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Caffeine withdrawals

Mycophile

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
4,302
I washed out after six years of biochem doctoral ed, and worked in biotech, so I pretend like I understand how all this stuff works. Of course I don't, and there's all kinds of weird pathways still being discovered. So don't let my tirades be a substitute for your own research or, for things that are mostly harmless, personal anecdote. Of course, if you do find new research, point it out to me.

Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors in your brain. Adenosine slowly builds up while you're awake, and gets cleared away while you sleep. Going cold turkey on caffeine would make your brain think it hadn't gotten enough sleep, making you cranky. Thinks like headaches might be from vasodilation--caffeine gets added to drugs like Excedrin because it helps constrict blood vessels. So I don't think there's any reason to think dopamine is that involved with caffeine withdrawal. Maybe with addiction to it, but addiction has nothing to do with the sorts of dopamine depletion that meth users worry about, just dopamine signalling.

And, there's no reason to believe eating dopamine precursors increases dopamine signalling. If it did, eating a steak would give you a rush like meth. L-Dopa, a medication for Parkinson's disease, can increase dopamine reserves, but it's prescription-only* for that reason. And that's in people who have a dopamine disease. 5-HTP, the serotonin precursor beloved by MDMA users, has been shown to do nothing for your serotonin signalling, and may make depression worse by forcing a downshift in dopamine production.

So I'm positive phenylalanine (and tyrosine) supplements have no benefit for meth users, and pretty sure it wouldn't help caffeine withdrawal. But, supplements are cheap and generally safe, there's no reason not to try it out.

*You can find L-Dopa supplements, but if you notice, it's extract from some plant that is high in natural L-Dopa. If it was rich in L-Dopa enough to have effects, it wouldn't be sold OTC because the side effects would start class-action suits. Plus it wouldn't make your meth high any better anyway.

This is the link that made me think Phenylalanine can help with caffeine withdrawal.

If you could please read it and let me know if there's any logic to what this guy is saying and if not, why he'd even say this at all if it's not true, I'd appreciate it:


https://johnfawkes.com/how-to-cure-a-caffeine-addiction-in-four-days-without-withdrawal-symptoms/


As you can see, he says that caffeine causes deficiencies in Phenylalanine and L-Tyrosine and that therefore taking them can fix them and help you get over caffeine WD.

Is that true and if not, why not?

Also, can you think of any other type of supplement or drug that COULD help with caffeine withdrawal (not the headaches, I can take care of that with Aleve, but with the physical exhaustion and to a lesser extent, depression)??

I know it seems funny using a much stronger stimulant to come off a weaker one, but back when I DID have access to dexadrine (which I don't anymore) it helped me get of caffeine (then I stopped the Dex too).

I guess it makes sense a stimluant could help with stimulant WD.

I'd just like anything that could make it easier.

Thanks
 
As you can see, he says that caffeine causes deficiencies in Phenylalanine and L-Tyrosine and that therefore taking them can fix them and help you get over caffeine WD.

Is that true and if not, why not?

The passage of science-ish horror is:

You see, caffeine works by causing your brain to overproduce dopamine. Dopamine is made from L-Dopa, which is made from Tyrosine, which is made from Phenylalanine. Extended caffeine use uses up your stores of Tyrosine and Phenylalanine, so your brain reduces its dopamine production to conserve them. It then takes progressively more caffeine to force your brain to use its remaining amino acid stores to produce dopamine- meaning you consume more caffeine, let have less energy and feel terrible.​

Well, to start there's no citation or reference, and not even a mention of adenosine receptors, which are the things that caffeine antagonizes. The adenosine thing is not speculation, it's done and over. Just looking at the structure of caffeine and adenosine, you can see how they make more sense together than with dopamine.

It's also not internally consistent: he proposes caffeine causes higher production of dopamine (through some strange mechanism), which uses up the dopamine. So your brain makes less dopamine, so it can save the dopamine. The caffeine now forces the brain to make more dopamine. All around it doesn't make any sense.

There are well-studied systems that regulate the synthesis of dopamine in your brain, which is a whole separate process from dopamine signalling. None of them involve adenosine or caffeine.

Now, the complicated part of this is that dopamine is absolutely involved with reward, reinforcement and addiction. If you feel you're addicted to caffeine, moreso than just a withdrawal syndrome, you can for sure blame dopamine. But dopamine isn't used up by signalling these things. It's more like dopamine owns the telephone wires--you don't consume a telephone every time you make a call. All dopamine does is carry the message. So even if taking phenylalanine did make more dopamine, it wouldn't change the addiction signal.

And, what a lot of folks tend to gloss over, is that we know what happens when your dopamine really is depleted: you get Parkinson's disease. Excessive signalling, at least at the D2 receptor, is associated with psychosis. Getting your dopaminergic meds mixed up can cause neuroleptic malignant syndrome. These are robust systems that can handle a diverse diet, and they aren't going to blink at some supplemental amino acids.

Now, the actual complex part, is that dopamine has effects on the body, unrelated to its brain function. The clinically important one is increased kidney output, which is why meth users have to constantly piss. It also affects vasculature, constriction and dilation. These things overlap with caffeine, so I can't say that increased dopamine in your blood, maybe from eating phenylalanine, wouldn't have some value countering caffeine withdrawal, by promoting vasoconstriction maybe. But like you said, these aren't really the main complaints in caffeine withdrawal.


I guess it makes sense a stimluant could help with stimulant WD.

Yeah, it's a bit like stim withdrawal--you feel like you could deal, if only you had the energy to even get started. What you're waiting on is your adenosine receptors to downregulate back to baseline. I don't know much about that process, but I have the impression it takes weeks for that to happen. There's really no way to speed it up.

So the best bet is just temporary, careful use of other stimulants. And given you'd want a mood boost with it, all signs would point to switching to meth. Don't do that. I'd think something like methylphenidate/Ritalin or bupropion/Welbutrin. Or atomoxetine/Straterra, but I don't know if that comes with a positive mood. If it did, it'd be the kind that takes a month to take effect, so not helpful.

Note that Yerba Mate is just different caffeine, same with cocoa powder. I guess you could try ephedra. Ma huang is the tea version. I think ephedrine products are more risky for your heart than caffeine, but I'm not sure.

I don't know what else to tell you. Besides, good luck. Why don't you just taper off your caffeine?
 
The passage of science-ish horror is:
You see, caffeine works by causing your brain to overproduce dopamine. Dopamine is made from L-Dopa, which is made from Tyrosine, which is made from Phenylalanine. Extended caffeine use uses up your stores of Tyrosine and Phenylalanine, so your brain reduces its dopamine production to conserve them. It then takes progressively more caffeine to force your brain to use its remaining amino acid stores to produce dopamine- meaning you consume more caffeine, let have less energy and feel terrible.​

Well, to start there's no citation or reference, and not even a mention of adenosine receptors, which are the things that caffeine antagonizes. The adenosine thing is not speculation, it's done and over. Just looking at the structure of caffeine and adenosine, you can see how they make more sense together than with dopamine.

It's also not internally consistent: he proposes caffeine causes higher production of dopamine (through some strange mechanism), which uses up the dopamine. So your brain makes less dopamine, so it can save the dopamine. The caffeine now forces the brain to make more dopamine. All around it doesn't make any sense.

There are well-studied systems that regulate the synthesis of dopamine in your brain, which is a whole separate process from dopamine signalling. None of them involve adenosine or caffeine.

Now, the complicated part of this is that dopamine is absolutely involved with reward, reinforcement and addiction. If you feel you're addicted to caffeine, moreso than just a withdrawal syndrome, you can for sure blame dopamine. But dopamine isn't used up by signalling these things. It's more like dopamine owns the telephone wires--you don't consume a telephone every time you make a call. All dopamine does is carry the message. So even if taking phenylalanine did make more dopamine, it wouldn't change the addiction signal.

And, what a lot of folks tend to gloss over, is that we know what happens when your dopamine really is depleted: you get Parkinson's disease. Excessive signalling, at least at the D2 receptor, is associated with psychosis. Getting your dopaminergic meds mixed up can cause neuroleptic malignant syndrome. These are robust systems that can handle a diverse diet, and they aren't going to blink at some supplemental amino acids.

Now, the actual complex part, is that dopamine has effects on the body, unrelated to its brain function. The clinically important one is increased kidney output, which is why meth users have to constantly piss. It also affects vasculature, constriction and dilation. These things overlap with caffeine, so I can't say that increased dopamine in your blood, maybe from eating phenylalanine, wouldn't have some value countering caffeine withdrawal, by promoting vasoconstriction maybe. But like you said, these aren't really the main complaints in caffeine withdrawal.




Yeah, it's a bit like stim withdrawal--you feel like you could deal, if only you had the energy to even get started. What you're waiting on is your adenosine receptors to downregulate back to baseline. I don't know much about that process, but I have the impression it takes weeks for that to happen. There's really no way to speed it up.

So the best bet is just temporary, careful use of other stimulants. And given you'd want a mood boost with it, all signs would point to switching to meth. Don't do that. I'd think something like methylphenidate/Ritalin or bupropion/Welbutrin. Or atomoxetine/Straterra, but I don't know if that comes with a positive mood. If it did, it'd be the kind that takes a month to take effect, so not helpful.

Note that Yerba Mate is just different caffeine, same with cocoa powder. I guess you could try ephedra. Ma huang is the tea version. I think ephedrine products are more risky for your heart than caffeine, but I'm not sure.

I don't know what else to tell you. Besides, good luck. Why don't you just taper off your caffeine?

Thanks.

So what this guy is saying is just bullshit.

It's annoying when people go around spreading misinformation like this though I don't think he's doing it on purpose because he's not selling Phenylalanine supplements (to the best of my knowledge) so I don't think he has anything to gain there.

Yeah, I'm not going to smoke meth to quit caffeine haha.

I bought something called "wean caffeine" which are simply caffeine and L-Theanine mixed pills that you take less of in a regimented amountevery 3 days to eventually get down to nothing so you don't have to put in the extra leg work to figure out the right dose, which should work I think, plus a tea mixture of spearmint/cocoa (the cocoa contains barely any caffeine and mostly theobromine, but I guess it could contain miniscule amounts) and that's supposed to help as well.
 
Grapefruit juice almost certainly causes something in kratom to last longer. That's just because there are hundreds of compounds in organic matter, and grapefruit juice is such a potent inhibitor of liver enzymes.

Whole extracts inhibit the usual major players, 3A4, 1A2 and 2D6. WGJ inhibits 3A4. Mitragynine is metabolized by the liver to an active metabolite; which enzyme? Don't know yet, or it's behind a paywall. How it all plays out you'll just have to try and let us know.

And the curcumin in turmeric cures every disease known in test tubes, no word on what it does for opiates or kratom. Black pepper only increases the curcumin bioavailability, from zero to like 0.1%.



Well, you can look through my post history here and find some misinformation. Fortunately not many read that stuff, so it didn't spread. I think the guy could be sincere and got the wrong big picture reading about addiction.

It's the problem with trying to simplify and generalize, you say dopamine is the "pleasure" chemical, released by "drugs" and causes "addiction". Well yes and no to all but addiction, and only things like amphetamines make your brain release enough stores that you could consider a supplement. The dopamine release from a gambler walking into a casino is different from the dopamine deluge forced by drugs like meth. The gambler doesn't run out of anything but money.

And I like the idea of tapering caffeine with a standardized dose like that. Coffee could be pretty variable. I'd watch yourself with the theobromine and xanthines, since they all have the same MOA. There's a lot of theobromine in cocoa, and it's more potent than you think--it kills dogs and black bears. Only difference is inter-animal metabolism.

How does Chocolate (theobromine) kill dogs and black bears?

That's pretty crazy.

So you don't think a chocolate and spearmint drink that has barely any caffeine in it could help with quitting coffee?

I actually found what looks like a very professional article on the combo of cocoa/Sprear mint and how it is very good for clearing the "brain fog" that is created both by caffeine withdrawal, and also just tiredness in general, by some kind of specific mechanism, without causing addiction.

Seems to be a very healthy drink sold by [a mail-order company] who obviously have a good reputation, and I've also recently been enjoying a nice hot chocolate type drink made by "[pretentious name]".

It has it's own unique kind of mild stimulant buzz with barely any caffeine in it, and being dark chocolate is supposed to be good for you.

I don't know if I can find the article right now but maybe I can find it another time.
 
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Theobromine is a less potent metabolite of caffeine, and cocoa (the pure, powdered bean) can have a lot of it. You're probably fine, but just be careful with health food companies who like to call ephedrine Ma Huang, for PR purposes. Caffeine becomes "guarana" or "kola". But it's still caffeine. They could crank up the theobromine and call the stuff caffeine-free, when it's just caffeine-lite.

Otherwise it sounds great. That was my totally off-topic HR caveat emptor.

What's weird, is that humans can eat buckets of chocolate. But just an ounce of dark chocolate can kill a chihuahua. A lot of animals just barely metabolize the theobromine; it accumulates and kills them. They basically OD on caffeine.

Since raw cocoa powder will have the highest concentration, you can figure two heaping tablespoons is approaching the lethal amount for a labrador.

And, a bunch of black bears apparently died after eating (collectively) 90 pounds of chocolate left at a bait thing, per the wikipedia theobromine entry.

PS, mycophile, if you have a connection to the redacted mail-order health food company, send me a PM. I have just a simple question.


EDIT: I moved the caffeine-related posts to a new thread, separate from agmatine and kratom.

And, I just remembered, theobromine is a vasodilator. So, you could eat cocoa to get poofy veins instead of arginine.
 
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