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Social Justice Black Lives Matter Discussion Thread

cduggles

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I’m referencing the fact that we are hardwired to begin noticing racial differences at a very young age, and this is born out by a number of studies, as is a racial preference. These studies have been done across different cultures and hold consistent.
This is evidence to me that we are hardwired from a very young age to be able to discriminate between races at a very young age. The reason for this is likely related to survival, like caretaker recognition, but the point is that the argument that one doesn’t notice race is untrue on a fundamental level that you aren’t even aware of.
Here’s a study that uses fMRI to show that “a network of interacting brain regions is important in the unintentional, implicit expression of racial attitudes and its control.” It also references the implicit association test, which is a well established way to measure implicit cognition.
I’m not citing controversial data here. It’s been reproduced across cultures and the data from different study methodologies track together to produce a coherent model. There are ways in which areas like the prefrontal cortex can “dispute” implicit racial bias, but the fact is that the bias exists.
So while you might not integrate the data on a conscious level, your brain detects racial differences at an early age and demonstrates preferences. These preferences remain in adulthood.
I doubt you’ll read the studies, but it’s interesting stuff imo, and it basically destroys the idea that racial detection and bias don’t begin early and don’t persist, likely throughout life.
This body of data is why I don’t believe the argument that people are colorblind or that race doesn’t matter to them, and I think it’s more than a little compelling.
 

birdup.snaildown

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Okay, like I said obviously people can detect race. I still think you are taking colour blindness too literally. I've said everybody is probably racist. I can't imagine someone is exactly zero percent racist, but that doesn't mean race "matters" to everyone either. Certainly not equally. I think you're taking something small and expanding it in more directions than it warrants. I'm not going to read the study in full, not because it doesn't interest me (it does) I just don't have the time... having said that I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be blown away if I read it. I have a history of being disappointed by links.

Whether or not people are capable of differentiating race from an early age and what that means are two different things.

I honestly don't see how any of this is relevant. It's interesting, as you say, but what does it have to do with BLM?

edit/

I had a look through the study. I imagine if there was a study that compared infant perception of men vs women (rather than black vs white) there wouldn't be neutral data either... but that just means - what - that men are not women and white is not black? Locating parts of the brain that are active when certain topics are discussed isn't exactly a sophisticated science. They don't really know how the brain works.
 
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cduggles

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They don't really know how the brain works.
It’s not phrenology! 😂
I’m glad you took a look (although the first one was more interesting to me).
And interestingly, an infant with a male as a primary caregiver prefers male faces to females. I did not know that.
 

What 23

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White people in countries they live in, that are destinations for the peoples world, are on trajectory to becoming minorities. Yes, that amounts to an attack, even if not personal- An invasive plant doesn't really have the plants that it crowds out in mind, when it just likes the fertile ground. Unabashed, yes, I'd rather white people continue to reign dominant, there, and everywhere, and I don't think they need to be "accountable" to these others, if not themselves...
 
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What 23

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The fact is people will notice differences, and they try to pattern match, and this itself is with issue. There is enough of a difference between white and black or Subsaharan African and Northwestern European the seed population sources for most places being emigrated into, where people with 99% accuracy will be able to tell the "difference". Maybe it wouldn't matter if over 100,000 years Libya mixed with Egypt mixed with Sudan... etc. Egypt with Israel with Turkey with Greece... with Iran... but this is over a short span of very few years, and none of this is "natural". You don't want to call it race. Fine. I don't care if I'm White - I'm going to be found in a population meaningfully different in many ways, from others. To expect us all to just orient perfectly - together, is a grand expectation and unfair to all of those this is expected of. We can't just wash over the differences, just because "we have to get somewhere!", and Lincoln was right:

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
 
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What 23

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Part 3: I don't think any of this justifies "being mean" to others. I don't blame outsiders, such as Blacks, or Mexicans, or Whatever - those regular people just looking to make a better life. I blame bad management in world systems and government, and lacks of leadership that allow the children to run amok... in various ways. I blame greed... I blame Godlessness.

Still I understand that these, despite this not being the best of circumstances, are my neighbors- Even if it's not the most ideal of circumstances that they are, or that they have to live around White people. I mean there are so many complaints (living with White people)...

But I recognize that they are my neighbors, where I am.

And I do, generally treat them as such. But I believe there is a certain shelling up that occurs, in different ways. I don't think this is exactly healthy, again- Still again I don't advocate hateful action - but what is racial equality? Really?

Just how must we "try" to bring it about? I use blonds as an example, as an extreme white, that I might prefer, but generally, especially with women, I find "white" or caucasian women to be the most beautiful, most worth fighting and dying for. Do I change or alter -somehow my perception, my passion, my tendencies to like, do I deny them, to fake, and "branch" out to, if I was in such a position to, to accept or be with a Black girl, or other girl, just to try to work toward this Marxist Communist Utopia of radical and racial equality?

Do I - if I am in a position to - give the position to a young black person over a young white person who may be equal or better, in my limited class, or competitive position that I may offer, just to bring about some idea, forced as it were, of "racial equality"?

Do we need laws that prevent us from freely associating, socially, in some way? Diversity quotas? Do I need to hire more Black people, or bring them into my institutions, just because there "aren't enough" of them, relative to numbers of whites? Do the White and Asian kids have to have a handicap placed on their futures, for "racial equality"? And if so, well, this is the only way, anyway (populations will perform differently from a base-start, differences seen will be associated with these differences...), and this is why I find the whole thing bullshit.

I'm all about being nice. But at some point, it is not up to me. And I also don't find this "nice", to whites (whatever, people). And I don't really think that the perceived "needs" of these others ("the world", to get inside their lands, among their nations), means their bodies, minds, get stripped apart and repurposed... That they need to sacrifice, or should be expected to, for it. To just give up. To back down. To say, after all this time, fighting, that it never mattered who or what, won the fight. This nihilistic bullshit...

Is it "racial equality" if special privileges, or considerations, are to be given to some, but not others, based on race?...

I do feel it's a very complicated situation. I don't think either "side" has really given it its due credit.

I think there are reasons why both sides fight...
 
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JessFR

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I wanna point out that just because a baby shows a racial bias, doesn't mean an adult has the same degree of racial recognition.

There's a lot of abilities and behaviors babies exhibit that humans lose over time or stop doing because of learned behaviors.
 

deficiT

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"Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." -Malcolm X
 

cduggles

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I'd rather white people continue to reign dominant, there, and everywhere
White people aren’t dominant everywhere.

I’ve lived in places where white people are a maligned minority and it’s hilarious to see them experience racism from above. It’s very disorienting for them.
Lincoln was right
Lincoln said things that were expedient, and Lincoln was a politician. And he ended slavery, so in that sense he was definitely right.
I wanna point out that just because a baby shows a racial bias, doesn't mean an adult has the same degree of racial recognition.

There's a lot of abilities and behaviors babies exhibit that humans lose over time or stop doing because of learned behaviors.
Yes, there are overriding mechanisms, particularly in the prefrontal cortex, but the first instinct is to notice difference and have a preference for what is familiar.
I think it is important that overriding mechanisms can exist, but I also think it’s important to recognize that implicit racial bias exists as a visceral reaction. It makes being conscientious all the more important.
 

deficiT

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There are many problems with what you've said here.

Where are the rich black people back in Africa?

Privilege doesn't - cannot - include what the British had in their possession before interacting with a particular country. It should (if it exists at all) work like divorce. But then how do you work it out? We can't give them everything. If they were never enslaved in the first place, would they have more now?

Slavery is bad, obviously. I'm not a racist. But slavery being a bad thing doesn't make something else something that it isn't.

I do not believe African American communities are poor because they are still suffering from slavery. I don't think that is the driving force. Most Americans don't inherit a lot of money. White people aren't living on money that is being passed down generation after generation. Most of us aren't, anyway. The internal economies of African American communities has changed massively over the past century.



What is convenient?
You're too high to be on BL if you actually believe that African Americans aren't still overcoming the effects of slavery and Jim Crow, not to mention the very real and present effects of mass incarceration.

Sure, maybe not a huge amount of people are living off of an inheritance, but guaranteed it's proportionally more white folks.

You forget that education and material conditions are also a major driving force in determining ones future success.

What exactly makes you people so uncomfortable that people are seeking racial justice? You say you're not a racist, and I'm sure you don't treat people poorly due to the color of their skin. But you completely misunderstand that racism is predicated on socioeconomic and systemic conditions, not just how people treat each other on an individual basis.
 

birdup.snaildown

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deficiT said:
What exactly makes you people

You people?!?
How dare you!

BLM doesn't bother me because it represents people seeking racial justice. It bothers me because it is another tear in the fabric of sense and logic. It is another conversation that people insist on having dishonestly and projecting all sorts of nonsense onto.

deficiT said:
you completely misunderstand that racism is predicated on socioeconomic and systemic conditions

I don't misunderstand anything. It is probably going to be harder, on average, being black in the US. I get that. Some of it (I'd argue not that much) has to do with inheritance, but it is mostly a result of internal problems in African American communities (like single parenthood rates) that can't rightly be attributed to systemic racism from the white population because the situation is getting worse not better. Most problems in the world - basically all of them - are best solved by working internally. I believe there is opportunity to excel against the odds in the US. More so than in Africa. Blaming white people for black problems doesn't get rid of the black problems. It is victimhood and racist and a waste of time.

You're too high to be on BL if you actually believe that African Americans aren't still overcoming the effects of slavery and Jim Crow, not to mention the very real and present effects of mass incarceration.

Show me the happy and wealthy people they would be without slavery. Show me a comparison between average lifestyles and average wealth in Africa vs America. Mass incarceration is a problem, but I don't assume it helps to view it as a racial problem.

cduggles said:
I’ve lived in places where white people are a maligned minority and it’s hilarious to see them experience racism from above. It’s very disorienting for them.

I experienced this from an early age, growing up as a white kid in Asia.
 

birdup.snaildown

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@What 23

White people in countries they live in, that are destinations for the peoples world, are on trajectory to becoming minorities. Yes, that amounts to an attack, even if not personal- An invasive plant doesn't really have the plants that it crowds out in mind, when it just likes the fertile ground. Unabashed, yes, I'd rather white people continue to reign dominant, there, and everywhere, and I don't think they need to be "accountable" to these others, if not themselves...

I'd like to think the human race outgrows the idea of race literally and figuratively. I can't imagine being "white" is still a thing in half a million years, so what's the point? I've never been as opposed to changes in cultural identity as other people. If someone invades this country, I'm not going to die fighting them. I think part of this comes from living all over the world.

White is meaningless.

Lincoln was right

Lincoln was a racist cuck. He abolished slavery because he existed in that time and place.

I don't think any of this justifies "being mean" to others.

This is a hugely important thing that is constantly brushed over in conversations about so-called white supremacy. I see a lot more hatred coming from anti-racist BLM type rallies than anything I've ever seen from the other side.
 

deficiT

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You people meaning you and others in the thread that have some problem with BLM.

BLM isn't dishonest. It's a group of people defending themselves from the armed and violent wing of the State. It's not about blaming white people and that's what you don't understand.

Quit being disingenuous, you know that comparison doesn't work due to the difference in socioeconomic factors. Numerous books have been written about racism in America. I didn't write them, it's up to you to educate yourself.

"I experienced this..." ... and there we have it. It's racist and bad when people are mean to the white kid in Asia, but the very real and documented experience of African Americans is logically inconsistent. We've gotten to the bottom of it everyone can go home now.
 

deficiT

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@What 23



I'd like to think the human race outgrows the idea of race literally and figuratively. I can't imagine being "white" is still a thing in half a million years, so what's the point? I've never been as opposed to changes in cultural identity as other people. If someone invades this country, I'm not going to die fighting them. I think part of this comes from living all over the world.

White is meaningless.



Lincoln was a racist cuck. He abolished slavery because he existed in that time and place.



This is a hugely important thing that is constantly brushed over in conversations about so-called white supremacy. I see a lot more hatred coming from anti-racist BLM type rallies than anything I've ever seen from the other side.
Oh really when was the last rally you went to?
 

AutoTripper

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I can't imagine being "white" is still a thing in half a million years,
Gosh, you’re really giving us that long? Maybe I should get back to the bookies and try and cancel my other 2 bets. One was 12 months, the other was about 45 years, in some iteration of human form and being.

But, you never know. I try to look on the bright side, but we also have to be realistic right?
 

birdup.snaildown

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deficiT said:
BLM isn't dishonest.

It's not possible for BLM to be honest or dishonest.

deficiT said:
It's a group of people defending themselves from the armed and violent wing of the State. It's not about blaming white people and that's what you don't understand.

Do I have to bother posting stuff that directly contradicts this... because we both know it exists and I have better things to do?

deficiT said:
Quit being disingenuous, you know that comparison doesn't work due to the difference in socioeconomic factors. Numerous books have been written about racism in America. I didn't write them, it's up to you to educate yourself.

I'm well educated. That's not an argument. If you'd like to make an argument, I look forward to the opportunity to respond to it.

"I experienced this..." ... and there we have it. It's racist and bad when people are mean to the white kid in Asia, but the very real and documented experience of African Americans is logically inconsistent. We've gotten to the bottom of it everyone can go home now.

I don't understand what you're saying here. I never said racism doesn't exist. Being a white kid in Asia is different (I think it's easier) because I spoke a different language. It wasn't my country. I was a foreigner. You said "the very real and documented experience of African Americans is logically inconsistent". Are you paraphrasing me? When did I say that?

I honestly think you're a bit triggered. This is (like I said) what bothers me about BLM. People can't seem to have a sensible discussion. You seem to be reading things I'm not writing.
 

AutoTripper

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BLM doesn't bother me because it represents people seeking racial justice. It bothers me because it is another tear in the fabric of sense and logic. It is another conversation that people insist on having dishonestly and projecting all sorts of nonsense onto.
I’m actually with you on this mostly, though I haven’t given it much thought, and politics in general is not my topic of knowledge at all.

The BLM thing is just a political coup, stirred up by the few, to laugh at the so many squabbling, feuding over identity.

Every soccer player kneeling in pride, eyes watering, before every game. Convinced that they are performing a sacred act, in support of the higher cause. Unwitting as can be. I bet they have a right good chuckle at that as well, these crafty string pullers.

Lewis Hamilton takes it up a level further. BLM has become his RELIGION! I’m not even joking, though I doubt he has realised it.

I’m not racist, prejudiced. All lives matter, plain and simple. It’s opportunism, and clever too, instigating this mass wave of hysterical outrage and protest at this time.

It’s not about the cause, but the reason they instigate such fiascos. It’s all about control ultimately, any which cunning way.
 

birdup.snaildown

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deficiT said:
Oh really when was the last rally you went to?

I socialize with numerous people who are very high up in terms of organizing major rallies in different countries. The sort of people who pride themselves on getting arrested as a rite of passage. There are way more far-left people in my life than far-right people.

Keep in mind: you're on an internet forum and you don't know me.
 

deficiT

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It's not possible for BLM to be honest or dishonest.



Do I have to bother posting stuff that directly contradicts this... because we both know it exists and I have better things to do?



I'm well educated. That's not an argument. If you'd like to make an argument, I look forward to the opportunity to respond to it.



I don't understand what you're saying here. I never said racism doesn't exist. Being a white kid in Asia is different (I think it's easier) because I spoke a different language. It wasn't my country. I was a foreigner. You said "the very real and documented experience of African Americans is logically inconsistent". Are you paraphrasing me? When did I say that?

I honestly think you're a bit triggered. This is (like I said) what bothers me about BLM. People can't seem to have a sensible discussion. You seem to be reading things I'm not writing.
"BLM doesn't bother me because it represents people seeking racial justice. It bothers me because it is another tear in the fabric of sense and logic. It is another conversation that people insist on having dishonestly and projecting all sorts of nonsense onto." Your words first
"It's not possible for BLM to be honest or dishonest." Your words second.

Again you are just being disingenuous, I am not calling you racist or implying you haven't experienced something difficult in your situation.
 
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