Heroin Can veins collapse from exterior damage?

[Morphoid]

Just a quick one. I have had this happen to me a couple of times before and thought it somewhat self-explanatory so I never bothered to post about it. However, recently I am unsure as to whether my initial assumptions were correct and hoped to probe the orifice of your collective and substantial knowledge (apologies for the disturbing metaphor). I am fully versed and educated on the mechanisms behind veins collapsing, be it from repeated trauma and physical damage to the same small area or the repeated introduction of highly caustic or otherwise irritating/damaging substances into the vein.

But is it possible to collapse a vein without actually puncturing it? Or at least, without recently puncturing it?

i.e. Somebody goes to administer ~100mg/1mL heroin ascorbate solution into their cephalic vein (which has been used before, albeit very rarely and not for some time, with no problem) but for one reason or another, misses my a minuscule distance. They do not realise and subsequently inject 1mL of the aforementioned solution as an unintentional bolus right next to the vein in the arm. There is a degree of swelling, burning rash and discomfort (all typical for a miss of this type) but here is the thing. The vein, which was not punctured or touched remains forever more - unusable.

It is that the damage to the outer wall of the vein by the acidic solution caused it to swell and subsequently seal itself shut, causing collapse? Or similarly, the surrounding tissue affected by the miss, for want of a better term, squashes the vein shut and causes it to collapse.

I would be immensely grateful for any knowledge or insight into the matter. Many, many thanks!

 

[Wrongguy]

Can't help you on specifics but my personal experience is that missing is worse on your veins in the particular spot of the miss than actually hitting it... have used spots for long periods of time but missed and after the miss had the spot become unusable for a very long time and even permanently

 

[LaGaFàNi]

Missing right next to your vein is actually quite bad ; even the "drip" of pulling back can cause this => if the missed shot/remains become inflammated like right on the vein spot, thou shall definitly acquire an inti-inflammatory and anti-bacterial creme and use it like more than what your skin can absorb. I once ignored such a miss and got something ressembling phlebitis as the inflammation became a sub-catenious infection, and the inflammation had "weakened" the vein's "barrier", wich caused the infection to develop along the vein, from my elbow to my wrist. Luckily it didn't went up into the vein.
"Overdosed" on paracetamol (6g/24 first hours, then like 2g/2h when it got worse) and ibuprofen (1200mg first 24h) but stopped taking ibu as it seems to enable small tissue regeneration... The doctor I met on 3rd day (should've went way sooner) recommended some ibu/di-ethylamine/anti-bacterial etc creme.

The inflammation also "collapsed" the vein, which had me flipping out;

magical solution: force your blood to flow! Kill yourself with pushups, lifting weights (as long and as heavy as possible, litterally kill it), at the same time covering your arm as much as possible to retain heat - using your muscles=> blood demand and hightened temp=> hightened temp better blood flow => more draining of the inflammatory fluids and faster recovery of your vein. Take 20-30min long showers just applying 40°C water right on the inflammationt; then repeat exhausting arm-muscle wrecking. Force yourself, defo worth that magic entrance into your bloodstream

 

[Morphoid]

Yeah, it's certainly an interesting issue. It seems to me that a concentrated area of highly acidic solution injected around a vein, which then sits there, damaging the surrounding tissue AND the lining of the vein is bound to cause severe damage, surely at least greatly restricting blood flow through that particular section of the vein in the short term anyway.

 

[LaGaFàNi]

Yup. You alo might wan't to add the strict minimal amount of acid to your #3, that'll also be better for the inside of your veins.

 

[Morphoid]

Oh absolutely, you're right there. I have always been extremely vigilant on this matter but some people are so profligate with their citric or vit-c it's ridiculous.

I recently observed a friend cooking up a bag and adding an entire sachet (3.5 grams I think) of ascorbic acid into his spoon! The gear we have at the moment is of INCREDIBLE purity. And I don't use that term lightly. It's amazing stuff (thought my tolerance is suffering as a result). Subsequently, I only use perhaps 500mg of ascorbic to dissolve, sometimes even less.

 

[Wrongguy]

WTF... add 3.5 grams of something to one shot..?..I would have thought that would turn it into a paste or even dryer and thick.... no thanks

I will have to find out what this adding stuff to a shot is about, I've never ever heard of such a thing...I guess I am not seeing the point of doing so, I may be sheltered... maybe the stuff around here is just different than what your referring to

 

[Artificial Emotion]

To the people using citric acid, I would use vitamin C as it kinder to the veins than citric. As said, missing a shot is actually worse for your veins than properly hitting them with a shot but switching to vit c rather than citric is something you can do to cause less damage if you do miss.

If you use the right amount of citric it is no worse than vit c but like the guy above said, a lot of people use more than they're suppposed to. In fact I'd say most people end up using more than they're supposed to!

 

[jamesBrown]

WTF... add 3.5 grams of something to one shot..��..I would have thought that would turn it into a paste or even dryer and thick.... no thanks

I will have to find out what this adding stuff to a shot is about, I've never ever heard of such a thing...I guess I am not seeing the point of doing so, I may be sheltered... maybe the stuff around here is just different than what your referring to

I was the same as you for a long time. I had NO IDEA that people in other parts of the country/world had to add citric or vit c to their heroin in order to properly prepare a shot.
Where I live(and most likely you as well) the heroin doesn't need to be mixed with anything other than water to make a shot. I'm in the southern US and black tar heroin(BTH) is King here when it comes to scoring H(it comes right across the Mexican border- And no wall is gonna stop that Trump, you piece of shit "president"). And since BTH is just heroin that hasn't been refined from opium to the extent that other forms of heroin have(like china white)...it retains more of the alkaloids/morphine derivatives that were in the original material(the Opium). Basically, BTH is heroin which is cheaper for the cartels to make because they stop refining it after acetylation.

So in a way, BTH is "dirtier" or less "pure"(not necessarily less potent, but less pure) than most, if not all other forms of heroin. But I don't see this as a bad thing...it just means you're getting a broader range of opioids every time you use it compared to say white heroin which is MUCH more difficult/dangerous and expensive to manufacture. This is the reason Central and South American heroin producers/cartels choose to stop refining/purifying after acetylation...which means BTH isn't technically heroin(It's more like 'partially refined opium').

 

[Bagseed]

didn't make a calculation, but half a gram of ascorbic acid is definitely overkill for one shot of heroin...

 

[creation does this]

I'm no scientist but I use to shoot a lot of dope and from what I know if you miss that close to the vein your arm (or injection site) is likely to swell around the vein suffocating and collapsing it absolutely what I wanna know is how you don't t notice the miss a whole cc without pulling out and recalibrating usually when I miss I miss 2 1/2-5 units before it burn so dann bad I can't even bear it

 

[Wrongguy]

Interesting. .... thanks Jamesbrown I appreciate the knowledge and it's nice to hear first hand stuff. I briefly looked it up also (this adding chemical/compounds and what not) it sounds way different than anything I'm used to... hey what ever it takes I guess ☺? Yes I'm similar to your first hand knowledge, never myself saw or heard of it around here.

Everything just dissolves into water around these parts here, no chemical/compounds or what ever else to make it happen. Hell not even heat is needed around here to make it dissolve. Apparently here at BL what is around my parts is reffered to as #4.... Its always just known as herion around me, I've actually only saw tar once (and that was a weird fluke that was just given to me) in all my years, so it's 99.99% #4 around me (Middle North East US) If it's not just clear tinted water when its done and prepared then that is not at very good sign at all. And if there's any cut left at all left behind then its not very promising sign either... theres lots that leave nothing after being sucked up.

And about what creation was saying, I don't think it has to do with the vein actually being "choked" off, but the swelling isn't enough to actually cut off the circulation, let alone to make the vein die (if that is even possible).... I think it has more to do with reactions to chemicals.... Im not real postive though, anything is possible I guess...

Speaking of veins dieing, I cringe thinking about it because every time I picture the few times I've literally watched veins explode in my hand or wrist and vein would swell some like a water balloon and then "pop" sound and they snap back like rubber bands up my into arm to who knows where, they were then gone.... always happened when nurses would try to set IV lines and not get them in right and then hook a 5cc huge barrel to the bad IV and plunge that stuff like they were unclogging a toilet or my veins.... they always told me they will grow back, but they come back a little deeper... wonder if anything could come back from that though... makes my veins hurt just thinking about it...

 

[jamesBrown]

Interesting. .... thanks Jamesbrown I appreciate the knowledge and it's nice to hear first hand stuff. I briefly looked it up also (this adding chemical/compounds and what not) it sounds way different than anything I'm used to

No problem...glad to be of service.

Everything just dissolves into water around these parts here, no chemical/compounds or what ever else to make it happen. Hell not even heat is needed around here to make it dissolve. Apparently here at BL what is around my parts is reffered to as #4.... Its always just known as herion around me, I've actually only saw tar once (and that was a weird fluke that was just given to me) in all my years, so it's 99.99% #4 around me (Middle North East US) If it's not just clear tinted water when its done and prepared then that is not at very good sign at all. And if there's any cut left at all left behind then its not very promising sign either... theres lots that leave nothing after being sucked up.

Like I said, where I live we pretty much only have BTH....and VERY VERY RARELY some china white comes around(once every few years or so in decent quantities).
BUT...black tar heroin isn't always a black/dark brown sticky substance that REEKS of vinegar(from the refining process). There is also heroin around here that we all call "Street Ready".....and all that is, is when you take BTH and blend it in a coffee grinder with lactose(usually like 1 part BTH to 3-5 parts lactose). This makes the gooey/sticky/blackish BTH turn into a medium to light brown powder that can easily be snorted, smoked, injected, or plugged. And people often mistake this "street ready" BTH for some other kind of heroin...like maybe #4...I'm not sure. There seems to be some confusion as to exactly what the different numbers/types of heroin are/mean.

So...after reading what you wrote, I think it is VERY possible, if not likely, that the heroin you get that you say is called "#4", could simply be BTH mixed with lactose. And my guess is that the one time you were given BTH, was actually just a situation where you were given the pure product your dealers buy(BTH) before they stomp on it with lactose. Although I could be wrong. It's hard to say since I wasn't there.

 

[Wrongguy]

Whats around here may be hard to describe but i can give it a try....comes in usally pretty hard chunks big and small that are white, tan and some darker light varieties. Of course theres always others floating around sometimes and variety over the years... but i liked the stuff that was hard, meaning it more fractures than crumbles... i always found that better... it can be crushed into a fine power (always real dry no stickiness/gooyness at all) and done any way you would like, never heard of anyone smoking it tho... from what I read of #4 it's definitely #4 (I think) and definitely not tar... ... there is pretty much no tar here that I know of... O an could keep it in your pocket all day in summer with zero problems as long as sealed...

it's hard to describe in words sometimes, I'm sure you know what I mean

What does that sound like to you...? I really want input, i never heard of #4 till i came here...that was a new term i had to look up too, and its a popular one here at BL....always thought it either was tar or herion. But I can remember hearing the term powder herion, even tho I usally stayed away from powder and stuck to chunks, less chance of being stepped on... . I know both can be called herion, but for around here that distinction was always enough although never needed because of tars rare nature here...idk

 

[jamesBrown]

Whats around here may be hard to describe but i can give it a try....comes in usally pretty hard chunks big and small that are white, tan and some darker light varieties. Of course theres always others floating around sometimes and variety over the years... but i liked the stuff that was hard, meaning it more fractures than crumbles... i always found that better... it can be crushed into a fine power (always real dry no stickiness/gooyness at all) and done any way you would like, never heard of anyone smoking it tho... from what I read of #4 it's definitely #4 (I think) and definitely not tar... ... there is pretty much no tar here that I know of... O an could keep it in your pocket all day in summer with zero problems as long as sealed...

it's hard to describe in words sometimes, I'm sure you know what I mean

What does that sound like to you...? I really want input, i never heard of #4 till i came here...that was a new term i had to look up too, and its a popular one here at BL....always thought it either was tar or herion. But I can remember hearing the term powder herion, even tho I usally stayed away from powder and stuck to chunks, less chance of being stepped on... . I know both can be called herion, but for around here that distinction was always enough although never needed because of tars rare nature here...idk

Yea, the heroin "chunks" or "rocks" that you mentioned that break up/crumble into powder is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. That is what happens when you mix BTH with lactose. It turns from tar into a dry powder...but the powder almost always forms chunks of heroin "rocks" because dealers compact the powder themselves, or it turns into these harder crumbly rocks all on their own bc of being in a tight space or inside someone's pocket(which provides body heat that helps form these chunks).
Also...the ratio of BTH to lactose can massively affect how easily and how quickly the powder turns "solid". The more lactose used the more dry and powdery the final substance is....and the less lactose used, the more likely the heroin will quickly/easily turn solid(but still able to be crushed into powder.

I actually used to buy BTH and blend it with lactose to sell(I am not proud of this). But that experience gives me unique insight on this subject.

I guess what I'm saying is...it's VERY difficult to tell exactly what kind of heroin you have(especially over the internet) since "street ready" BTH seems to have many(if not all) of the same qualities of #4 H. Black Tar Heroin can be made to look like MANY different types of heroin ranging from off-white powder/chunks to straight up pure gooey, black/dark brown tar....and everything in between.



*You say "I usally stayed away from powder and stuck to chunks"....but "chunks"(as you have said yourself) easily break down into powder. You just have to crush it. In fact, the "chunks" actually ARE powder, it's just been compacted...like a chunk of dirt that you think is a rock bc it has hardened. You obviously can't snort a chunk/rock of heroin so you crush it into a powder so it can be snorted or even injected. You can also smoke it but I HIGHLY recommend that you don't smoke ANY kind of heroin. It is not worth it. It wastes SO much heroin and it's HIGHLY damaging to your lungs.*

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/391848-different-kinds-of-4-and-tar-heroin
...all three pictures of different looking heroin in the first post of ^this thread could be BTH based heroin(cut with lactose). I know that this is a possibility because I have made powdered heroin from BTH that looked exactly like all of those. Although the first pic of the "tar like" heroin looks like very low quality tar. In my experience, high quality BTH is less "formed" into some kind of shape and more of just a blackish gooey substance that should be kept in the freezer to help prevent the sticky-ass-shit from getting stuck to everything.

 

[Wrongguy]

Yea but low level shitty grade cutting can be done so much easier on powder... they break down the chunks to powder and cut it.... I know it can be "re rocked" but it's pretty hard, especially it's easy to just leave it powder... of course this is no full proof method by any means...I've never heard of powder turning to chunk in your pocket, and never had it happen to me, to a soft or hard chunk... and the kind of hard chunks I'm talking about would take alot of pressure or come kind of cooking and dry out to achieve (I would guess).

The really hard stuff i would call anything but crumbly and it "cracks" when you crush it, and it is sorta easy but definitely takes some work but nothing crazy, just a large amount of pressure and maybe some cutting into smaller peices, some easier than others...... of course there is the softer stuff around that is a little easier.... you know how that stuff goes, so many different variations . That link the second picture looks like a softer verity, but I've saw stuff similar to it

All I know is I've known alot of people who used and have myself and never ever heard of tar in my city in all my years (besides the one off time I mentioned), and I've know alot of people over the years....I live in a very Northen big city, if that helps any, I know I always heard tar was more the southern border area and out west, but it's apparently been spreading out to many other areas. All hearsay and roumors tho. But have yet to hear about or see it here, but I'm sure it could be somewhere, but there is soooo much of the other stuff here that nobody wants the tar so through supply and demand the market is not here (or very small) for it as far as I know.... idk

I guess anything is possible, and I didnt know the stuff you described was how it worked with tar.. very interesting... thanks for the insight ... I'm really wondering now, cause as I said I have never heard of tar up here... idk is the lactose easily water soluble?

 

[Wrongguy]

You said it was a rinse and only a very small amount missed, was it pretty much just water or was it actually colored, cloudy, other things in it?

Cause any miss is bad, how bad depends but I would not expect any life threatening reaction from a miss alone, not saying it couldnt happen but in my experience it's not a immediate life threatening situation. I don't think water would really hurt anything (it very well might I'm not positive) but a miss with other things in it will be much worse... I'm not sure what causes a miss to do this but I know what happens when you do miss... of course as with anything, it happens with varying degrees of severity, sometimes almost nothing happens but usally something does (swelling, pain, redness... ect.) and from experience I can tell you it can make it much much much harder (if not impossible) to hit there again. Sometimes it comes back with time and sometimes it does not...there are so many variables it's hard to say what will or will not happen... but one thing is for sure it's not good for you

My theroy is veins don't actually disappear they just become much smaller and much harder if not impossible to hit. They (doctors and nurses) say veins come back eventually but they will be deeper (and possibly smaller) not sure if there is truth in this statement but that's what nurses and doctors have told me before. But regardless it will never be as good as it once was...

Again not sure why this happens but it does, probably because introducing forgin things to a localized area is very bad, much worse than it spreading out through the body (like when you don't miss) Still it makes me cringe at the thought if this happens in this small localized spot then what is happening with the rest of my body all the times I don't miss... (rhetorical question, not sure I really want to know.... ?

The best thing you can do if you miss is to leave that spot alone for a while, like a week or more before trying there again if you really want or need to...

 

[jamesBrown]

The best thing you can do if you miss is to leave that spot alone for a while, like a week or more before trying there again if you really want or need to...

...in the interest of harm reduction, the best thing he can do is seek professional medical attention. Which is honestly what I would recommend.
But since there is a 95% chance this will not happen for obvious reasons, apply heat immediately after you miss for a couple hours(this helps reduce inflammation) and then, as Wrongguy said, leave that area alone until it has completely healed(a few weeks is best, if you inject there at all ever again).
Just make sure to keep a close eye on it, and at the first sign that your symptoms are getting worse, SEEK MEDICAL ATTENTION IMMEDIATELY. Don't think...just get help.

 

[Wrongguy]

Ok i may have not stated that very well, there are many better things you can do, including but not limited to seeking professional help

But the easiest thing you can do would have been more appropriate... I've never experienced any bad medical situations from missing but I may be lucky.... I myself have never gotten an infection from a miss but that doesn't mean anything really (to many variables), I may be lucky.... don't take chances

But to rephrase... the easiest thing (that I found to work) you can do when you miss is to not try to hit there for a week or so minimum, but the longer the better, then if you must you can try again after that time.. although it may or may not be possible to hit there .. if an infection becomes apparent then you should get professional help...

I know all to well about stupid unhealthy habbits, for me the worder WTF i was thinking worst decisions usally came when I got real sick...I would be rinseing a pile of old used cottons hoping for relief. Sounds ridiculous I know, but the things one will do because of that drug, it's horrible.

I am gonna make myself sound soo horribly ridiculous right now (Ill share to maybe help someone) but the worst for me was when I got a script of roxy, I never did pills before and didn't know what I was doing. I was sick so i was washing that nasty paste shit left behind after doing it so many times hoping for something and would be feeling the binders and shit in my lungs for a day after, coughing trying to get something out and I also would get what I can only describe as a pill powder sickness, I would be shaking uncontrollably and cold as hell with like three blankets on sitting by the heater feeling like absolute garbage and dope sick on top of it. This lasted at least an hour or two.. it was absolutely horrible. I didn't miss either for this. I never really shot pills only herion and didnt have any idea what I was doing. Nor did I care, when your that sick there is only one thought on your mind, and that's getting better.... This is sooo bad and nobody should ever ever ever do this and it does not work.. save yourself and do not repeat my mistakes... and my list of mistakes is so long it stretches over the horizon. Bad times bad times

 

[jamesBrown]

Was just frustrated my whole left side seemed to shut down but I changed to my right hand for a little while and yesterday and today I've been good to go.

Please be careful. Recently, a friend of mine who I have distanced myself from the past few years(because he is still an active drug abuser), had messed up his veins so bad that he had to start injecting ANYWHERE he could get a plume of blood when pulling back on the plunger. This situation apparently continued to decline to the point where he couldn't inject ANYWHERE(including his arms, legs, neck, penis, upper chest, lower abdomen, and feet). The only place he could find a vein was in certain parts of his hands(mostly in his fingers). Luckily for him he was a natural phlebotomist so hitting a TINY vein in his hand wasn't as difficult for him as it is for most people. But all "good" things must end...so...eventually, one day recently, he was shooting up in his hand per usual, and...I don't know if he missed or not, but long story short...after he was done, he couldn't move/use his left arm/hand(the side he was injecting into).
I don't know about you, but just the thought of that scares the shit out of me.

Wrong guy - I have this stupid and unsafe habit of reshooting twice straight after I have my actual gear, just refill with water as I talk myself into there being a tiny micro amount of something left in the fit �� so its not just water but mainly - water and blood I guess. I KNOW it's ridiculous and not safe and probably using blunts has not helped matters at all.

DO NOT EVER DO THIS. It does not benefit you in any way. The plunger inside the syringe is more than capable of pushing ALL of the "liquid drug" into your body. And if you share ANY part of your IV setup with other people(syringe, needle, cooker, cottons, counter top, etc.) then doing this^ puts you at an even higher risk of contracting a disease that will be with you until you die(and may be your actual cause of death).
I sympathize with your situation, but it's just not worth it.

I know all to well about stupid unhealthy habbits, for me the worder WTF i was thinking worst decisions usally came when I got real sick...I would be rinseing a pile of old used cottons hoping for relief. Sounds ridiculous I know, but the things one will do because of that drug, it's horrible.

That doesn't sound ridiculous at all. In fact, I would guess that at least half(prob more) of all serious opioid addicts that inject filtering through cotton balls have done this many times. And the reason they do this many times is because it can work quite well(not that I condone this at all). I have literally gotten MANY decent rushes from "cotton shots", not to mention the dozens upon dozens of times a cotton shot has gotten me through until my next fix(rush or no rush).
Actually, at least where I live, EVERYONE I knew that was a heroin/opioid addict did this(that's at least 30 people). We often purposefully left a tiny bit of "juice" in each cotton we used knowing that we would put 3-5 cottons or so in a spoon and cook it up whenever we ran out of actual heroin.
And on top of that....people(including myself), OFTEN would do a SECOND(and sometimes even a third) rinse of the same cottons they had already re-cooked. This rarely did much, but I did find that if I used enough cottons, it could actually make the pain slightly better. And this was definitely not a placebo effect.

*I'm not sure if you have said where you live, but I happen to live in the one state in the US that does not allow needle exchange programs(which includes A LOT more than just exchanging needles- sterile cookers/tourniquets/filters/alcohol pads/condoms...and not to mention non-judgmental medical supervision in case of an overdose). My state CHOOSES to turn it's back on facts and allow people to suffer and die needlessly, despite the fact that MANY organizations, including the World Health Organization, consider these programs a "fundamental component of any comprehensive HIV-prevention program".
As a direct result of the lack of access to clean/new/sterile needles and IV equipment in my state....I, and everyone I knew who injected, had to use a standard insulin syringe(meant for 1 use) as many times as the syringe would allow before bending/breaking/clogging(usually somewhere between 10 and 50 injections per needle). And then when your syringe stopped working, many people would use someone else's already used needle to get high since pretty much EVERY pharmacy/HEB/etc. would refuse to sell syringes to drug addicts(people without a diabetic card)....which obviously helps the spread of HIV, hep c, and countless other infectious diseases or viruses. I am BEYOND lucky to have never contracted such a disease...although I NEVER shared needles/IV equipment*