- Jan 7, 2013
The only answer is Communism-LOL (lololololololololol). Ha
I'm not calling you right wing, I'm trying to highlight that essentially what you're doing is the same as the borderline racist shit they do. It's just in my view people are inclined to take the side they want to be in the right, and in keeping with their world view. It's human. But it means people tend to either always take the black guys side, or always the authority/white person size (which is weird in itself given zimmerman was neither a cop nor white, but it seems in being armed and his attacker unarmed and black, he's kinda defaulted to being the 'white' side so to speak).
I am human, I have a tendency towards bias too of course, but I try to evaluate the situation on a case by case basis, sometimes I side with the cops/authority/armed/notblack side, sometimes I don't. In this case I can't.
If we had no forensic evidence, if it were just zimmermans word, then I think you could argue his state of mind being relevant, Because you could argue that him being the aggressor is in keeping with his character and we would have reason to doubt his word alone.
So what, he decides to shoot the next one cause he had an argument with his wife? There's no evidence for that and it's faaar less likely than his version of events.
It doesn't matter, martin doesn't have had to have actually grabbed the gun to be at fault.
Even if zimmerman was a violent dirtbag, that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened the way he said it did... and given the evidence suggests it did, how can it be justified siding against him?
I wasn't there, I can't say with absolute certainty what happened. But I can't side with trayvon martin when the evidence shows he almost certainly was the aggressor.
In light of that, no I don't think zimmermans history is relevant. Because the strength of the character evidence is overwhelmed by the strength of the forensic evidence.
The only provocation that would matter would be violence. You aren't justified in using violence just because you think someones following you, or because you think they think you're a robber. The only provocation that would change anything would be if zimmerman took a swing at martin and missed, and martin fought back. That possibility can't be completely excluded. But it shouldn't just be presumed that zimmerman was guilty and we shouldn't tie ourselves in knots looking for some version of what might have happened that would make him guilty. The available forensic evidence suggests martin was the attacker.
I'm not god, I wasn't there, I can't say with certainty what happened. But given the forensic evidence backs zimmerman, it's crazy to assume he's in the wrong.
Trayvon Martin was 3 inches staller than Zimmerman, The forensics showed zimmerman had been physically assaulted. The photos show he has a bloody nose, injury to his face, and the back of his head. Just as he described,
Trayvon martins autopsy showed that other than the gunshot, his only injuries were to his hands.
If you're punched to the ground... and we have forensic evidence that that much happened. And your attacker continues to attack you, that's enough to justify lethal force. You can't be expected to predict your attackers intentions, if he might also be armed in some way, what he might do next. So long as you know he is attacking you and plans to continue the attack, that's enough.
And again, there's no reason to presume trayvon martin was innocent and zimmerman was guilty. Yet that's what you're doing, bending over backwards to find some way consistent with the evidence to make zimmerman guilty, why? Why wouldn't you just go with the actual concrete evidence we have, which is the forensic evidence, that was consistent with zimmermans account?
It's completely fucked up. You're just assuming zimmerman is guilty based on completely biased reasons and refusing anything less than absolute proof to contradict it. That's not how you conduct a reasoned analysis of what side you should take.
At the very least we know with pretty much complete certainty that zimmerman was on his back, that zimmerman had been assaulted to the face, that martins only injuries were the gunshot and to his hands. That all spells martin as the attacker and that's why I side with zimmerman.
I don't believe you wouldn't shoot a 14 year old girl. I don't believe almost anyone wouldn't shoot almost anybody if they really thought their life was in danger. In that kind of situation you aren't thinking about these kinds of moral questions.
I agree with what you say here. We want our worldview to stay intact. And yes, I do tend to be biased against any and all authority, I'll admit to that.
Which means I'll argue until I'm proven wrong. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if that is the case.
Is it really, considering his anger-issues and previous burst of rage and death threaths?
Foresenic evidence doesn't change his character, who he is, which has been documented before and after Martin -
Zimmerman IS a violent person. Seeing his criminal history, and the fact the has been accused of "thuggish behaviour" by a police office, which I forgot to incorporate into his impressive resume of beating and threatning women.
This doesn't make you question him as a reliable person? Someone who has assualted police and telling them to "Fuck off"?
It matters, because Zimmerman said Martin did take his gun, and the forensic evidence, which you by all right, cling to, showed no indication of Martin touching the gun.
This is and his history of violence makes me question Zimmerman, calling him unreliable.
And the fact that him and his wife tied to scheme money regarding some kind of tax-shit, something she copped to, doesn't really point in any other diretion.
Of course it could. And I hate to say it, but that holds up better than my speculations.
I disagree that character-evidence is irreleant, but my opinion is also irrelevant.
No, violence shouldn't be accepted unless your being under attack. Again, you're right - I'm grasping.
But neither of us know what transpired during those, what, 37 seconds from Zimmerman talking to the cops to the gun going off.
This I didn't know, him being taller. Thanks for laying out that fact.
I was just about to bomb you with the "I'm Jacks Smirking Revenge"-theory when I realized I'm far to emotional in this discussion.
Sorry about that.
(As a sidenote, "Jacks Smirking Revenge" actually works out quite good in real life - because nobody would believe you're crazy enough to beat yourself up to get some into serious shit.)
Allrighty. Unless Zimmerman was as crazy as "Jack", it's hard to continue arguing.
But the injuries to Martins hands where "...one small abrasion on his left ring finger below the knuckle."
And you don't get abrasive wounds breaking someones nose.
On the other hand, this might jus indicate that Martin did bash Zimmermans head, grinding his knuckle against the pavement, which is, far more likely.
Because it's heart-breaking. Because in him and his behaviour, I see people who have hurt people I care about.
Simple and stupid as that. I just did not want to believe this - but you've convinced me.
The more I think about it - well, no matter what Zimmermans intentions were, I can't find no theory that is consistent.
Thank you for being respectful while proving I was caught up in a pure speculations.
That being said, I still think Zimmerman seems like a dangerous person, and an asshole.
But being an asshole and a socipathic-maggot with the temper of Eric Cartman doesn't warrant someone going to jail.
But this? This is what it looks like when a grown man goes against a 14-year old;
And you're gonna say, he wasn't in danger - well, when is he ever be in danger facing that kid?
I'm have many traits deemed undesireble by societal norms when it comes violence and protecting myself or my family-
against a grown man I have no moral barriers whatsoever, but are you really implying I'm like that pig in the video?
But above all, and more urgent, is that the image you have of yourself? I mean, it's like an elephant trying to mate with a pudel.
If you're saying that I'm that kind of person, well, then I must've made a horrible impression on you.
Thank you for induldging me in my neurosis to venting my theories.
Wow, I am impressed. It's so rare anyone changes their mind, I'd like to think I try harder than most to give other opinions a chance to sway me, but being honest with myself it's not common I change my mind either.
I don't like that a 17 year old kid died either, unfortunately teenagers dying cause they did something stupid and short sighted sometimes happens.
It's very sad that sometimes young people do stupid things that put themselves at risk. I suspect a lot of us have done at least one thing stupid where if we'd been a bit unluckier we might have died. Fortunately usually most people get a chance to learn from these mistakes and grow.
Trayvon Martin won't have that chance and that's sad. But it doesn't make Zimmerman at fault.
I tend to agree that Zimmerman doesn't sound like a good guy. Although, I do wonder how much of what's happened since the shooting is in part caused by how much he's been vilified.
What's frustrating is people have a habit of always taking one side or the other, when in reality, people are complicated. Sometimes it really is the unarmed black man's fault and not the cops. Other times it's clear that the cop was in the wrong.
I try to judge it on a case by case basis. I've argued elsewhere on the forum with just as much passion against the police for brutally and needlessly gunning down unarmed suspects in situations that were entirely avoidable and their fault.
Given how often these kinds of things happen its understandable that people might be inclined to assume trayvon martin was in the right. But in this particular case, the actual facts don't seem to support it. And unlike most cases like this, Zimmerman wasn't a cop, Martin wasn't a suspect in his custody and under his care.
Anyway I won't continue, all I'll say is I enormously respect that you were willing to discuss this civilly.
It's been a good debate, and you did make some points that did give me pause.
EDIT: also fight club is such an awesome movie. I really should watch it again sometime it's been way too long.
pulverstaden said:About cops in America; what the fuck is going on!? I've seen them choke out 14-year olds, even punching them while having them in submission, beating on 13-year olds, cuffing 6-year olds, throwing young teens around like trashdolls, beating the shit out of women and men, shooting people sitting perfectly still in their cars... I astounded there hasn't been a violent uprising yet. It's so far from my reality, and it makes me furious, raging.
About cops in America; what the fuck is going on!? I've seen them choke out 14-year olds, even punching them while having them in submission, beating on 13-year olds, cuffing 6-year olds, throwing young teens around like trashdolls, beating the shit out of women and men, shooting people sitting perfectly still in their cars... I astounded there hasn't been a violent uprising yet.
About cops in America; what the fuck is going on!? I've seen them choke out 14-year olds, even punching them while having them in submission, beating on 13-year olds, cuffing 6-year olds, throwing young teens around like trashdolls, beating the shit out of women and men, shooting people sitting perfectly still in their cars... I astounded there hasn't been a violent uprising yet. It's so far from my reality, and it makes me furious, raging.
The murder of Timothy Brenton occurred on October 31, 2009, in the Central District of Seattle, Washington, United States. Timothy Quinn Brenton (February 9, 1970 – October 31, 2009), an officer with the Seattle Police Department (SPD), was seated in a parked patrol car with another officer discussing a traffic stop when a gunman stopped his vehicle alongside the patrol car, opened fire on both officers, and fled the scene. Brenton died at the scene and his partner sustained minor injuries. One week later, as a public memorial service for Brenton was being held at KeyArena, the gunman was apprehended and seriously wounded after being shot by police officers in Tukwila.
The shooting is believed to have been a targeted attack against police officers in general, not against either officer individually. The suspect arrested in connection with the murder, Christopher Monfort, was also charged in connection with the October 22, 2009, firebombing of Seattle police vehicles at a city maintenance facility. No clear motive was established, but he had left behind fliers discussing police brutality, and had expressed opinions against wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. He was accused by authorities of being a terrorist who waged a "one-man war" against the police.
I'm glad that things popped off in this country over the issue of police misconduct...anyone who views the excesses of the movement (burning, looting etc) and the danger of ochlarchy as being greater than the danger of condensed power in the form of a militarized state security service with practically unlimited control over the lives of everyday citizens...they need to get their head on straight and see the direction that this country and this world is headed in. The danger of a closed-ranks, militarized police service at the head of sophisticated system of surveillance and repression is a far greater threat to your rights and freedoms than a bunch of looters or people who want to police your pronouns or "defund the police"
JessFR said:You only need adjust the stats for population size and it's still abundantly clear that there's something very wrong with policing in America.
Xorkoth said:The very cultural problem you reference is partly due to racism, and it has been since way before civil rights.
wo1fg4ng said:I listen to them.
Trump pitted the governors against each other in bidding for PPE and other resources related to COVID. Richer states (and better connected ones) fared better, which some people were likely just fine with. The vaccine rollout was also a disaster and I’m shocked at how quickly the Biden administration has gotten a handle on it.This is off topic, but it is more mockery than hypocrisy. The deaths the progressives want to pin on Trump without holding governors accountable for their more direct control over citizens lives, this opened the door for the mockery of Biden. Not saying it's right.
This was just a bad idea, whoever had it.WHISTLEBLOWER: Coca-Cola Forces Employees to Complete Online Training Telling Them to "Try to be Less White" (PHOTOS + VIDEO)
To be less white is to:
- Be less oppressive
- Be less arrogant
- Be less certain
- Be less defensive
- Be less arrogant
- Be more humble
- Break with apathy
- Break with white solidarity
= = = = = = =
While some of those goals are universally desired (Listen, Be more humble less arrogant, etc), I am offended they label that as white behaviour, when in fact people of all races exhibit such behaviours, the good and bad ones.
I think Zimmerman menaced Martin with his gun to intimidate Martin, leading Martin to attack out of fear for his life.Did Martin out of the blue attack an innocent Zimmerman, him being shot is not Zimmmermans fault.
But I don't buy into that scenario, and unless I see a video showing this, I'm not gonna buy into it, no matter what you say or argue.
Trump pitted the governors against each other in bidding for PPE and other resources related to COVID.