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Social Justice Black Lives Matter Discussion Thread

pulverstaden

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There was not much coverage about this over here, or it was, but no stories between newspapers seemed to line up.

I got the impression that it went like this;

Martin is walking in a neighborhood where Zimmerman is part of the neighborhood watch.
Zimmerman is in his car (?) because it is raining when he sees a teenager in a hoodie walking about and looking around.
Zimmerman calls law enforcement who tells him to stay put in his car. Zimmerman does not, but gets out and starts following Martin.
Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend saying to her somebody was following him.
Then within approximately 1-2 minutes the following happens (from what I read);
Martin asks Zimmerman why he's following him, and Zimmerman asks what his doing there.
Then Martins earpiece falls out for some reason. Gunshots ensue.

Zimmerman claims Martin attacked him, as in a 17-year old, unarmed kid talking to his gf, attacked Zimmerman, a man who was what, 29-years old?

And one side claims Martin busted his nose before getting shot. The other claims no such attack occured.

I look at pictures, and Zimmerman looks like a way bigger dude that Martin, but Martin just flew off the handle because somebody asked him what he was doing there?
I find no logic in this. At all. What I can't piece together either is, why did Zimmerman not stay in his car?
 

Xorkoth

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yeah that whole thing was fishy, to put it mildly. If he didn't live in Florida, he'd be in jail. But in Florida, if you can convince a judge you were defending yourself, you can shoot people to death without any legal ramifications.
 

JessFR

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WHISTLEBLOWER: Coca-Cola Forces Employees to Complete Online Training Telling Them to "Try to be Less White" (PHOTOS + VIDEO)


To be less white is to:
  • Be less oppressive
  • Be less arrogant
  • Be less certain
  • Be less defensive
  • Be less arrogant
  • Be more humble
  • Listen
  • Believe
  • Break with apathy
  • Break with white solidarity


= = = = = = =

While some of those goals are universally desired (Listen, Be more humble less arrogant, etc), I am offended they label that as white behaviour, when in fact people of all races exhibit such behaviours, the good and bad ones.

If it's true, it's definitely racist

However, given that this website also has a link that's says "irrefutable proof, we're not done" about the election... The election that's over and with the new president already in office, you'll excuse me if I am highly skeptical that this claim is actually true.

Assuming it is though, yea, it's racism.
 
Last edited:

Deru

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I did a bit of reading on the Coca-Cola claim earlier. From what I could gather, it was a course provided by a third party on LinkedIn that 1,000s of other companies used. The third party has requested the course be removed from LinkedIn and Coca-Cola claims this course was never mandatory or part of their diversity program. Sounds like a lot of other companies, in various degrees, recommended or suggested the use of this course - the question is why and were they all aware of the content? If so, how high up in management at the 1,000s of various companies knew about it?
 

JessFR

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There was not much coverage about this over here, or it was, but no stories between newspapers seemed to line up.

I got the impression that it went like this;

Martin is walking in a neighborhood where Zimmerman is part of the neighborhood watch.
Zimmerman is in his car (?) because it is raining when he sees a teenager in a hoodie walking about and looking around.
Zimmerman calls law enforcement who tells him to stay put in his car. Zimmerman does not, but gets out and starts following Martin.
Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend saying to her somebody was following him.
Then within approximately 1-2 minutes the following happens (from what I read);
Martin asks Zimmerman why he's following him, and Zimmerman asks what his doing there.
Then Martins earpiece falls out for some reason. Gunshots ensue.

Zimmerman claims Martin attacked him, as in a 17-year old, unarmed kid talking to his gf, attacked Zimmerman, a man who was what, 29-years old?

And one side claims Martin busted his nose before getting shot. The other claims no such attack occured.

I look at pictures, and Zimmerman looks like a way bigger dude that Martin, but Martin just flew off the handle because somebody asked him what he was doing there?
I find no logic in this. At all. What I can't piece together either is, why did Zimmerman not stay in his car?

You find no logic in this? I've seen bluelighters here defend Martin for punishing Zimmerman in the face for the crime of following him. Who said if someone was following them like Zimmerman they too would have attacked him, because in their "culture" that's just what you do. (you know who you are). So please don't tell me no one would do that just cause it makes no sense. People don't make sense.

Now, ultimately there is only one relevant fact here... Who attacked first? If Zimmerman attacked, he's in the wrong. If Martin did though, then Zimmerman has a right to defend himself.

Being punched in the face can kill you, having your head smashed against something hard can kill you. If Martin did this, Zimmerman had every right to defend himself with lethal force.

And that's the problem because the photographs and police reports suggested Zimmerman was on his back, his back was wet from the rain, consistent with having been punched to the ground as he said.

He also had injuries to his face, consistent with having been punched. Martin had injuries to his fist, consistent with being the aggressor.

That is enough evidence for any jury to find Zimmerman not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And indeed that was the verdict.

It doesn't matter if he ignored the 911 instruction, it doesn't change the realities of the law.

As I've said before, don't punch someone in the face, if you do and they shoot you, chances are they'll face no penalty. Because you attacked them, and because punches to the face can both kill and cause permanent injury. That's sufficient to use lethal force, regardless of stand your ground laws.
 

pulverstaden

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yeah that whole thing was fishy, to put it mildly. If he didn't live in Florida, he'd be in jail. But in Florida, if you can convince a judge you were defending yourself, you can shoot people to death without any legal ramifications.

So fucked up.

A lot of people who are white grew up in a different subculture than people who aren't white

I did. There were 2 white families in our building, on the entire block maybe 5-6 in total.
The only kids I brushed up against were the white kids. My dads parents were from Finland and my moms parents were both gypsies, or 3-4th generation, so scandoromanians.
My sisters aren't white, per se. They've got my moms traits; darker skin complexion, brown eyes, dark, brown hair. I look Scandinavian, like my dads mirror image.

The kazakhs and kurds and Somalians I grew up with never gave a shit. But in every new school, as word got out, some fucker would slurr some bullshit at me.
One even came up to me and said "It's not your fault".

Even as an adult when I've said it, some people findit amusing to spit tasteless jokes in front of me.

I'm prejudice against people who are white, despite being it myself and having all the priviliges that comes with being white, blue-eyed and fairly dirtblonde.

Actually, it's only swedes. Norwegians didn't are, at all.

So, fuck swedes.
 

pulverstaden

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You find no logic in this? I've seen bluelighters here defend Martin for punishing Zimmerman in the face for the crime of following him (you know who you are).

Some people just embrace being a thug. Now, ultimately there is only one relevant fact here... Who attacked first? If Zimmerman attacked, he's in the wrong. If Martin did though, then Zimmerman has a right to defend himself.

Being punched in the face can kill you, having your head smashed against something hard can kill you. If Martin did this, Zimmerman had every right to defend this.

And that's the problem because the photographs and police reports suggested Zimmerman was on his back, his back was wet from the rain, consistent with having been punched to the ground as he said.

He also had injuries to his face, consistent with having been punched.

That is enough evidence for any jury to find Zimmerman not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And indeed that was the verdict.

It doesn't matter if he ignored the 911 instruction, it doesn't change the realities of the law.

As I've said before, don't punch someone in the face, if you do and they shoot you, chances are they'll face no penalty. Because you attacked them, and because punches to the face can both kill and cause permanent injury. That's sufficient to use lethal force, regardless of stand your ground laws.

Shit, I'd rather die from a single punch from a 17-year old kid than shoot him.

Chances are, when I was 17 and if some creepy dude started following me, and treating me like a criminal, I'd fucking sock him to.

Either way, looking at pictures of Zimmerman, what yiou see in his eyes is a submissive bitch (dog, not lady).

"Embrace being a thug"? Most so called thugs didn't wake up one day and decide, "Fuck, let's get thuggin'."

You grow up in a rough area, you become rough. You grow up in gated communities, you become scared of shit outside the fence.

Come on, saying the only relative fact when an ADULT, 12 YEAR OLDER FAT MAN SHOOTS AN UNARMED TEEN is who threw the first punch is just ...

Well, I back down. I can already tell we aren't gonna get somewhere here.

And just becuase something is right by the law, doesn't make it fucking right. In Sweden, you had the right to rape your wife until 1965.
Does that make it right?
 
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JessFR

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Shit, I'd rather die from a single punch from a 17-year old kid than shoot him.

Chances are, when I was 17 and if some creepy dude started following me, and treating me like a criminal, I'd fucking sock him to.

Either way, looking at pictures of Zimmerman, what yiou see in his eyes is a submissive bitch (dog, not lady).

But you sure seem enthustiastic about grown ups harrassing teenagers.

And just becuase something is right by the law, doesn't make it fucking right.

See? My point exactly. You'd have done it too. And just cause you'd rather die, doesn't mean someone else doesn't have the right to defend themselves.

I completely agree with the law. It shouldn't be my concern to protect your life just cause you wanna act like a thug and punch me for the horrible insult of following you.

Don't do it, don't act like a loser thug, then you don't get shot down like one.

If you wanna live like a thug, attacking people for perceived insults, one of your victims might just wind up fighting back and killing you. And you'll be the only one to blame.
 

pulverstaden

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See? My point exactly. You'd have done it too. And just cause you'd rather die, doesn't mean someone else doesn't have the right to defend themselves.

I completely agree with the law. It shouldn't be my concern to protect your life just cause you wanna act like a thug and punch me for the horrible insult of following you.

Don't do it, don't act like a loser thug, then you don't get shot down like one.

If you wanna live like a thug, attacking people for perceived insults, one of your victims might just wind up fighting back and killing you. And you'll be the only one to blame.

I'm asking in all sincerity now, was it proven beyond doubt Martin punched him?

You clearly misread.

Being followed is no big deal. Being treated like a criminal and a thug because of how you look, is.

I'm guessing you didn't grow up in a violent area. If I'm wrong, my apologiez.

I'm just not cool with adults shooting kids.
 

JessFR

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I'm asking in all sincerity now, was it proven beyond doubt Martin punched him?

You clearly misread.

Being followed is no big deal. Being treated like a criminal and a thug because of how you look, is.

I'm guessing you didn't grow up in a violent area. If I'm wrong, my apologiez.

I'm just not cool with adults shooting kids.

Look, I'm not jumping for joy about Martin's death either. I would much rather both have survived. Trayvon Marin was only 17 years old and should have had the chance to live a much longer life. Unfortunately young people, and yes, particularly young men, sometimes do stupid dangerous things..... usually they get the chance to learn from those mistakes, but sometimes they don't.

Now, you asked if I grew up in a violent areas... Ehhh... For the most part id say no.

But I have been the victim of violent assault, and I can imagine all too well how Zimmerman may have felt.

Regardless of how the situations got to that point, if I were attacked, and I were armed, like Zimmerman was, I wouldn't want or expect to have to worry about my attackers health. All I'd be thinking about is how to protect myself. And if I were armed, and had a gun, I'd shoot him. Of course I would, I don't think virtually anyone wouldn't. No matter what you think after the fact, in the moment all you're going to be thinking about is protecting yourself.

Even if you accept that Zimmerman shouldn't have got himself into this situation to start with, it was still Martin who started the fight. And Martin was not justified in starting it.

I accept that Trayvon Martin most likely had no intention to kill Zimmerman, but sometimes people end up killing people without meaning too... zimmermans account was that trayvon was smashing his head against the ground, even if that hadn't killed him it could have done permanent neurological injury.

If you're the victim of that.... why shouldn't you be allowed to defend yourself with lethal force? Of course you should. And I think most anyone would.
 

pulverstaden

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Look, I'm not jumping for joy about Martin's death either. I would much rather both have survived. Trayvon Marin was only 17 years old and should have had the chance to live a much longer life. Unfortunately young people, and yes, particularly young men, sometimes do stupid dangerous things..... usually they get the chance to learn from those mistakes, but sometimes they don't.

Now, you asked if I grew up in a violent areas... Ehhh... For the most part id say no.

But I have been the victim of violent assault, and I can imagine all too well how Zimmerman may have felt.

Regardless of how the situations got to that point, if I were attacked, and I were armed, like Zimmerman was, I wouldn't want or expect to have to worry about my attackers health. All I'd be thinking about is how to protect myself. And if I were armed, and had a gun, I'd shoot him. Of course I would, I don't think virtually anyone wouldn't. No matter what you think after the fact, in the moment all you're going to be thinking about is protecting yourself.

Even if you accept that Zimmerman shouldn't have got himself into this situation to start with, it was still Martin who started the fight. And Martin was not justified in starting it.

I accept that Trayvon Martin most likely had no intention to kill Zimmerman, but sometimes people end up killing people without meaning too... zimmermans account was that trayvon was smashing his head against the ground, even if that hadn't killed him it could have done permanent neurological injury.

If you're the victim of that.... why shouldn't you be allowed to defend yourself with lethal force? Of course you should. And I think most anyone would.

There it is. Compassion in your message, instead of a "fuck-him-he-deserved-it" kind of ring to it.

That made me go off, and answer like an asshole, in affect and not rational. It's an ugly side of me, and I'm working on it. Sorry about that.

And yes, we do. Most of us do make stupid fucking mistakes.

Well, I'm not gonna have a pissing contest, but I've been a victim of violent assault aswell.
And I grew up in the area that was considered the gutter of this city. I asked you this, because that shit affects you.
And not in a good way, most of the time.

But it has taught me a few things, and one thing is that if an unarmed kid came charging at me, I wouldn't shoot him if I owned a gun.
I wouldn't pull my knife that I always carry. Would I knock him on his ass? Yes, in all probability.

From where I'm standing, Zimmerman created this situation. But I know jack-shit about gated communitites.
Maybe that's how they roll there.


Anyway, you can skip what's next, but I got interested in who Zimmerman really is.
Quite fascinating...
And I read a bit on Zimmerman and thought about your comment on "thugs", so let's compare these two gentlemen
(and you might not find this relevant to this case, but look at the pattern);

Zimmerman;

2005;
- Arrested for felony resisting arrest "with violence" and with "battery" of a law enforcement officer.
This was when an undercover officer was making an arrest in a bar and Zimmerman interfered.
The cop showed his badge and asked Zimmerman to step away. Zimmermans response?
"I don't care who you are." Again, the officer tells Zimmerman to leave.
"Fuck you."
After which the officer tried leading Zimmerman away and he got physical with the officer.
His punishment? Anger management.

- Restraining order.
Zimmerman's ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo, petitioned for an order of "protection against domestic violence".
She also said there had been a previous act of violence when Zimmerman was "sexually groping me."
When she turned him down, he told her "I was his woman."
She asked him to leave her alone, and he picked her up and threw her on the bed.
She tried getting up and got thrown down again. She slapped him and left.

Another time he had smacked her mouth with an open hand in the car on their way back from a counseling session.
SHe got a restraining order, and the day after Zimmerman filed a petition asking the court to protect him from her.

2012;
- Zimmerman shoots Martin.
He claimed he'd been punched and fell to the ground, and somehow Martin, weighing 158-lb, pinned down 200-lb Zimmerman,
somehow saw the black gun that Zimmerman wore in a black holster on his back underneath his jacket and other clothing.
Martin then supposedly grabbed the gun from under him, but Zimmerman was able to take it from him and shoot him through the heart
while Martin was on top of him. Martin was found laying on his stomach. No fingerprints or DNA from Martin was found on the gun.

Later, it was revealed that the night before, he and his wife had a serious argument, causing her to leave and go to her dads.

Zimmerman had also worked as a security-guard, and one of his former co-worker said this to New York Daily News;

"it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When the dude snapped, he snapped. He had a temper and he became a liability," the man said. "One time this woman was acting
a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted. It was weird, because he wa such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up
and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ancle."


2013;
- Threatning to shoot wife and father in law.
His wife calls 911, after Zimmerman had accosted her father, injuring his nose and breaking his glasses,
saying she's really scared thehreathened to shoot her and her father. injured her fathers nose, took her iPad, smashed it and
cut it with a pocket knife, and threatened to shoot them.
His own attorney said "there may have been some pushing and touching," but that was simply "heightened emotions".

- Felony Assault
He (allegedly) broke a table after an argument with his ex with shotgun and then stood pointing it at her.
He was also charged with two misdemeanors -- domestic violence battery and criminal mischief.
Two years later, charged for domestic violence, again.
To me, that doesn't sound like someone who should be allowed to carry a firearm.

2015;
- Domestic Violence

Zimmerman is accused of throwing a wine bottle at a girlfriend. A new one.
"It's clear he hasn't been very lucky with the ladies the last few months," were the words of his lawyer.

2018;
- Accused of criminal stalking
Zimmerman was accused of repeatedly threatening and harassing Dennis Warren between December 16 and December 25 on the previous year.
Dennis was a P.I hired by a production company to make a documentary about Martin. Zimmerman called Warren 55 times, left 36 voicemails,
texted him 67 times and sent 27 emails over a nine-day span.

And, this is not a crime, simply something pointing out what kind of man he is;
Zimmerman tried to auction out the gun that killed Martin.



Martin;
2012;

10 day suspension from school for tardiness and residue of marijuana.
. . .

Zimmerman reminds me of a few guys I've known; they beat women, have no disregard for the law and wants to be thugs.

I have to ask again, did the evidence beyond reasonable doubt say Martin attacked him?
Do you still think Zimmerman was knocked out by a 17-year old?

Thank you for challenging me; I would never have found out what a complete shithead Zimmerman is.
A real stand-up citizen.
 

pulverstaden

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If anything I'm too passionate :p.

Just about anything I believe in I have a habit of ending up arguing as if it's some great moral principle with the weight of the world riding on it... what can I say I'm an emotional person :D.
Makes two of us, haha.

Whatever happened, was a fucking travesty.

I say Zimmerman, you say Martin. Leave it at that?

You're fun to argue with. I like you.
 

JessFR

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There it is. Compassion in your message, instead of a "fuck-him-he-deserved-it" kind of ring to it.

That made me go off, and answer like an asshole, in affect and not rational. It's an ugly side of me, and I'm working on it. Sorry about that.

And yes, we do. Most of us do make stupid fucking mistakes.

Well, I'm not gonna have a pissing contest, but I've been a victim of violent assault aswell.
And I grew up in the area that was considered the gutter of this city. I asked you this, because that shit affects you.
And not in a good way, most of the time.

But it has taught me a few things, and one thing is that if an unarmed kid came charging at me, I wouldn't shoot him if I owned a gun.
I wouldn't pull my knife that I always carry. Would I knock him on his ass? Yes, in all probability.

From where I'm standing, Zimmerman created this situation. But I know jack-shit about gated communitites.
Maybe that's how they roll there.


Anyway, you can skip what's next, but I got interested in who Zimmerman really is.
Quite fascinating...
And I read a bit on Zimmerman and thought about your comment on "thugs", so let's compare these two gentlemen
(and you might not find this relevant to this case, but look at the pattern);

Zimmerman;

2005;
- Arrested for felony resisting arrest "with violence" and with "battery" of a law enforcement officer.
This was when an undercover officer was making an arrest in a bar and Zimmerman interfered.
The cop showed his badge and asked Zimmerman to step away. Zimmermans response?
"I don't care who you are." Again, the officer tells Zimmerman to leave.
"Fuck you."
After which the officer tried leading Zimmerman away and he got physical with the officer.
His punishment? Anger management.

- Restraining order.
Zimmerman's ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo, petitioned for an order of "protection against domestic violence".
She also said there had been a previous act of violence when Zimmerman was "sexually groping me."
When she turned him down, he told her "I was his woman."
She asked him to leave her alone, and he picked her up and threw her on the bed.
She tried getting up and got thrown down again. She slapped him and left.

Another time he had smacked her mouth with an open hand in the car on their way back from a counseling session.
SHe got a restraining order, and the day after Zimmerman filed a petition asking the court to protect him from her.

2012;
- Zimmerman shoots Martin.
He claimed he'd been punched and fell to the ground, and somehow Martin, weighing 158-lb, pinned down 200-lb Zimmerman,
somehow saw the black gun that Zimmerman wore in a black holster on his back underneath his jacket and other clothing.
Martin then supposedly grabbed the gun from under him, but Zimmerman was able to take it from him and shoot him through the heart
while Martin was on top of him. Martin was found laying on his stomach. No fingerprints or DNA from Martin was found on the gun.

Later, it was revealed that the night before, he and his wife had a serious argument, causing her to leave and go to her dads.

Zimmerman had also worked as a security-guard, and one of his former co-worker said this to New York Daily News;

"it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When the dude snapped, he snapped. He had a temper and he became a liability," the man said. "One time this woman was acting
a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted. It was weird, because he wa such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up
and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ancle."


2013;
- Threatning to shoot wife and father in law.
His wife calls 911, after Zimmerman had accosted her father, injuring his nose and breaking his glasses,
saying she's really scared thehreathened to shoot her and her father. injured her fathers nose, took her iPad, smashed it and
cut it with a pocket knife, and threatened to shoot them.
His own attorney said "there may have been some pushing and touching," but that was simply "heightened emotions".

- Felony Assault
He (allegedly) broke a table after an argument with his ex with shotgun and then stood pointing it at her.
He was also charged with two misdemeanors -- domestic violence battery and criminal mischief.
Two years later, charged for domestic violence, again.
To me, that doesn't sound like someone who should be allowed to carry a firearm.

2015;
- Domestic Violence

Zimmerman is accused of throwing a wine bottle at a girlfriend. A new one.
"It's clear he hasn't been very lucky with the ladies the last few months," were the words of his lawyer.

2018;
- Accused of criminal stalking
Zimmerman was accused of repeatedly threatening and harassing Dennis Warren between December 16 and December 25 on the previous year.
Dennis was a P.I hired by a production company to make a documentary about Martin. Zimmerman called Warren 55 times, left 36 voicemails,
texted him 67 times and sent 27 emails over a nine-day span.

And, this is not a crime, simply something pointing out what kind of man he is;
Zimmerman tried to auction out the gun that killed Martin.



Martin;
2012;

10 day suspension from school for tardiness and residue of marijuana.
. . .

Zimmerman reminds me of a few guys I've known; they beat women, have no disregard for the law and wants to be thugs.

I have to ask again, did the evidence beyond reasonable doubt say Martin attacked him?
Do you still think Zimmerman was knocked out by a 17-year old?

Thank you for challenging me; I would never have found out what a complete shithead Zimmerman is.
A real stand-up citizen.

You're doing exactly the same thing people (and especially the right wing media) do with all those unarmed black men the police gun down with virtually no provocation and any number of other options.

You're attacking the victims history, even though it has nothing to do with the events at hand.

You can use someone's character to argue state of mind, but that's only relevant if state of mind is at question. In this case however it's not.

It doesn't matter what Zimmerman has done or how much of an asshole he is, if Martin attacked Zimmerman, Zimmerman had a right to defend himself.


This is from a defense expert but I've seen records before that have also said similar. The forensic evidence, which is much more persuasive than witness accounts anyway because witnesses are often wrong even when they're telling the truth, all suggest Martin attacked Zimmerman.

And that's all that matters.

Going by the evidence, he had no ability to withdraw from the altercation once it turned violent, so it's not even a question of stand your ground vs duty to retreat (though for the record I'm on the side of stand your ground anyway).

All this "oh but Zimmerman should have been able to win without shooting" it's nonsense. He's under no obligation, and shouldn't be expected to take risks with his life to preserve his attackers once his attacker starts a violent encounter and he has no ability to safely escape from it. And nor should he be.

Imagine you're in Zimmerman position, you think someone's a robber and you're following him cause you're part of the neighbourhood watch. You're trying to watch and report. Then the person you're watching punches you in the face to the ground unprovoked, he smashes your head to the ground, you gonna tell me you aren't gonna reach for your weapon? How strong do you gotta be to be over someone and smash their head into the ground? Not very. You go for your gun, your attacker tries to take it off you, you telling me you won't shoot them and end the altercation soon as you're able too? I don't care if it were a 14 year old girl, you don't think about that shit in the moment, self preservation kicks in, you just do it.

And anyone else would. And the law should side with you over your attacker how is it fair that you're responsible when they attacked you? You did nothing illegal, you were where you had a right to be. It's not against any law not to follow a 911 dispatchers advice, if indeed that's what he did.

If you wanna argue that Martin just couldn't help himself, well I think that arguments pretty weak, but it doesn't matter because that doesn't change who's ultimately at fault. It just makes it sadder. Blame the system for not doing more to give him a better environment to have been raised in.

But frankly if someone attacks me I don't wanna be obligated to risk my life for their crime because of what life circumstances he might have faced growing up. I went through a lot of bad shit growing up, I have had issues controlling my actions and not lashing out inappropriately.

But ultimately you are responsible for your actions and if you can't get it under control, it'll get you into trouble and ultimately it's not other people's responsibility to be concerned for your life circumstances when you attacked them.
 
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pulverstaden

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$TARDU$T
You're doing exactly the same thing people (and especially the right wing media) do with all those unarmed black men the police gun down with virtually no provocation and any number of other options.

You're attacking the victims history, even though it has nothing to do with the events at hand.

You can use someone's character to argue state of mind, but that's only relevant if state of mind is at question. In this case however it's not.

Haha, first time I've been called right-wing.
I'm not from America, what I know about cops is what I see on the news, and read online - also, I'm not a minority that gets profiled (you can't argue with profiling? That shit happens here in Sweden aswell, except the cops aren't allowed to fire their weapon as freely as american cops seem to be); as I white person, I've been very wrongly profiled by police many times. Because I am white, I have been able to portray myself as a victim when in reality, I wasn't. But fuck the cop-aspect.

I'd say it has everything to do with it. My sister is living at an undisclosed location because her dick boyfriend was a woman-beating piece of shit.
And as it turned out during the investigation, every single one of his exes said the same thing.
That is highly relevant because it dispalys the individuals persona. If it's a pattern without exception, it is relevant.

Zimmermans wife left him the night before, he had been aggressive against cops, had to do anger management, and you say his state of mind was irrelevant`?
He has been accused by SEVERAL other women of domestic abuse, he has no disregard for police; how can you overlook this?

This is from a defense expert but I've seen records before that have also said similar. The forensic evidence, which is much more persuasive than witness accounts anyway because witnesses are often wrong even when they're telling the truth, all suggest Martin attacked Zimmerman.

Allrighty then, that's what I wanted answered. It's a fucking travesty, but no, I do not deny anyone the right to defend themselves. And did Martin punch him, without being provoked;
well then, tough shit Martin - you dug your hole. I can't argue with evidence.

But I don't believe for a second Zimmermans version of what lead up to the gun going off.

All this "oh but Zimmerman should have been able to win without shooting" it's nonsense. He's under no obligation, and shouldn't be expected to take risks with his life to preserve his attackers once his attacker starts a violent encounter and he has no ability to safely escape from it. And nor should he be.

Imagine you're in Zimmerman position, you think someone's a robber and you're following him cause you're part of the neighbourhood watch. You're trying to watch and report. Then the person you're watching punches you in the face to the ground unprovoked, he smashes your head to the ground, you gonna tell me you aren't gonna reach for your weapon? How strong do you gotta be to be over someone and smash their head into the ground? Not very. You go for your gun, your attacker tries to take it off you, you telling me you won't shoot them and end the altercation soon as you're able too? I don't care if it were a 14 year old girl, you don't think about that shit in the moment, self preservation kicks in, you just do it.

He is not, no. But reading Zimmermans history, I questioned the whole scenario.

We have no idea how Zimmermans disposition was at the time. He might have been very hostile, which his history suggests he has a tendency to be, OFTEN.
As a scrawny dude, I can tell you that pinning a bigger, heavier man to the ground is not an easy task. Also, have you seen what happens if someone starts beating another persons head to the ground? Or experienced it? I have, because I did it to the man who beat and raped my sister. They go limp, or in best case, disoriented to the point they can't control themselves.
Again, no DNA or fingerprints on the gun from Martin.

You might not make the distinction between shooting a 14-year old girl, but I certainly do.

But I'll play along - though as if the attacker was a grown man, because I can't imagine myself beating down on someone who has every disadvantage to me.

If it transpired just as you perceive it, him nailing me down, beating my head to the ground, and this somehow still leaves me fully conscious to go for my gun (even though Zimmerman said Martin went for it), I'd empty the mag into him, of course.

I'm not saying you have the right to defend yourself, but I DON'T BUY THIS STORY given the big picture, not just the night when it transpired.

Zimmerman is obviously mentally ill man with sociopathic tratis (too stupid to be a psychopath) and violent tendencies.
I think Zimmerman was butthurt over his wife bailing, saw a potential outlet for his rage (black male, hoodie, nightime, America - that's how you get away with murder; at least that's how most of the world sees America) and called in dispatch to have his back covered. He approached Martin, Martin puts up a fight, but Zimmerman shoots him.


If you wanna argue that Martin just couldn't help himself, well I think that arguments pretty weak, but it doesn't matter because that doesn't change who's ultimately at fault. It just makes it sadder. Blame the system for not doing more to give him a better environment to have been raised in.

But frankly if someone attacks me I don't wanna be obligated to risk my life for their crime because of what life circumstances he might have faced growing up. I went through a lot of bad shit growing up, I have had issues controlling my actions and not lashing out inappropriately.

But ultimately you are responsible for your actions and if you can't get it under control, it'll get you into trouble and ultimately it's not other people's responsibility to be concerned for your life circumstances when you attacked them.

I don't argue he couldn't help himself. I question Zimmermans judgement. The system didn't shoot him. An unstable, violent grown up did. That's who I blame.

And you're not obligated to risk your life, I'm not saying that at all. I've pulled knifes on people and hitting them with lead-pipes and beer bottles when attacked.
But those were grown men.

You say you had issues controlling your actions and lashing out.
Martin lashed out and paid a price, and according to you, despite it being a tragedy, he had it coming.
What you're saying is basically that you also would've deserved if an you lashed out at shot you, but growing up, but you didn't meet a Zimmerman.

We can continue playing semantics, but here is my view on it;
Did Martin out of the blue attack an innocent Zimmerman, him being shot is not Zimmmermans fault.

But I don't buy into that scenario, and unless I see a video showing this, I'm not gonna buy into it, no matter what you say or argue.

I do believe reasonable adults would not have handled this situation like this.

And I don't believe that you s´would shoot a 14 year old, unarmed girl, no matter what you say.
That is some next level malice, and I can't imagine you as that kind of person.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I hope not, because then I would sincerely pity you.
 

JessFR

Sr. Moderator: AADD, H&R, TDS
Staff member
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Messages
12,677
Haha, first time I've been called right-wing.
I'm not from America, what I know about cops is what I see on the news, and read online - also, I'm not a minority that gets profiled (you can't argue with profiling? That shit happens here in Sweden aswell, except the cops aren't allowed to fire their weapon as freely as american cops seem to be); as I white person, I've been very wrongly profiled by police many times. Because I am white, I have been able to portray myself as a victim when in reality, I wasn't. But fuck the cop-aspect.

I'd say it has everything to do with it. My sister is living at an undisclosed location because her dick boyfriend was a woman-beating piece of shit.
And as it turned out during the investigation, every single one of his exes said the same thing.
That is highly relevant because it dispalys the individuals persona. If it's a pattern without exception, it is relevant.

I'm not calling you right wing, I'm trying to highlight that essentially what you're doing is the same as the borderline racist shit they do. It's just in my view people are inclined to take the side they want to be in the right, and in keeping with their world view. It's human. But it means people tend to either always take the black guys side, or always the authority/white person size (which is weird in itself given zimmerman was neither a cop nor white, but it seems in being armed and his attacker unarmed and black, he's kinda defaulted to being the 'white' side so to speak).

I am human, I have a tendency towards bias too of course, but I try to evaluate the situation on a case by case basis, sometimes I side with the cops/authority/armed/notblack side, sometimes I don't. In this case I can't.

Zimmermans wife left him the night before, he had been aggressive against cops, had to do anger management, and you say his state of mind was irrelevant`?
He has been accused by SEVERAL other women of domestic abuse, he has no disregard for police; how can you overlook this?

If we had no forensic evidence, if it were just zimmermans word, then I think you could argue his state of mind being relevant, Because you could argue that him being the aggressor is in keeping with his character and we would have reason to doubt his word alone.

But we DO have forensic evidence, and it is consistent, or at least consistent enough with his view of events to suggest it probably went down how he described, or at least close enough.

For zimmerman to be at fault, he would had to have attacked first, which means either he shouldn't have been injured, because he simply took out his gun and shot martin, which obviously isn't what happened. Or... he attacked first without a weapon, then when martin fought back, he shot him. That isn't consistent with the forensic evidence either though.

Even if zimmerman was a violent dirtbag, that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened the way he said it did... and given the evidence suggests it did, how can it be justified siding against him?

I wasn't there, I can't say with absolute certainty what happened. But I can't side with trayvon martin when the evidence shows he almost certainly was the aggressor.
In light of that, no I don't think zimmermans history is relevant. Because the strength of the character evidence is overwhelmed by the strength of the forensic evidence.

Allrighty then, that's what I wanted answered. It's a fucking travesty, but no, I do not deny anyone the right to defend themselves. And did Martin punch him, without being provoked;
well then, tough shit Martin - you dug your hole. I can't argue with evidence.

But I don't believe for a second Zimmermans version of what lead up to the gun going off.

I probably wouldn't have either if his word was all we had. But it's not. As for provocation. The only provocation that would matter would be violence. You aren't justified in using violence just because you think someones following you, or because you think they think you're a robber. The only provocation that would change anything would be if zimmerman took a swing at martin and missed, and martin fought back. That possibility can't be completely excluded. But it shouldn't just be presumed that zimmerman was guilty and we shouldn't tie ourselves in knots looking for some version of what might have happened that would make him guilty. The available forensic evidence suggests martin was the attacker.

I'm not god, I wasn't there, I can't say with certainty what happened. But given the forensic evidence backs zimmerman, it's crazy to assume he's in the wrong.

He is not, no. But reading Zimmermans history, I questioned the whole scenario.

We have no idea how Zimmermans disposition was at the time. He might have been very hostile, which his history suggests he has a tendency to be, OFTEN.
As a scrawny dude, I can tell you that pinning a bigger, heavier man to the ground is not an easy task. Also, have you seen what happens if someone starts beating another persons head to the ground? Or experienced it? I have, because I did it to the man who beat and raped my sister. They go limp, or in best case, disoriented to the point they can't control themselves.
Again, no DNA or fingerprints on the gun from Martin.

It doesn't matter, martin doesn't have had to have actually grabbed the gun to be at fault. All he needed to do was start the fight.
The right to self defense in virtually all jurisdictions takes effect once a reasonable person would believe their life is in danger (reasonably to be clear just means, whatever an average jury would side with). If you're punched to the ground... and we have forensic evidence that that much happened. And your attacker continues to attack you, that's enough to justify lethal force. You can't be expected to predict your attackers intentions, if he might also be armed in some way, what he might do next. So long as you know he is attacking you and plans to continue the attack, that's enough.

Maybe zimmerman was hostile, who knows, it doesn't though because it still doesn't justify initiating the use of force.
You aren't ever gonna get a jury to buy self defense against the attack of racist language. At best you might get a lighter sentence on your assault charge for verbal provocation.
Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. You're allowed to not like him, but he should not have been found guilty under the available evidence.

You might not make the distinction between shooting a 14-year old girl, but I certainly do.

But I'll play along - though as if the attacker was a grown man, because I can't imagine myself beating down on someone who has every disadvantage to me.

If it transpired just as you perceive it, him nailing me down, beating my head to the ground, and this somehow still leaves me fully conscious to go for my gun (even though Zimmerman said Martin went for it), I'd empty the mag into him, of course.

I'm not saying you have the right to defend yourself, but I DON'T BUY THIS STORY given the big picture, not just the night when it transpired.

Zimmerman is obviously mentally ill man with sociopathic tratis (too stupid to be a psychopath) and violent tendencies.
I think Zimmerman was butthurt over his wife bailing, saw a potential outlet for his rage (black male, hoodie, nightime, America - that's how you get away with murder; at least that's how most of the world sees America) and called in dispatch to have his back covered. He approached Martin, Martin puts up a fight, but Zimmerman shoots him.

Sooo.. he approached martin, martin 'puts up a fight'.... what so zimmerman attacked first? cause that's not how the forensics appear. And if martin attacked first he's still at fault.
This is all wild speculation though. And frankly while I wouldn't buy zimmermans story if that was all the evidence we had, I wouldn't buy yours either. Zimmerman was a long time member of his neighborhood watch and had called police several times regarding possible criminals in the past. He never shot any of them.

So what, he decides to shoot the next one cause he had an argument with his wife? There's no evidence for that and it's faaar less likely than his version of events.

And again, there's no reason to presume trayvon martin was innocent and zimmerman was guilty. Yet that's what you're doing, bending over backwards to find some way consistent with the evidence to make zimmerman guilty, why? Why wouldn't you just go with the actual concrete evidence we have, which is the forensic evidence, that was consistent with zimmermans account?


I don't argue he couldn't help himself. I question Zimmermans judgement. The system didn't shoot him. An unstable, violent grown up did. That's who I blame.

And you're not obligated to risk your life, I'm not saying that at all. I've pulled knifes on people and hitting them with lead-pipes and beer bottles when attacked.
But those were grown men.

You say you had issues controlling your actions and lashing out.
Martin lashed out and paid a price, and according to you, despite it being a tragedy, he had it coming.
What you're saying is basically that you also would've deserved if an you lashed out at shot you, but growing up, but you didn't meet a Zimmerman.

We can continue playing semantics, but here is my view on it;
Did Martin out of the blue attack an innocent Zimmerman, him being shot is not Zimmmermans fault.

But I don't buy into that scenario, and unless I see a video showing this, I'm not gonna buy into it, no matter what you say or argue.

I do believe reasonable adults would not have handled this situation like this.

And I don't believe that you s´would shoot a 14 year old, unarmed girl, no matter what you say.
That is some next level malice, and I can't imagine you as that kind of person.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I hope not, because then I would sincerely pity you.

Well I didn't lash out like we are talking here. I'm saying that I've had trouble controlling my feelings and, probably partly because of my history of abuse, have had trouble not lashing out in the moment. But there's a world of difference between losing control, hitting someone, and then immediately realizing what you've done and stopping, and what trayvon martin likely did.

I don't believe you wouldn't shoot a 14 year old girl. I don't believe almost anyone wouldn't shoot almost anybody if they really thought their life was in danger. In that kind of situation you aren't thinking about these kinds of moral questions.

Trayvon Martin was 3 inches staller than Zimmerman, The forensics showed zimmerman had been physically assaulted. The photos show he has a bloody nose, injury to his face, and the back of his head. Just as he described,

Trayvon martins autopsy showed that other than the gunshot, his only injuries were to his hands.

How is that not enough evidence? Imagine if you were attacked, imagine there were photos of your injuries while your attacker had no injuries other than the gunshot and the fists he used to attack you? And yet the world and the media labels you the aggressor?

It's completely fucked up. You're just assuming zimmerman is guilty based on completely biased reasons and refusing anything less than absolute proof to contradict it. That's not how you conduct a reasoned analysis of what side you should take.

At the very least we know with pretty much complete certainty that zimmerman was on his back, that zimmerman had been assaulted to the face, that martins only injuries were the gunshot and to his hands. That all spells martin as the attacker and that's why I side with zimmerman.
 

birdup.snaildown

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 5, 2020
Messages
1,095
People shouldn't be stalking other people for no reason with concealed weapons. Black. White. Zimmerman. Martin. I don't care. You can't shoot someone dead because they punched you if you were following them around and questioning them with no authority, but you also can't punch someone because they're following you. Neither of them are in the right. One of them killed someone. The other one assaulted someone. I don't know why these situations always need to be looked at in terms of good and evil. People are just people. Shit happens.

There are a lot of incidents of black people killing black people and black people killing police and white people killing white people and there's even some black people killing white people and some white people killing blacks. It's not about race. The majority of black people who are killed are murdered by other black people. Why is the focus with BLM rallies always on the police killing people?
 

What 23

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
3,888
I bought something for my niece at a CVS store. There was an African man there at the register trying to buy chocolate. He seemed new to it - to the U.S. - to this tradition if Valentine's Day. I took him back to the more expensive chocolates. He was lost. The girl at the checkout - Black - thanked me for helping him.

My thoughts after this were that I felt bad that Black Lives Matter existed and that people protest too much - thinking we need to "virtue signal" to the point of faking or feigning interest/support. And it does often seem fake. Or, that there is the protest itself, Black Lives Matter - sucks we need a reminder. They need reminded! Pound it in! You betta believe it!

It's like shoving a participation trophy on an entire race of people simply because they belong to that race, expecting them to perform at a lesser level, as if they have, and will always. Here is this individual.

And before we even get a chance to meet, this kind, thinking intelligent female person, someone has shoved this identity in my face (and mine! As they see it!), as something I am supposed to feel ashamed over in some way... Or the fact that it needs or that people think it needs to be shoved down our throats.... "Black Lives Matter!" (Lest ye forget!).

Stupid bull.

I'm tired of special months. I was so happy "Pride Month" got taken over by the rage.
 
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