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Social Justice Black Lives Matter Discussion Thread

burn out

Bluelighter
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Purported examples do not equate with a definition. Are you claiming that if you're not one of those people or don't look like that you can't be racist?

You obviously must know that though, so the nature of your reply tells me you're not interested in a good faith discussion. Have a nice day.
 

deficiT

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Your post I replied to lacked context, though. Point a gun at the cops and get lit the fuck up. That's just how it works out there. That's why dudes, who rob drug dealers homes usually bang on the door and yell "POLICE!", and even El Chapo's son, when they came for him, put down his sexy gold 1911. The police who took him wound up under attack by paramilitary elements of the cartel and they let him go to save lives, but the point of the story stands—he didn't shoot it out with them on his doorstep. Don't answer the door with a gun in your hands if it's the cops and you value your life.

That's why no-knock warrants are incredibly dangerous for both the subjects and for the officers serving them for this very reason. They should be drastically curtailed if not eliminated. Doing this would've saved Breonna Taylor's life. However, her case isn't a case of cops "gunning down unarmed citizens" nor is it a racial issue. In her case the cops really didn't do anything wrong and anger against them is misdirected. It's not even an ambiguous case with an arguable level of danger to the involved officers like most of the BLM cases are. It's in the unusual position of being both an absolutely clean shooting and an absolutely tragic and avoidable one.

Police being trained to "spray and pray" is another issue that might have saved her life, but in a tactical situation it's hard to be a marksman and most cops aren't that on the best of days. That's an entirely separate problem.
Whatever your analysis of the shooting may be, it still leaves us with an entirely preventable murder and a state apparatus that is immune from accountability.
 

birdup.snaildown

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@deficiT

I'm curious: roughly how many shootings like Breonna Taylor (do you think) occur per year?

Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?

You said there were many. Can you clarify what you mean by that?
 

birdup.snaildown

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So you're just going to blatantly avoid answering the question.

That's predictable.

I've already looked into it. The number is very, very low. That's why we keep hearing about Ms. Taylor. If it happened all the time, nobody would know her name. The number is somewhere in the vicinity of one.
 

deficiT

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So you're just going to blatantly avoid answering the question.

That's predictable.
How did I not answer the question?? I linked to two sources with numbers showing that many unarmed people of color are killed every year.

I'm really not trying to convince anyone of anything. Believe what you want. My only point is that BLM has a legitimate claim that the power of the state comes down hardest on people of color.

That's it. But you're not interested in meeting anyone halfway, so go off buddy.
 

birdup.snaildown

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I don't think you have an agenda. It is predictable simply because I know that the discussion is a dead end for you if you answer the question. The vast majority of time people are about to lose an argument, they deflect. You didn't answer it. I didn't say how many unarmed people of colour are killed by police in the US - but that number is also low - I said how many people are there like Breonna Taylor. People cite her as an example of what is happening, but her situation is totally atypical. It was a freak thing. If you look at the top 10 cases in any given year of police killing unarmed black people, they are almost always fucked up situations. Typically they punch the cop or try to grab their gun or they're fucked on drugs in the middle of the street being super aggressive. The way some people tell this story, it's like these moustache twirling redneck cops are just cruising around looking for black folk to kill. The US is a big country. Third biggest in the world. Plus everybody has a gun. There are bound to be some shootings. The question (with Breonna Taylor and George Floyd) is: are they disproportionate to the unarmed white people who are gunned down by police? The answer to this question is not 100% clear in either direction. There are a lot of factors to consider. It's complex.

The police encounter black people more, for whatever reason. You might say it's because of racism. Maybe that's true, but that doesn't change the fact that more encounters means more shooting. Once you factor the encounters in, white people are slightly more likely to be shot by police... but I don't believe that necessarily either.

After looking at the data and hearing both sides of the argument, what is clear to me is this: there isn't blatant systemic racism occurring here. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but there needs to be proof if we're going to assume so. Otherwise, we should run on the assumption that maybe significant systemic racism doesn't exist.

This all reminds me of a particular president who refused to look at numbers.
 
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deficiT

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I don't think you have an agenda. It is predictable simply because I know that the discussion is a dead end for you if you answer the question. The vast majority of time people are about to lose an argument, they deflect. You didn't answer it. I didn't say how many unarmed people of colour are killed by police in the US - but that number is also low - I said how many people are there like Breonna Taylor. People cite her as an example of what is happening, but her situation is totally atypical. It was a freak thing. If you look at the top 10 cases in any given year of police killing unarmed black people, they are almost always fucked up situations. Typically they punch the cop or try to grab their gun or they're fucked on drugs in the middle of the street being super aggressive. The way some people tell this story, it's like these moustache twirling redneck cops are just cruising around looking for black folk to kill. The US is a big country. Third biggest in the world. Plus everybody has a gun. There are bound to be some shootings. The question (with Breonna Taylor and George Floyd) is: are they disproportionate to the unarmed white people who are gunned down by police? The answer to this question is not 100% clear in either direction. There are a lot of factors to consider. It's complex.

The police encounter black people more, for whatever reason. You might say it's because of racism. Maybe that's true, but that doesn't change the fact that more encounters means more shooting. Once you factor the encounters in, white people are slightly more likely to be shot by police... but I don't believe that necessarily either.

After looking at the data and hearing both sides of the argument, what is clear to me is this: there isn't blatant systemic racism occurring here. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but there needs to be proof if we're going to assume so. Otherwise, we should run on the assumption that maybe significant systemic racism doesn't exist.

This all reminds me of a particular president who refused to look at numbers.
Except the numbers clearly show that black people are killed at a disproportionately high rate, a simple google search tells you this by many sources. You're right it's complex, and again, this doesn't mean that police are out "hunting people down", but it still means that there is a problem with how the system operates and reform is necessary.
 

birdup.snaildown

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deficiT said:
Except the numbers clearly show that black people are killed at a disproportionately high rate, a simple google search tells you this

What I'm saying to you is: the numbers agree with me. I've done far more than a simple google search. I was shocked to think these sort of incidents were the norm in a country I admire, so I looked into it and I found it to be false. I've done my own math to verify it. Police aren't killing black people. They may be disproportionately arresting black people. I haven't bothered to crunch the numbers on everything. But the killing numbers are wrong. One of the problems, these days, is people don't want to talk numbers. They just say here's a link. There are massive mathematical misconceptions in society. It is extremely easy to use statistics to your advantage if you want to manipulate something... and statistics are often (always?) generated by biased sources. So, there's a lot of manipulation going on.

People have faith in media to interpret data, even though we acknowledge they're all fucking liars. These last media generations, still suckling on the MSM, we are like men with no faith at church.

The judicial system might be biased too. There is much more compelling data to make that argument than there is the killing one. Maybe my numbers are wrong. Maybe the whole system is racist. I'm willing to have a conversation about it and change my mind. If I come to a dead end, I will not deflect.
 
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burn out

Bluelighter
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Except the numbers clearly show that black people are killed at a disproportionately high rate, a simple google search tells you this by many sources. You're right it's complex, and again, this doesn't mean that police are out "hunting people down", but it still means that there is a problem with how the system operates and reform is necessary.

A simple google search came up with this:


There is widespread concern about racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings and that these disparities reflect discrimination by White officers. Existing databases of fatal shootings lack information about officers, and past analytic approaches have made it difficult to assess the contributions of factors like crime. We create a comprehensive database of officers involved in fatal shootings during 2015 and predict victim race from civilian, officer, and county characteristics. We find no evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparities across shootings, and White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers. Instead, race-specific crime strongly predicts civilian race. This suggests that increasing diversity among officers by itself is unlikely to reduce racial disparity in police shootings.



I could post other sources from a simple google search that do not support the idea that blacks are killed at a disproportionately high rate as well, and if you read the above study you will also see some of the difficulties involved in studying this question. I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be.
 

dalpat077

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Good morning everyone. Seems a good weekend was had by all. Unfortunately my week has not started well and this after first hearing a portion of Oprah's interview with this Markle character and then watching it for myself on YouTube. And the build up to this of course monitoring this thread over the weekend.

So I'm going to take care of a PM or two and calm the fuck down.

But you know what? As I already noted earlier on this thread (or it could have been another one): with the best of intentions I've tried to put things aside, question my ingrained beliefs and ideologies, and be more accepting and understanding, especially on racial issues, and thinking that, well, I've learned something and come a long way thanks to these forums and various discussions. Then found myself apologizing after being corrected after a post or something and supposedly brought to my senses by a rational member or two. But I can tell you: if this shit carries on it's not going to take much for me to swing right back to where I come from and then some. And while my opinions and whatever else may count for fuck all around here and are certainly not going to change the world: there's one thing I've become acutely aware of over the years. By the time I start feeling a certain way about certain things and start leaning one way or the other: there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, even millions, before me that started to feel the same way or lean a particular way on a particular issue. And while the media may be responsible: how many times do I accept that as a marker and put it all down to the media and their bias? I can tell you: that's going to get old real quick.

Be right back!
 

cduggles

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Purported examples do not equate with a definition. Are you claiming that if you're not one of those people or don't look like that you can't be racist?

You obviously must know that though, so the nature of your reply tells me you're not interested in a good faith discussion. Have a nice day.
I think the swastikas and Confederate flags are a good indication that these are racists.
 

burn out

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I think the swastikas and Confederate flags are a good indication that these are racists.

I think you missed the point. I asked him to define racist, not provide an example of one. It would be like if you asked me to define communist and I posted a picture of some guy with a hammer and sickle tattoo. That doesn't define communist because it doesn't provide any criteria for inclusion or exclusion.

Or if you were a grammar teacher and I asked you to define noun and you pulled out your phone and showed me a picture of a table. Table is a noun but it doesn't define noun.

Again, I have to assume you understand the difference between an example a definition.
 
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JessFR

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Black people are way more likely to be shot by black people than white people. The data does not reflect white supremacists as a significant threat to people (black or otherwise) in the US. If I'm wrong, show me the numbers.

So?
You're probably not wrong. And mass shootings make up a statistically small number of deaths. Doesn't make what I said not true though.
 

Xorkoth

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What is conceivable?
That they will undermine democracy?

Yes, exactly. That at some point in the future, this movement that is happening to delegitimize the election process, and the conspiracy theories that are radicalizing people towards violence again the government, and especially if Trump gets another term or someone more intelligent but equally demogoguey does, that our democracy will be undermined. Whether that is because of a civil war, if tensions and hatred keep growing, or because of enough people getting violent and forcing the overturning of an election because they believe the narrative that the elections are being stolen from them. it is certainly conceivable, and to brush this under the rug as nothing serious is to turn our backs on what is a growing threat to the future of our free representative democracy.

Not long ago, people may have disagreed politically but they respected each other as fellow citizens, and they accepted the results of elections even when their candidate lost. Now that is not the case anymore, and it's changed quite quickly. You don't find this alarming, or at the very least, problematic?

It doesn't seem that way to me.

White racism is more silenced now than ever.

No, it isn't. It was silenced much more in the 90s/early 2000s. Lately it has made a big resurgence compared to the past couple of decades.
 

Zephyn

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Someone posted this a while back but it was a very interesting lecture on the topic of race and crime IMO. It's provides interesting context for the lead-up to the present moment (she gave the talk in 2013), with some interesting facts (one such example she brings up is how there's supposedly more people in imprisoned for just drug offences in 2013 than there were imprisoned for ALL crime in 1980!)
Not only that, the prison industrial complex legalized slavery for criminals in US constitution article 13, and there are more African American slaves today than there were before the Civil war.
 

birdup.snaildown

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Xorkoth said:
It was silenced much more in the 90s/early 2000s. Lately it has made a big resurgence compared to the past couple of decades.

Forgive me if I don't take your word for that.

Xorkoth said:
Not long ago, people may have disagreed politically but they respected each other as fellow citizens, and they accepted the results of elections even when their candidate lost. Now that is not the case anymore, and it's changed quite quickly. You don't find this alarming, or at the very least, problematic?

I don't find it alarming.
 
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birdup.snaildown

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Zephyn said:
Not only that, the prison industrial complex legalized slavery for criminals in US constitution article 13, and there are more African American slaves today than there were before the Civil war.

That's insanely offensive.
 
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