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Social Justice Black Lives Matter Discussion Thread

birdup.snaildown

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✿dai₷y✿ said:
His reference to being a '"white supremacist" read as a sarcastic rhetorical question, not that he actually is one.

What 23 said:
I am a White Supremacist, for my certain natural preferences and orientations- That I like blond women and children better than I like black ones (natural tendency, what I want, not to say I hate the black ones), that I care first/most for those with my likeness, they give me no other choice, in their framework- In their framework I am either White Supremacist or White Betrayer, the scale between, and I choose SUPREMACIST.

It reads pretty fucking weird, honestly.
 
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deficiT

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I read his posts with an open mind. If you have succumbed to the temptation of writing him off as a racist no matter how much effort he puts in then that's on you.

That's the problem with being labelled as a racist yet not being one at all is theres nothing that can be done to repair that and he may as well not come back here, right?



A simple matter of an odd posting style different language shouldn't be that hard to handle.


His reference to being a '"white supremacist" read as a sarcastic rhetorical question, not that he actually is one.



White privilege might be real yet so is the sentiment that it's just a brush off and put down which shouldn't happen because of EQUALITY. Not everyone is American you know .


Can you address his questions without reaching for the "OMG OMG RACIST "WHITE SUPREMIST' panic button?


Probably not eh?



Anyway, glad.
I did read his post with an open mind. Did I reach for a panic button? I merely echoed what he himself said. The post is full of "waahh white genocide" bullshit. White people aren't under attack. People are being held accountable and they don't like it.

Am I supposed to answer for every contradiction that happens in the modern struggle against racism? Sure I'll grant that some people get called racist or cancelled for petty shit. But the original post is clearly written by someone that doesn't understand how racism works and isn't willing to learn.
 

deficiT

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People should stop separating people into white and black. BLM is an economic issue more than a pigment issue.



This statement seems alien to me because I do not think of people in terms of colour.



The problem with white and black privilege (rather than individual privilege) is: there are a lot of poor white people that are suffering. The term "white privilege" is unnecessary and inaccurate. You are not privileged because of the colour of your skin. White people don't have equal privilege (within themselves) and black people don't have equal privilege either. This is precisely why we should treat people according to their individual circumstances rather than the colour of their skin.

Black kids from good neighbourhoods shouldn't have advantages with college entrance exams. If you take race out of it, you can still help people according to class. This is a better approach.
Again, classic misunderstanding and bankrupt "color blind" philosophy. This is a common sentiment of middle class white folks over the past 40 years. Of course there's poor white people. But they are not poor "because" they're white.

I suggest you should read a book called The New Jim Crow, and come back and maybe you'll have a more rounded understanding of the lived black experience. It's easy to wish color blindness when you are in the majority group and don't have to live the experience.
 

deficiT

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Here is a collection of quotes from Michelle Alexander, who puts all of this better than I could.

“In the era of colorblindness, it is no longer socially permissible to use race, explicitly, as a justification for discrimination, exclusion, and social contempt. So we don’t. Rather than rely on race, we use our criminal justice system to label people of color “criminals” and then engage in all the practices we supposedly left behind. Today it is perfectly legal to discriminate against criminals in nearly all the ways that it was once legal to discriminate against African Americans. Once you’re labeled a felon, the old forms of discrimination—employment discrimination, housing discrimination, denial of the right to vote, denial of educational opportunity, denial of food stamps and other public benefits, and exclusion from jury service—are suddenly legal. As a criminal, you have scarcely more rights, and arguably less respect, than a black man living in Alabama at the height of Jim Crow. We have not ended racial caste in America; we have merely redesigned it.”

“When we think of racism we think of Governor Wallace of Alabama blocking the schoolhouse door; we think of water hoses, lynchings, racial epithets, and "whites only" signs. These images make it easy to forget that many wonderful, goodhearted white people who were generous to others, respectful of their neighbors, and even kind to their black maids, gardeners, or shoe shiners--and wished them well--nevertheless went to the polls and voted for racial segregation... Our understanding of racism is therefore shaped by the most extreme expressions of individual bigotry, not by the way in which it functions naturally, almost invisibly (and sometimes with genuinely benign intent), when it is embedded in the structure of a social system.”

“Arguably the most important parallel between mass incarceration and Jim Crow is that both have served to define the meaning and significance of race in America. Indeed, a primary function of any racial caste system is to define the meaning of race in its time. Slavery defined what it meant to be black (a slave), and Jim Crow defined what it meant to be black (a second-class citizen). Today mass incarceration defines the meaning of blackness in America: black people, especially black men, are criminals. That is what it means to be black.”

“African Americans are not significantly more likely to use or sell prohibited drugs than whites, but they are made criminals at drastically higher rates for precisely the same conduct.”

“Seeing race is not the problem. Refusing to care for the people we see is the problem. The fact that the meaning of race may evolve over time or lose much of its significance is hardly a reason to be struck blind. We should hope not for a colorblind society but instead for a world in which we can see each other fully, learn from each other, and do what we can to respond to each other with love. That was King’s dream—a society that is capable of seeing each of us, as we are, with love. That is a goal worth fighting for.”
 

birdup.snaildown

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There's no lived black experience or lived gay experience. There are lived black experiences and lived gay experiences. Read Thomas Sowell and tell me every black person thinks the same.

But they are not poor "because" they're white.

This makes no sense. No white people are poor because of their ancestry?

cduggles said:
Do you think everyone thinks like you?

No I suspect diversity of thought is extremely vast. That statement just struck me as odd. We're trying to discuss race. Obviously we perceive them quite differently so I know the odds are against me. Sometimes it becomes even more obvious all of a sudden that people are worlds apart.
 

deficiT

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There's no lived black experience or lived gay experience. There are lived black experiences and lived gay experiences. Read Thomas Sowell and tell me every black person thinks the same.



This makes no sense. No white people are poor because of their ancestry?



No I suspect diversity of thought is extremely vast. That statement just struck me as odd. We're trying to discuss race. Obviously we perceive them quite differently so I know the odds are against me. Sometimes it becomes even more obvious all of a sudden that people are worlds apart.
Meaning that poverty in black communities is due to the color of their skin. Which it is in America. Again, black communities only just recently have been granted full access to the "American Dream". While white families have had economic rights since colonial times.

Of course black people aren't a monolith. But white privilege is real and has been studied and deliberated on ad nauseum. You just don't wish to see it because it's inconvenient for your worldview.
 

cduggles

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No I suspect diversity of thought is extremely vast. That statement just struck me as odd. We're trying to discuss race. Obviously we perceive them quite differently so I know the odds are against me. Sometimes it becomes even more obvious all of a sudden that people are worlds apart.
I was seriously asking. I’ve seen posts where people write something like “well I don’t see color”, as if it implies that others don’t either. I don’t understand the import of the statement.

And honestly, I think we all see color because we are genetically hardwired to note similarities and differences in race at a very young age (i.e., measures in months).
 

birdup.snaildown

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deficiT said:
Meaning that poverty in black communities is due to the color of their skin. Which it is in America. Again, black communities only just recently have been granted full access to the "American Dream". While white families have had economic rights since colonial times.

Of course black people aren't a monolith. But white privilege is real and has been studied and deliberated on ad nauseum.

There are many problems with what you've said here.

Where are the rich black people back in Africa?

Privilege doesn't - cannot - include what the British had in their possession before interacting with a particular country. It should (if it exists at all) work like divorce. But then how do you work it out? We can't give them everything. If they were never enslaved in the first place, would they have more now?

Slavery is bad, obviously. I'm not a racist. But slavery being a bad thing doesn't make something else something that it isn't.

I do not believe African American communities are poor because they are still suffering from slavery. I don't think that is the driving force. Most Americans don't inherit a lot of money. White people aren't living on money that is being passed down generation after generation. Most of us aren't, anyway. The internal economies of African American communities has changed massively over the past century.

You just don't wish to see it because it's inconvenient for your worldview.

What is convenient?
 
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birdup.snaildown

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cduggles said:
honestly, I think we all see color because we are genetically hardwired to note similarities and differences in race at a very young age

I didn't mean to say I'm literally color-blind. Obviously I can see variations in skin pigment, but I don't perceive people collectively according to their race... or (at least) I try not to. I would never presume to say white people think like this or black people do that. The idea of classifying people in this way is alien to me.
 

cduggles

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I didn't mean to say I'm literally color-blind. Obviously I can see variations in skin pigment, but I don't perceive people collectively according to their race... or (at least) I try not to. I would never presume to say white people think like this or black people do that. The idea of classifying people in this way is alien to me.
Apologies for the lack of clarity- I didn’t mean you are stating that you are color blind.
Babies can read facial expressions of a larger number of races when younger. Then the ability becomes limited to fewer races in just a few months. And it’s not just a black/white thing.
 

birdup.snaildown

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cduggles said:

Not to say that it is incorrect but I am hesitant to take on new information without actually seeing the study. Did the infants have equal contact with people of all races? Would a black child raised by white parents result in the same preferential development? I don't know. The link to the study (on the article) is broken, but it doesn't matter if it is true or not. There are differences between men and women and there are differences across race. I'm curious to read the study but I'm usually left disappointed if I come in wanting to make a conclusion.
 

JessFR

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I didn't mean to say I'm literally color-blind. Obviously I can see variations in skin pigment, but I don't perceive people collectively according to their race... or (at least) I try not to. I would never presume to say white people think like this or black people do that. The idea of classifying people in this way is alien to me.

I feel quite similar, I've often not even noticed say an actors race until it's come up or something. I don't like to say it cause it sounds like what idiots would call virtue signaling and I try not to do anything that would cause idiots to talk to me.

But since you bring it up :D. Yeah, I wish more people would focus less one race.

I don't think it's wrong to have prejudices against different cultures though. I honestly don't think all cultures are equal. And that's problematic because while cultures arent always linked with race, sometimes there's a strong racial overlap.
 

cduggles

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When I posted about that study, I thought “what if he asks for a link?” because I was on the way out. So I grabbed the first reference I saw to the story.

I’m in a hurry rn, but I’ll find something better.

But the study is fairly well known. Not saying it’s perfectly designed, just that it’s very intriguing.
 

birdup.snaildown

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So three-month olds that are largely raised by (and spend most of their time around) people with "own-race faces"? It is interesting, either way, but (either way) I don't think it's evidence of racism... or perhaps even race. A three month old is unlikely to understand race. It might be as simple as what is familiar and what isn't at such an early and vulnerable age. I don't know that you can conclude that adult perceptions of race are beginning to develop here.

I'm more sceptical of studies than I am religions.

Even the simplest of things are incredibly difficult to prove to the nth degree. When the study is a sensitive topic (like race) I am even more sceptical. I frankly assume there is a bias until I determine there isn't one.

Some doctors proved that heterosexual men show signs of arousal when exposed to homosexual pornography. This study has been done a couple of times. It seems to indicate that all men are bisexual, but it is possible that what is being observed as arousal is something else.

It makes sense to me that babies feel safe with their kind. It also makes sense that men (beyond labels) are horny little animals who will just about fuck anything that moves. So you can conclude that everyone is a racist bisexual, or take it with a grain of salt. I opt for the former.

There's no question that racism exists, but the BLM movement is disproportionately loud about an issue that still deserves a voice but doesn't need to desperately shout in the streets.
 
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