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Bupe Can a taper be performed painlessly

First time I tried tapering off with methadone was like 5 years ago and it was only like my second try to stop using. And 5 years later despite all the time spent on other opioids giving rush (e.g. dextromoramide) and/or deep euphoria (e.g. levorphanol) still when I'm to taper off I'm on this f**king liquid.

I need split-dosing and it's terrible for me to get down from 15ml - 10ml to 10ml - 6ml. I feel like I'm in withdrawal right now taking 10mg in the morning and 6mg in the evening. I smoke weed so I don't feel all these bad symptoms. I find it very numbing and a bit dissociative, besides it makes me feel warm so it's good for those cold-hot flashes.
 
I order my weed straight from a guy I know in Amsters problem is it takes 3-4 weeks to come. I found weed incredibly useful, but I did end up picking up a mental addiction to the stuff. Now when I think about being high the psychological pull is stronger than that of opiates! I was considering picking up some weed but to be honest this is best done without any drugs. My body needs to heal and part of that process is giving up all pleasure center altering substances.
Still it reduced my symptoms massively and I would recommend it heartily to anyone with a long history of use for whom addiction isnt a potential pitfall,
Meth is tough to taper with too. I think being a partial agonist bupe lends itself to the taper. With the 1/3 reduction every 3 days or 1/4 every 4 days tolerance seems to decrease in line with the reductions since the receptors aren't 100% occupied. I use ULD naltrexone and high doses of Magnesium and Zinc (NMDA antagonists) so those are a contributory factor without a doubt.
Exercise is also ESSENTIAL. I keep mentioning this but exercise results in the release of endocanbinoids and some endorphins. You are forcing your brain to produce endorphins, Without this it will take 3-4 times longer to recover. Water also causes the release of endorphins. I drink 2 litres a day from my 1l thermos.

Anyways im glad youve got weed - have you tried vaporising it! Maximises my stash significantly in my experience. Have you considered swithcing to bupe also? It might turn things around for you as long as you dont stay on it for too long. Meth is more a maintenance drug while bupe is a tapering drug imo.
 
Totally painlessly? Most likely not. However, it isn't all that bad with a very slow taper down to a very low dose. I tapered slowly over the course of about 8-10 months. Got myself down to .25 a day, then I jumped off. I had Hydroxyzine and Clonidine (Not Klonopin) and some Ambien. It wasn't fun, but it wasn't nearly as bad as full agonist withdrawal. My use was very cyclical (off and on) and I always tapered off, so I have lots of experience to compare. I found a beer or two can help as well, but be careful with that stuff obviously.

I should also note that I did not relapse during the year and a half I was on bupe. That might have made a difference as well.

I haven't touched an opiate since getting off.
 
Gotta do the time if ya do the crime. The best I've been able to get away with was 4 tolerable weeks, of feeling shitty, chills, sneezes diarrhea every morning, sleepless nights and when I do sleep it just feels like I've had my eyes shut for a few hours, still laying in the same position. I mean it's bearable if you taper right, but boy the symptoms seem to hang around. I've since gotten rid of a 32mg/daily bupe habit and now just have a mild mild heroin habit. My most recent detox was 8 days, with 0.4mg of bupe on the first and second day which made things bearable. Best thing I ever did was get off maintenance.. So far..
 
Ashley said:
Gotta do the time if ya do the crime. The best I've been able to get away with was 4 tolerable weeks, of feeling shitty, chills, sneezes diarrhea every morning, sleepless nights and when I do sleep it just feels like I've had my eyes shut for a few hours, still laying in the same position. I mean it's bearable if you taper right, but boy the symptoms seem to hang around. I've since gotten rid of a 32mg/daily bupe habit and now just have a mild mild heroin habit. My most recent detox was 8 days, with 0.4mg of bupe on the first and second day which made things bearable. Best thing I ever did was get off maintenance.. So far..
Click to expand...

Appreciate the honesty m8 but... wasnt there anything positive in your experience? I agree wholeheartedly with the time n crime. 4 years of tweaking the pleasure centres takes its toll. However my experience and plenty of others has been really positive (at least mine has been so far).
In a way I would say that if you want to kick simply going cold turkey from a short acting opiate is potentially easier for the acute phase however for the post acute phase I think a bupe taper is far far easier on the opioid system - it gives the receptors time to downregulate since it only partially agonises them. This means that by the time the taper is over your opioid system is going to be in far better shape than it would be had you simply gone cold turkey from a short acting opiate - for this reason I prefer the short bupe taper.

@phactor: .25 is a pretty high dose to jump from - it sounds low but it equates to a moderate dose of morphine. This is why im heading right down to .07. Hopefully that will be virtually painless. I may even go down further if its worthwhile. Eventually the doses have no effect other than prolonging the acute withdrawals

I want to rave about the importance of water too. My last dose barely hit the spot at all and ive been feeling fairly out of it. Some mild anxiety and that soulless depression. 1l of water later and I feel much much better. Water releases endorphins in fact and the limit is about 15l a day - try drinking a litre every few hours keeping in mind that if your underweight the max amount of water is going to be less.
 
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Today I woke up feeling like death in a cowl. Could barely drag myself out f bed. Im on 1.2 now which I divide up into 4 .25 doses and one .20. This allows me to remain steady throughout the day rather than feeling ok for an hour or so followed by feeling awful for the remains of the day. Im not at my best - I feel quite rough, hard to explain. I suppose its a raw feeling, as if my nerves have migrated to the skin surface and im being sandblasted.

Overall im still very good though! The real struggle probably begins under 1mg - that said however splitting the doses has saved my hide on this. Had I followed doctors orders and taken a large dose i'd be stuck now. The best thing is im becoming acclimatised to lower doses. When I get down below 1 it'll simply be a matter of skipping one of th .25 segments rather than seeing my 1mg morning dose last less and less and hold me less and less. Only problem is it takes me a while to get going. Imma buy a new bike tomorrow which will get my ass out the house and onto the seat. I plan on cycling through the initial morning jitters.

I feel alright at the moment - the weekend has been hard admittedly. Family isn't even remotely supportive - my mum even says things like "5 years same story im not interested etc" I do mention that ive quit weed cigarettes and opiates in the same breath and im actually succeeding but meh.

Im trying to get a philosopical handle on my addiction too. Addicts are the epitomy of delusion. There are so many of us who rationalise our use by any means possible. Some use depression, others use work and commitments and the biggest one is comparing to coffee or cigs. Ultimately I havent found anyone ever who has been able to last on opiates. I used to think that if only I had a lifelong supply I could finally live the dopefiend dream. I would cease work play sex refuse all food and simply waste away in synthetic bliss. But were not wired up for that. Eventually opiates stop working and no matter how high the dose depression ennui and constant withdrawal syndrome sets in. Look at celebs and rock stars who have attained this dream - they still manage to hit rock bottom despite it all.

Opiates ive found are destructive not for any real health reasons but because they swap reality and the world of dreams and delusion. Human relationships and even the self gets neglected and opiates become the centre of the universe both out of necessity and choice.

What I found most disconcerting is the change it wrought mentally. Im now essentially pleasure focused and have an unntural aversion to any pleasureless experience - life is 2.9 parts pain and .1 part pleasure for most of us and attaining pleasure usually means enduring some amount of pain (this is how evolution worked out). We evolved to feel pleasure so that we'd be motivated to propogate the speices and ourselves. That in turn evolved alongside the human genome and the rise of societies and the mind.

When we interfere with the reward system we are tampering with a millenia old and profoundly complex system. For me this meant that the way I respond to reward and pleasure is fundamentally and perhaps permanently altered. Im all for cheap and instant thrills delivered intercranially. I have no concept of the simple pleasures and I am obsessed with pleasure to the point where hedonists would call me self indulgent.

Anyways writing helps the pain. I hope that somethign im saying here strikes a chord with someone somewhere in the same position
 
I have an appointment in several days to start suboxone. I was doing mostly Opana(nasal) but also using oxycodone, Dilaudid and black tar(oral, nasal and smoked). I couldn't get on the suboxone right away so I ended up stopping everything except oral oxycodone and started tapering with that. My previous recent attempts at tapering were unsuccessful but since I switched to exclusively oral oxycodone I've been doing very well. I've gone from about 400mg oxycodone per day down to 210mg and today feel ready to go to 195mg.

My oxycodone taper has been going so well and I've been reading so many bad stories about suboxone that I am very wary of going to subs now. Oral oxycodone has turned out to be much easier for me to control and stick to a taper with, than it was with the combo of opiates I was using before. Do you think it would be easier on me physically to keep tapering with the oxycodone or would subs be just as easy to taper with? One thing that worries me is the sub doctor never discussed with me what my goals were, whether it was to taper with the subs or just start using them for maintanance and I'm worried he will want me to just stay on them for awhile before I think about tapering and quitting opiates completely. Also since I have basicly commited to getting on subs I'm worried that if I drop out now and just try to continue tapering on oxycodone by myself the doctor won't take me back if the oxycodone taper doesn't work out.
 
Only go onto the subs if your doctor agrees to let you taper at a pace of your own choosing. You should draw up a taper plan and hand it over to him as well since this is in effect you putting your cards on the table. Ive never heard of an SAO that has worked out. Its just too easy to slip up since its your DOC.
One thing i'd say however is that you need to weigh up the pros and cons of a long taper versus a short intense WD. Depending on how long youve been an addict an oxycodone wd could be virtually painless. The problems come with the aftermath which imo is tougher than the acute phase. You can anaesthetise yourself through the acute phase but the Post acute phase is a healing process you have to work through.
I would recommending tapering the oxycodone down as low as possible inducing bupe and doing a quick taper. Try inducing under 4mg and if your doctor insists on a higher dose then just pretend to follow his recomendation. In the uk we have supervised dosing, I actually brought in tablets that resembled subutex and did a sleight of hand swap to avoid having to take my dose in one go. Important thing is that whatever your doctor says on this issue you need to take with a pinch of salt. Things like take your dose in one go, start at a high dose and taper down over a year etc all bs and that'll get you stuck. 1/3 reductions every 3 days or 1/4 every 4 is the way to go. Remember you can always go back to the oxycodone and continue your taper if it doesnt work out. But be wary of relapse
 
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Today has been phenomenally sucessful. Im going to start a diary thread at some point (sooner than later) for anyone who wants to follow in my footsteps too. Splitting the doses was inspired. Ive been feeling great all day. Bupe is a brilliant tool when used correctly! People forget how potent it is. Being 40x more potent than morphine, a dose as small as .25 is more than enough for me. Im not sure at what point things will get uncomfortable however. At the moment my regimine looks like this

.25
.25
.25
.25
.20

That equates to 1.2 mg. However .7 and under may prove difficult if my tolerance remains the same. At .7 i'll effectively be elminating every other dose. I could go with .125 doses but im not sure if that would really be particularly effective. Im not exercising at the moment since I still havent got that bike, but im out and about tomorrow so i'll start then. Ive managed to scare myself a little now haha but im hoping that my tolerance will fall with my taper. Im on uld naltrexone and im taking high doses of zinc and magnesium.
At what point did you guys start to experience real discomfort during your taper??
 
Don't jump the gun...Wait until your off subutex and give it 2-3 weeks and then see if its a great tool or if you aren't in withdrawal or/and PAWS.. Don't be premature in assuming you will get off scot free..Ive heard it too many times from people only for then to realize they still suffer horrible long drawn out symptoms, this including a long slow taper jumping from 0.1mg too.


Am also from the UK and been on Subutex for 5 years..Am currently on 1.2mgs..I also hear stories where people tapered slowly and jumped from 0.1 and still had rough withdrawals and PAWS for 6 months to a year...I have personally known 4 people who tapered off bup but still claimed to have tough withdrawals and major depression, many of these folks never had depression issues before yet still suffered horrible PAWS..Worryingly I've not known anybody outside the net who was on subutex for 6 months and over to ever taper off and stay clean, hell there are hardly many success stories on-line either..

I may choose the Ibogaine/Iboga route but still deciding...I also heard low dose Naltrexone does not work for long either, infact makes you more foggy and more depressed. Shouldn't LDN suppose be used 3 or 4 weeks after quitting bup? what is the wisdom in using ULDN during sub or sub taper? from what I have read and seen low dose naltrexone only does anything for 4 days and then stops working, and when you come off the ULDN your worse for it ..

One person who goes to Turning point (prescribing clinic) to get his sub tried to commit suicide because he could not handle the extreme depression from bup withdrawals, he was off bup for 7 months and did a taper to 0.1mg and every other day too, yet still suffered hardcore extreme PAWS/depression/insomnia. I do not believe these are rear cases, infact more then common judging by people's experiences..Many people have been healthy, never had depression issues prior to sub and are young people too yet still suffer so badly...

I am not sure tapering makes a big difference, do not forget the half-life, that is which makes us feel the same at any dose, many people claim tapering did not make a difference for them, since the half-life is so stacked up it takes a long time to get rid of it even with tapering, so come withdrawals its the same as jumping off 2mg or even CT, this is what many folks have said and from what I have seen at T2...I wish there were more success stories but the fact is there arent much, not in the UK anyway where nearly every week I see people in terrible states when coming off buprenorphine/subutex.

I wouldn't jump the gun just yet..I also tried to go on a short acting opiate (Dihydrocodeine) one time from 0.3mg bup but I never ever felt it, I had to take 5 tablets to even feel something yet it did nothing to keep the sub withdrawals off, some say you need to take a SAO for 2 months for it to do anything or keep taking SAO for 6 months to a year to even eliminate some of the PAWS, but when I came off DFFs I clearly felt the withdrawals of sub and DFFS, mix them together your in for a terrible time, so no I do not believe in this moment in time that SAO does anything to help bup unless you take loads of them for half a a year...

I know some folks can be in-denial too and do not want to believe any withdrawals from bup or PAWS but we have to be realistic, if your on sub for 6 months and over there will be some withdrawals albeit a long slow taper or not...Ive seen many healthy people struggle with bup withdrawals and almost every single bup user gets some PAWS for a long time after coming off bup..

When am tapering I hardly feel any different then I was on 5mg or 8mg, this shows the half life is masking any reduction symptoms..This worries me because it tells me if you do not feel any symptoms while weaning down it means you got a lot of bup inside you...

I hope to read success stories in the future but there are just difficult to find.. I may do Ibogaine afterall and take the short way out, I know its not a cure but hell if it cuts down withdrawals and PAWS time then am all for it.
 
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Daaamn what a doom laden post. What exactly am I supposed to take away from this - give up all hope youre on the voyage of the damned? . The cases you describe are the worst possible cases. If the situation were really this serious doctors would never have the gall to prescribe it so optimistically. Tales of suicide and 6 month wd?! I appreciate you taking the time out to give a response, but this kind of thing just screws with people's psyche.
Were I a different sort of person the next time I felt a little rough i'd remember this post and freak out magnifying my symptoms. As it is ive read many many many success stories where people have performed similar tapers to mine and had a tough but very manaegable time attending to work and family all the while.
The horror stories come from people who did not do the following i'll wager:

Excercise
Taper consistently
Eat and drink properly
Rest
Practise positive thinking
Avoid pessimists

A simple 1 hour bike ride is enough to wipe out wd symptoms for a while. Exercise alone in fact can work miracles. I want to encourage you too and implore you to put all those anecdotes out of your mind. Just remember that you're hearing the absolute worst case scenario and its highly unlikely that you'll go through the same thing as long as you look after yourself.


http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4590
http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4688

The above might help you. That forum in fact is peerless when it comes to bupe hr - you'll get both sides of the coin there. That said most of the experiences are overwhelmingly positive. Why? Its all about mindset. When your surrounded by people who have endured and are leading normal lives it spurs you on - BL however seems to have a very negative spin. Ive not idea why this is the case but pessimism can become epidemic if left unchecked.
 
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The uld naltrexone serves to reduce tolerance. Were talking 12 MICROgrams here, so very little. Theres plenty of evidence that it does exactly this so its invaluable for a taper. Also this idea of doses stacking isnt well thought through. Its become something of a myth that we all accept without question. Bupe doesnt linger in the system at all. It has a half life and when its through its through. It doesnt get stored in the body like thc at all!
The other thing is that you only need be on a SAO for a month or so to switch wd's. A year is far too long and telling an opiate addict to take their DOC for a year is just the worst advice you could possibly give.
I
 
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I've read that forum and even though folks mean well there do not forget there are many prescribing doctors there and not all stories are actually true success stories. This wasn't to freak anybody out but to even it out, to be realistic and not give folks false hope. Sometimes having high hopes can backfire as you can get frustrated and be in a sense of shock....Its good to be prepared to and know what to expect if you do get symptoms what many folks get..Sometimes its good to know what your going through is normal i.e bup detox and you arent driving yourself crazy or it isnt you but the bup itself.. Dont get me wrong am in the same boat as you are and I truly do wish there was a simple way of riding the bup detox without extreme withdrawals and PAWS but I have to be realistic and take everybody'#s stories on aboard.. Put it this way I see more people in real life who struggle then folks on-line and that what leads me have skepticism about folks on-line whether they are telling the truth or not.. Some people there have been caught out because they came on the forums claiming they made it clean by doing a slow taper but then you realize they are on other forums complaining of harsh withdrawals/PAWS or they are still on bup, so I dont believe everything over the net..


The patients aren't to blame but doctors who have no clue about bup..Also bup in high doses such as 4mg is still relatively a new drug, and there havent been concrete studies done on the long-term affects of bup. So basically we are guinea pigs.

I dont think people who dont exercise and whatnot are worse case scenarios.. Many exercise yet stil struggle, many cannot exercise because your muscles are stiff while in withdrawal, imagine exercising and still not being able to sleep?.. There is a 23 year old guy who excercises yet still cannot sleep, cannot get over the depression or feel good, and he weaned down to 0.125 over 5 months and he was only on 3mgs for 8 months, hes coming up at the 3 month mark and he hasnt even gone back to work because he's so depressed...Post-sub depression is different to general depression..

Tapering may just cut down a bit of acute withdrawals but PAWS seem to still stand, its the half life which contributes to the PAWS. Riding out the acute withdrawals can be easier then PAWS, you can just take a clonidine or a valium for acute withdrawals but its the PAWS which seem to make people so depressed and relapse. There is no point in being in-denial by claiming worse case scenarios, the fact of the matter is its common, very common for all sorts of folks albeit young, old, short term bup stay or long term bup stay.. Many people are fit and healthy and exercise regularly yet bup is so strong it stays in the system for a long time.. Now I understand the only best thing people can do is taper good as possible but thats all they can do, and yes excercise but that doesnt mean people will not have PAWS or whatnot by default.. Its not good reading this but sometimes being unrealistic and having false hope can be more worse then anything, at least people know its not them but the bup, at least people do not have to be so shocked when they feel symptoms, at least people know what to expect and know what they can do.

Another issue is that bup does affect the liver, 6 people had liver enzyme tests and all were kind of messed up because of the bup, their doctor confirmed this too, some even had brain lesions too..

My plan at the moment is to taper low as possible and then do Ibogaine/Iboga...I rather take my chances with Ibogaine/Iboga then to face 3 months of mild withdrawals or PAWS...I think it makes sense because if Iboga can shorten withdrawals and PAWS from bup then why not hey? I got the money and the practitioner so am going to be all set up for that... I know you need a health test, EKC etc but if thats sorted then I will do the Iboga..5 years is too long to be on bup, heck even 6 months is too long, so the only hope for someone like me is to do Iboga, I cant be sitting home all day for 1 year or whatever until to feel 100% ok... I know one has to exercise and eat right which many people do including I but still its hard with PAWS, so I will definitely keep an open mind and see how it goes, but at the moment am leaning towards Iboga, get it over and done with and lead a good sober life...My issue has always been withdrawals and PAWS, so I think Iboga is for me..
 
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I never said take SAO for a year, I said what some people have claimed what may work, was speaking on general terms.. The SAO will take about 1 month to even do anything, take it from experience trust me. No SAO will get through bup withdrawals the first 3 weeks or so, I tried it at 0.3 of bup, even took 5 DFFS and it was a waste, in my experience SAO only prolongs the misery, because you need to face withdrawals from a SAO, so if you mix that with bup withdrawals/PAWS then its tough. All SAO is mask the symptoms, your brain needs less opiates as possible in order to get clean so taking SAO is still numbing your brain and natural endorphins, so by the time you get off your brain will be in shock in facing reality, thats how I felt it.. It can just postpone withdrawals thats all, but I do know for a fact SAO takes a hell of a long time to go through your receptors when you've been on bup for 6 months and over.. Someone used bup for 6 years and he suffered PAWS for 3 years, I think most folks know who he is and the forums he's on, actually he runs forum/board too, if you want the link then PM me. He said if one was to use a SAO they'll be better off using it for 3 months to 6 months to a year if they want them to taker affect if you been on bup for a year.

About the ULDN from seeing people's experiences it stops working after a week or so, you need to consume ULDN twice as much for it to do anything, but it tends to get people more in a fog especially if they are on bup or just quit bup.. Surely it would be popular by now if ULDN did anything for the long run or made a major difference..I do know some folks tried to use to after quitting bup or when your far away from bup as possible, but then people claim it stops working or you have to take it for 4 days then stop for 5 days then take it for 4 days again, but it stops working, this is on 2 forums where you can read about some people who used low dose Naltrexone after tapering off bup, and how they didnt think it did much in the long run.. I didnt know ULDN gets through the receptors when your on bup, you got to make sure if its making any difference, because I once taperd to .3g and had no symptoms at all, well not any major ones, and I wasnt even taking anything, this was because of the stacked half-life which was covering me, so you gotta make sure if ULDN indeed is making a difference but all I read and know is that it tends to get you in a fog, but I got like 300 tablets of naltrexone at home, but don#t plan to use them as I dont think they'll do anything. I also have 500 dihydrocodeine left over, which again I dont plan on using after what happened last time..I dont think DFFs are strong enough to cover bup withdrawals anyway...

But if I do Ibogaine/Iboga I may use them, I also have morphine caps too and other SAOs so am covered there if I ever wanted to take them for 3 months or so to rid some bup withdrawals but again I don't want to take the risk of going through what I did last time when I felt even worse withdrawals which lasted for ages...I can just about handle pshycal withdrawals but its the mental withdrawals which gets to ya, your receptors need time having less opiates or any meds including ULDN, so when people put meds in them for ages it tends to block natural endorphins, so when u do stop your receptors are in for a shock hence of depression and PAWS...
 
Read about 2 paragraphs of the above - saw references to liver disease and lesions. That was about all I needed. Buprenorphine is not the devil in disguise you make it out to be. It has helped millions of people. Over at suboxforum the climate is distinctly anti medical estblishment. Doctors tend to advise long prolonged tapers while that forum advocates shorter 1 month tapers. That alone discounts the idea that the forum is simpy medical propooganda.
I have to admit you got to me a little. Not to the point where I was considering relapse. Fuck that! However I felt my knees weaken a little. There's no evidence of bupe brain lesions except 1 unsupported claim on a forum (now 2) liver problems are also unsubstantiated. Bupe is a wonder drug when used correctly i.e. over the short term. 2 years will be a tough call yes, but there are plenty of stories over at suboxforum which suggest that a slow taper will serve you well.
The message youve managed to portray with your posts is going to work its way into some poor addicts brain where it will probably drive them deeper into madness. I advise you to actually delete most of it. Some is useful but much of it serves no purpose other than to lead people over the edge.
ULDN does not last for a week. Thats patently false. Read Mike Strates' account for example. To be honest most of this sounds as if it was contrived to scare the shit out of any addict to dare try and get clean using subs. But of course thats just absurd haha
Please continue to follow my progress. I guarantee that this is going to be sucessful. Youve made too many points to address directly but the majority are likely candidates for deletion - no offense but this is a HR forum. Everything you type has an effect. Be aware of this fact and respect the fact that claims ought to be substantiated
 
I've said it a billion times and i'll say it again: everyone builds up W/D in their mind and they end up psyching themselves out SO MUCH over them that they make it worse than it should be.

If your ducks are all in a row when youre tapering suboxone you will have a manageable time. not easy, but it never is and never will be. Everyone always bitches "OMG I FEEL SO HORRIBLE 4 WEEKS LATER" but doont stop to realize they never have MADE IT to 4 fucking weeks before because the went and relapsed on day 10. Shouldn't feel great, but it wont feel horrible either.

If you start trying to taper when you are clearly not ready to of course you will have a rough time. Everyone talks about "I wanted off that demon suboxone" and jumps off at w/e amount or does some rapid taper and quit taking their suboxone for ALL THE WRONG REASONS! Or if you start trying to lower your dose when youre not ready to quit using (and are still getting fucked up "just on weekends") then start tapering and go "FUCK SUBOXONE I RELAPSED AFTER BEING ON THAT SHIT" once again: no fucking duh.

Like paws wow, what a surprise! I feel depressed after years of opiate abuse! Of course you feel depressed relative to the way you felt for YEARS on opiates, you were flooding your brain with endorphins and chemicals. Not feeling like you used to is fucking normal.

Who cares about all the fucking reports and statistics? About the science and all that shit. Does it serve any purpose to dwell on the fact that you might have "brain lesions" (but of course never go to a doc and actually find out)? Addiction is not about statistics. If you wanna read numbers go look at the relapse rate, with or without treatment. Sometimes people do everything right and still relapse. Addiction isn't some logical beast, if youre a lucky mother fucker you escape it and if youre not you dont. No other way to split it.
 
Im noticing that this thread is strangely negative. For a thread which features an addicts struggle to get clean there are an awful lot of people predicting an apocalyptic year of reckoning amidst fire and brimstone. Will anyone offer any words of support!!!


http://whatmesober.com/personal-writing-about-addiction-and-recovery/early-recovery/paws/


I just read an article over at the fix which covered exercise and neuroplasticity. The story goes that exercise is essential to rewiring an addicts brain. What is paws but the rewiring process? The subjective sense of WD is directly related to the amount you exercise if the article is to be believed. The consensus is that this is the case. Only problem is most of us are inconsistent or lacklustre. You need to make exercise your DOC a surrogate source of pleasure. Im going to throw myself headlong into an exercise regime and if I die in the process i'll die in a pool of sweat with smoke curling up from white hot feet hah

Reading about paws I noticed that all the 6-7 month posts are united by a common lac of exercise. These are people dragging their knuckles through the post acute phase. This post says it all:


Rockblaster I too ride a motorcycle ( 48 yr old woman here ) and it helped me alot. I jumped april 15th at .25mg and my bike was the best thing to happen to my wd;'s to bad it rained alot back then.

its been 7 weeks since I jumped and I have been feeling pretty good but I force myself to always workout, take bike rides take walks etc...............

YOU PASSED YOUR TEST ON A ROAD KING WOWZA........I took my test on a 250 I have a 750 shadow aero now but I have been riding since I was 16

My memory was always bad ( years of smoking weed I think) so thats nothing new, I still feel a little weird on occasion I prob had two headaches since I stopped subs and I never get headaches. I am guessing for me the wd is over and I still am not sure what Paws is but I dont think I have it. We all have good days and bad days subs or no subs thats how I see it. But I will say I also have been on an anti depressant for years so maybee thats helping me not get depressed. I will also say I do ride my bike every day for the most part so maybee thats just what helps me thru it. RIDING IS THE BEST THERAPY MONEY CAN BUY In my opinion Smile Good Luck
 
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Another post that backs me up. Addicts who exercise intensely experience very mild paws if at all. Exercise kicks the balance of neurotransmitters back into equillibrium:

TJ said, "The reality is, if nobody knew PAWS existed, they would(n't) even notice it if they were going through it." This is mainly where I disagreed with TJ. I didn't know much at all about PAWS, but I got slammed with it.....and yes, I'm sure jumping from a high dose didn't help me at all.

I still think there's more to this PAWS phenomenon than any of us are aware of. Not concentrating on its symptoms and having a good attitude and doing a proper taper will almost surely help you out. I just still think there's a lot more to the picture that we're not aware of.

I clearly remember two people from the forum, mg113 and RainRainGoAway who tapered off of Suboxone and had NO PAWS whatsoever. mg113 had never heard of PAWS, while Rain was a nurse and she was painfully aware of what was in store for her.....but neither of them got PAWS??? You would think that with Rain's attitude towards PAWS, she would have got a bad case of it? So, attitude and expectations may be part of the puzzle, but like I said, I still think there's some pieces missing.

I know this, those two folks I just mentioned were in top physical condition before they jumped. One lifts weights everyday and other was running 10 miles per day. (Heck, I don't even like driving 10 miles, can you imagine running it?? lol)

I guess because of how hard PAWS hit me, I'm still trying to understand it. We certainly seem to have some pieces of the puzzle, but even like Dr. J. posted a few weeks ago, we don't understand it all yet.
 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110201083930.htm

Great article which implicated the serotonergic system in PAWS (called protacted abstinence syndrome here). Apparently rats on SSRI's showed significantly reduced PAWS. Some people have reported this to be the case in fact so it looks promising. I would however personally exercise caution as SSRI's can cause suicidal ideation and much worse....
 
I didnt read this thread all the way but from its title...

yes it can- but you have to go very slowly in tiny tiny increments
 
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