low risk" limit, which is 14 beers a week for men.
 
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burn out said:
Because they are, as I tried to explain above. There is a safe level of alcohol exposure for most of the population at least (some people should not drink obviously) but there is no safe level of daily benzo exposure. When benzos are taken every day - even in small amounts that barely even give you a buzz, there is still a risk they will cause changes to your brain that result in what is called protracted withdrawal syndrome which can last months, years or even indefinitely in some cases.

I have spent a lot of time in the benzo withdrawal community and I've seen so many cases of people prescribed what you would think was a minuscule dose, like .5 miligrams of klonopin per day, who had hellish experiences coming off it. They weren't even getting buzzed, at least with alcohol you have to drink enough to get buzzed before you get withdrawal.
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You keep saying the word buzz, which makes be think you were seeking their use recreationally. The few people I've talked to saying they are withdrawing badly from their "0.5mg script" weren't actually taking 0.5mg.

Alcohol and benzos both alter gene expression with daily use. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4785873/ & https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9586850

As @FutureReference pointed out, perhaps there is no hard evidence of lasting withdrawals from long term alcohol use because it only takes about a solid 10 years of moderate-heavy drinking to start to damage the liver beyond repair. At that point any withdrawal "symptom" may be attributed to the degrading organ.


Also, yes, alcohol is lumped in with drugs that cause protracted withdrawal: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19403807
 
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@BzCurio , your title talks about chronic drinkers. Those who fall under the category of chronic drinkers are not the 2-3 beers a night. A chronic drinker will continue to drink to keep alcohol in their system. Just as a chronic benzo user, therapeutic dose or not, will use benzos to keep a constant level of drug in their body. To drink chronically would mean to maintain a a level of alcohol in the body if you are going to compare the two. So like many have already said, it is worse to drink chronically than to take benzos at a therapeutic dose daily. Your question has been answered several times. You are not wrong in saying that that chronic benzo use has its risks, you and others including myself have provided data for that too.
 
Mr.Deeds said:
@BzCurio , your title talks about chronic drinkers. Those who fall under the category of chronic drinkers are not the 2-3 beers a night. A chronic drinker will continue to drink to keep alcohol in their system. Just as a chronic benzo user, therapeutic dose or not, will use benzos to keep a constant level of drug in their body. To drink chronically would mean to maintain a a level of alcohol in the body if you are going to compare the two. So like many have already said, it is worse to drink chronically than to take benzos at a therapeutic dose daily. Your question has been answered several times. You are not wrong in saying that that chronic benzo use has its risks, you and others including myself have provided data for that too.
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Caffeine consumption is considered chronic if you drink coffee every morning as part of your routine. Drinking 2-3 beers a night is chronic by definition. Xanax and Alcohol come close in terms of action duration, this would be like saying nightly Xanax is not chronic use.
 
I am done with this thread. You are obviously not going to quit until you are told you are correct. You have been given plenty of info. 4 whole pages now. Take it or leave it.
 
Warning (0pt)
Mr.Deeds said:
I am done with this thread. You are obviously not going to quit until you are told you are correct. You have been given plenty of info. 4 whole pages now. Take it or leave it.
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There's nothing to be correct about, we have just had a few people pop in that appear to not have fully read the original post. So we go in circles. You also just equated chronic alcohol consumption with being a 24/7 drunk, which is all I was pointing out. We were all just bringing information to the table.


Yes, both are worse than nothing used chronically but it is plausible that maintaining a therapeutic low dose of a benzo is just as sustainable (and better for your body as a whole) as Health Organization proclaimed "low risk drinking" of 14 beers a week.
 
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BzCurio said:
Alcohol is known for its seizure-inducing withdrawals and PAWS aswell. It is basically a liquid benzo but it fries the DNA of every organ it travels through on the way down



- I believe your ability to handle your own anxiety at it's peak becomes diminished with long term use. All your natural reactions to mitigate that state or even a panic attack are sort of forgotten. From what I've read about PAWS, it isn't a consistent condition. It comes and goes in waves after long term use but I've generally only see it present in benzo/alcohol abusers.

- Damage? No. Forcing the brain to make changes? Most likely. There is evidence both alcohol and benzos change DNA transcription. However, cited in my first post, there is no literature that exists as of 2012 (and benzos are old) that they ever lose their anxiolytic properties. 'Massive damage' would be an overstatement unless you're taking high doses multiple times a day. Acetaminophen (Tylenol) can cause permanent brain damage and paralysis at high doses, but we don't take those doses.

- I don't doubt the early onset dementia/Alzheimers claims around long term benzo use (as well as alcohol use). In just the short period I've used them my memory has become pretty fragmented even when they're not in my system, but that may also be because I have more responsibilities to keep track of now. But I'll gladly trade 10 years of my older years if it means being happier now.


1. Half life of Klonopin is roughly 30-40 hours. For any drugs it takes about 7x halflifes for it to be undetectable in your blood stream. With that said, at about 3x half life the concentration of the drug is considered negligible. I can last about 3 days with no Klonopin at all before I feel rebound anxiety. I can tell it's the Klonopin as one of the symptoms of anxiety that I rarely get is jaw clenching and neck tensing, and those will present themselves. That's when I play with the dose and see what will get rid of it, in most cases just 0.25mg will ease it. So I keep Klonopin active in my system chronically at a ridiculously low dose (0.12-0.25mg) until a day comes that I need to pull out the full 1-2mg. I see this as better than tapering off entirely because I have no desire to stop taking it.


2. I get about 200mg of caffeine a day, but I am very likely ADHD (was actually just tested for it, but will refuse amphetamines/other dopamine releasing agents) as my afternoon 80mg can nearly put me to sleep. I largely believe my deepest bout of depression stemmed from an attempt to quit caffeine, there are many anecdotal claims of this phenomena.

It can give me anxiety but not in a negative way, it usually ups me and makes me feel motivated and energetic, not an anxious mess.

Caffeine will impact the effectiveness of the benzo if they're both taken at the same time, but if I'm pushing something like 2.5mg and whatever social event I needed it for is over I will drink caffeine to snap me out of the fogginess.

One thing worth mentioning here is caffeine tolerance, ironically, will make benzos work better by increasing the density of benzo binding sites https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437321/



3. Same way I always have. Avoid social situations, not attend events, destroy relationships as a result, you probably know the drill.

I have tried Lyrica (Pregabalin) 300mg 2x a day and felt nothing from it. I have been offers a medical card but it will be of no use as (based on prior experiences with various methods) I am a completely non responder to MJ.

I refuse to take SSRI's due to the severe sexual side effects and emotional blunting, and the European Medicines Agency recently put out a mandatory black box warning on all SSRI/SNRI's that these side effects may be permanent. Suspected to be caused by DNA damage: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6083487/
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That's unfortunate that you feel you'll never be able to handle your anxiety off of benzos.

I REALLY hope the same is not true for me.

I'd rather be on an SSRI that worked instead of my Klonopin despite those risks, and I am already on an SSRI that doesn't work well anyways, so that's a non-issue, and I don't get negative sexual side effects from mine.

I hope that if I'm ever able to get off my Klonopin I can regain my ability to deal with stress without it.

Do you really believe that it's IMPOSSIBLE for a person who has been on long term benzos to re-learn to cope with anxiety off of it even after years?
 
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