• 🇳🇿 🇲🇲 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇦🇺 🇦🇶 🇮🇳
    Australian & Asian
    Drug Discussion


    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Calculating the weights of drugs possessed - a WA anamoly or the Australian norm?

Jamie Oliver

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 13, 2004
Messages
160
Random Legal Aside

I recently stumbled across the Misuse of Drugs Act (WA) 1981... and I thought a read might be in order.

Not to suggest anyone in this forum would be 'misusers of drugs', but I thought this info was interesting

To be considered a drug trafficker you need to have 28 grams of pure MDMA, MDA, Speed or Coke. So... working on 80mg a pill (at best in Perth!) , that's about 350.

The amount at which a 'presumption of intent to sell or supply' arises is:
2 grams of MDMA, MDA, Speed or Coke. So at 80mg a pill, that's about 25

Having said that, even if you have one on you, as you know, you're liable for prosecution.


Drug Schedule WA - AustLii

NB. I posted this in here because this is WA legislation, the quantities will be different in other states.
 
The Misuse of Drugs Act weights do NOT relate to pure samples

To be considered a drug trafficker you need to have 28 grams of pure MDMA, MDA, Speed or Coke. So... working on 80mg a pill (at best in Perth!) , that's about 350.
Unfortunately this is a big mistake and a common misconception.

In Western Australia the Court of Criminal Appeal, back in 1988 in the case of Fursman v The Queen ruled that the amounts in the Misuse of Drugs Act does NOT equate to pure amounts of the drugs.

This excerpt is taken from the recent case of Kirby v The Queen [2003] WASCA 164:
It must be borne in mind that the question of intent aside, the offence is the possession of a preparation or admixture of the prohibited drug. The relevant weight therefore is the weight of the admixture, not the weight of the pure drug contained in it. This applies also to the presumptive quantity (Fursman v The Queen, unreported; CCA SCt of WA; Library No 7414; 5 December 1988 (per Brinsden J at 2 and 5).

There is therefore no substance to the contention of the applicant that the learned sentencing Judge failed to appreciate there was less than 1.15 grams of pure cocaine (less than the presumptive quantity) and that the amount of pure amphetamine was 311 grams. His Honour was required to sentence the applicant on the basis that the offences involved 4.8 grams of cocaine of 25 per cent purity and 3.168 kilograms of amphetamine ranging from 9.1 to 10.6 per cent purity. That is what his Honour did.

As already observed, whilst the weight of the drug and its purity and value are considerations of some importance (R v Hafner [2002] WASCA 211 per Steytler J at [23]; Dodd v The Queen [2002] WASCA 55 per Wheeler J at [5] and Miller J at [55]) they should not be determinative to the exclusion of other factors (Wong v The Queen, supra). It is critical to consider what the offender actually did, and with what knowledge or purpose (R v Olbrich (1999) 199 CLR 270 at [19]). The issue will always be to determine the criminality of the particular offender.

As Wheeler J pointed out in Dodd at [5]:

"... In assessing the criminality of the offender in many cases of crimes involving production or distribution of drugs the offender's intention, or understanding, or knowledge, of the amount likely to be produced or distributed, and of the enterprise in which the offender was involved, will generally be of greater importance than the actual amount involved: ..."

It is an utter travesty but that is how the Courts view it, and unless there is legislative change, that is how the police and the DPP will apply it.

Whatever the weight of the substance is you are caught with, that is the weight you are deemed to possess. Regardless of the purity, if you are caught with 30 grams of 10% pure methamphetamine you will be declared a drug trafficker, despite possessing only 3 grams of actual drug. (You will also lose all the property you have ever owned and you do not have the right to prove that is was acquired lawfully) If you are caught with 25 grams of 80% pure methamphetamine, you cannot be declared a drug trafficker.

As you can see the system is a disgrace. MDMA pills is even worse - if your pills are 300mg, 94 pills is all it will take to get you declared a drug trafficker. What this fails to appreciate is that MDMA's dose is far higher than methamphetamine. 94 pills is 94 doses. Whereas 25 grams of 80% pure methamphetamine is a good 500-1000 doses.

The system is incredibly unfair as it is plainly obvious to all of us what presents the bigger danger to the community. In reality a Court will sentence the methamphetamine possessor to a greater term as purity will be taken into account during sentencing. However thanks to the Criminal Property Confiscation Act the "kid" with the 94 MDMA pills loses all his possessions, the person with the rather large amount of "ice" keeps everything.

The case of Darwell (1997) 94 A Crim R 35 is another shocker, as that is the one responsible for calling for a firming up on sentences for drug offences involving amphetamines, and because MDMA is an amphetamine it must follow suit.
"In my opinion, having regard to the increasing prevalence of the use of MDMA or ecstasy, which is one of the drugs in the amphetamines group, and taking into account the increasing prevalence of the use of amphetamines generally, including methylamphetamine, the courts have tended to firm up the sentences for the sale or supply of such drugs or their possession with intent to sell or supply ...

It is important to note that methylamphetamine is now regarded as being at the high end of the scale of seriousness in the hierarchy of prohibited drugs. If not equated to heroin and cocaine, it is close enough to those drugs to be regarded as in the same category."

Subsequent judges have tended to use this case to, for the most part, group MDMA in the worst category too, because after all, it is an "amphetamine". This of course misses the point that the reason why the community demands drug dealers be sentenced harshly is in consideration of the harm their drugs do in the community. MDMA cannot be grouped in that sense alongside methamphetamine and heroin, because people are not committing terrible crimes in order to obtain it or whilst under the influence of it.
 
Last edited:
:\
I'm impressed. I didn't even think to look to the common law because the interpretation seemed so clear to me.

I'm surprised the courts have viewed the legislation like that, although I can see how, logistically, it's a lot easier to just weigh whatever it is cops find you with and book you off the scales.

Surely though, as a matter of common sense, for the reasons you suggested, the purity would need to be determined prior to deeming someone a 'drug trafficker' because they bought some pills in bulk.

The law is an ass.

Agree with your point about the grouping of MDMA as well, but can't see that changing any time soon; politicians just don't get it.
 
A very informative post. Thanks Biscuit
14.gif
 
Jamie Oliver: I forgot to make the point that I highly commend you in taking the time to look at the legislation.

There is no way you could have known about this anamoly unless you had come across it before. So yeah, my post was not about correcting you - you just gave me the lead in to make sure everyone understood.

The law in this sense is an ass - I think the rationale is that the amount of substance (irrespective of purity) represents the intent to deal that amount in the community. And that is what is considered the real evil.

All drugs are analysed and exact weights and purities determined. These are relevant in sentencing, but in terms of the weight you possess, and the weights that are considered for the supply presumption and trafficker declaration, it is still the total weight of substance found in your possession that counts.

Thats is why people who may purchase high purity methamphetamine, for their own use of course, must take note. Many of you would choose to cut your purchase, for the benefit of your nose, say 1:2, 1:3 etc. I recommend cutting as you go and not the whole lot when you first get it. This is because if you turn a single gram into 4, and then get caught, you are likely to be convicted for supply. You will have to prove you never intended to supply any of it, as you now have 4 grams rather than a meagre 1 gram, and 4 is double the 2 grams required for the presumption to apply. The more you have the harder that task becomes and serious lawyer fees will need to be spent, to save your arse from a conviction of far far more seriousness than simple possession.

Sorry this is slightly off the Perth Pills topic but as many WA BLs may only regularly check this thread, this is important information that you must appreciate.
 
Last edited:
We appreciate your information as always Biscuit, oh how wise is thee :)

If you think it deserves a separate thread just say the word.
 
great work buscuit and jamie :) that was some great information and explaining... keep up the good work!
go perth!

an interestin observation..

cannabis - 500g
cannabis resin - 40g
cannabis cigarettes - 400 cigarettes of ANY amount...

1 oz joints anyone :)
 
Last edited:
As I feel this is quite important and relevant information for everyone well deserving of it own thread I have split this from the Perth Pills thread. Also with the hope people from other states with knowledge of different conditions existing may also be able to comment on the situations from other areas.
 
The law in Tasmania from

http://www.thelaw.tas.gov.au/tocvie...0041104110000;histon=;prompt=;rec=;term=drugs

Trafficable quantities:
Amphetamine - 25g
Cocaine - 25g
Dexamphetamine - 25g
Diacetylmorphine (otherwise known as heroin) - 25g
Lysergide (otherwise known as lysergic acid or LSD) - 2mg
Methylamphetamine - 25g
MDxx - 25g

Does anyone see a link here. When parliament were debating the Misuse of Drugs Act 2001 (Tas) do you think they all sat around and thought of a random ball park figure eg:25g. It seems that if you have 25g of anything in tassie you get busted for trafficking. Pity they picked up on LSD and its slightly 'stronger properties'.

stay safe,
Fcuking in heaven
 
this has interested me so much that I'm going to dig through Australian Legislations tonight when I get some time.....


great post Jamie Oliver and to Biscuit....


=D
 
fcuking_in_heaven: that would mean that say a sugar cube with a drop of lsd solution would be counted by the weight of the whole cube.. just one would put you way over.
 
Thats exactly what I was thinking TheYellowDart. What if someone was caught with a bermuda triangle [LSD Pill]? Would they get charged for ~300mg lsd? Or would they just consider it an "ecstacy" pill ...
 
According to the legislation the purity of the actual substance has no effect on the law at all. For example if you get caught with 100 panadols trying to flog them off as MDMA (Who the fuck would do such a thing i dont know) then you'd be busted for intent to traffic. Max 4 years. In a way the authorities have no care for the pure drugs themselves but rather they seem to be worried about a shitload of binder, MSM or glucose or whatever else these drugs are cut with.

Fuck in heaven
 
Looking at the legislation is the first step, but it may not necessarily give the whole picture as Jamie_oliver found out.

Unless the legislation states unequivocally what the thresholds in the schedules represent, thats is are they the total amount possessed or the pure amount possessed, you are unllikely to know what the situation is. Experience or knowledge of the relevant area, or access to legal resources, is necessary, as the answers may not be in the legislation.

I am only familiar with the WA position and to a lesser extent Commonwealth offences. Hopefully there are people in the other states who can shed light on their state's position. For Commonwealth drug offences (that is importations) the sentencing Courts invariably quote "pure" amounts of drugs. This suggests to me, that unlike WA, the Commonwealth works on the pure amount imported.


There is room for trace amounts of drugs to be excluded. Therefore the sugar cube example would likely come under a trace amount and not be counted - you would still go down for simple possession though. However there is a recent WA Supreme Court decision that seemed to overturn this concept, however from memory it came down to intent. Despite a very minor amount of drug, the intent was still there to possess it as the drug, and the person was found guilty of possession.

A more contentious issue is if someone piles 30 grams of glucose in an old meth bag for storage and returns a trace positive to methamphetamine. I am not sure what would happen then, but I would be suprised if the lawyer could not convince the jury of what obviously occurred, and therefore he or she is not guilty of possessing methamphetamine with intent to sell or supply the same. I would hope it would not get that far though and the police/DPP would see reason and not further the charge once the results came back. Of course until that analysis is done, this individual would be charged with trafficking, as the police would have no reason to suspect this was not weak methamphetamine, with the intent to supply to others in the community.

In WA a person cannot be prosecuted for possessing drug X unless that drug is X. Therefore being prosectued with supplying ecstasy when you have panadol is a furphy. You may get charged at first, but once the tests are done, you cannot be charged with that particular offence. In my opinion you could charged for attempting to supply ecstasy or some similar offence. I actually think a fraud charge could be squeezed out of it, but I doubt that would be ethically acceptable! ;)

There is Court of Criminal Appeal authority that says a person must be indicted for the exact chemical they possess. It is not enough that they possess "a drug". An indictment charging possessing MDMA when the pills are actually methamphetamine is unacceptable. An accused is entitled to know what the drug is that is possessed and formulate a defence according to that fact. Of course for the average accused it means little what it actually is - you are fucked either way.
 
Top