Misc Benztropine as an opioid potentiator?

[Changa707]

Greetings fellow Greenlighters, Bluelighters, & Lurkers.

I recently have been experimenting with anticholinergic & antihistamine - Opioid combinations. I realize these two classes of drugs aren't exactly the same, but often anticholinergic drugs are also antihistamines and vice versa. Here in Canada it seems that pharmacies have stopped selling Promethazine, although it is currently still listed OTC. But what I have been able to come across is Norflex (Orphenadrine Citrate) 100 mg tabs, which are also OTC in Canada.
I have been combining 100-200 mg Orphenadrine Citrate with smoked Heroin and it seems to almost overpower the Heroin...the nod is quite a bit headier and stronger, but at the expense of having very mild "shadow-people"-like symptoms and a very dry mouth.

So anyways, I just stumbled across some Benztropine 2 mg tabs (they are scored in quarters, so 4 X 0.5 mg). My question, how are the effects of Benztropine similiar/dissimilar to the effects of Orphenadrine Citrate and/or Promethazine? How many milligrams of Benztropine are equal (roughly) to 100 mg Orphenadrine Citrate?

Cheers

 

[sekio]

Benztropine is not very much fun, it's getting into the datura zone of way excessive anticholinergic agonism.

I don't think you can do a direct comparison between orphenadrine and benztropine. Orphenadrine is also a SNRI and histamine blocker.

 

[Changa707]

Sekio, thanks for the quick reply. I realize that anticholinergics aren't recreational for everyone, and can cause hallucinations even at medicinal dosages. However, I have always been fascinated by the history of anesthesia, and the various combinations used to induce the so called 'Twilight Sleep' (Opioid + Anticholinergic + Stimulant?). I think the Germans used a combination of Eukodol (old trade name for oxycodone) scopolamine, & ephedrine.
Do you suppose there is any possibility of added euphoria/dissociation from the addition of a low dose anticholingeric agonist like atropine? Btw, I was getting a mild sensation of "leaving my body" while on 200 mg Orphenadrine Citrate, and I must say it felt quite pleasant...though the dry mouth and shadows in the corner of my eyes were a slight annoyance, I feel there is potential in anticholinergics to produce euphoria and possibly help me cut down my heroin use.

Out of curiosity Sekio, which anticholinergics have you dabbled with and did you find any of the effects pleasurable?

 

[sekio]

I don't think anticholinergics are used in concert with opioids for the euphoric effects, more for the potentiating of the painkilling effects.

I have only had benztropine when fucked up on haloperidol, so make of that what you will. Other than that I have had nothing but diphenhydramine... and I guess triprolidine.

 

[Changa707]

Sekio, thats interesting that you have experience with benzotropine while on haloperidol...I have never taken antipsychotics before, but I imagine they would dull the anticholinergic effects of benztropine? What was your intention taking that combination at the time?

 

[Changa707]

Take that back what I said about having never taken an antipsychotic...I have taken Promethazine, which is a weak antipsychotic. Does that count? Sorry i'm getting off track here, but is haloperidol comparable quetiapine? I have some lying around and am just curious about pretty much every substance I come across.

 

[sekio]

What was your intention taking that combination at the time?

I didn't have a choice at the time, I was in the loony bin.

Haloperidol is about as fun as being rendered paralytic from a major stroke. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. If you have it I'd save it for maybe sedating a raging, out of control bear on your property, or something like that. Don't use it to potentiate your opioids because about 24 hours later you will be 100% down off your high and just generally miserably dystonic.

I think quetiapine is a few rungs down the ladder, so to speak. But it's still pretty... broad spectrum. Promethazine is really more of an antihistamine than anything else but it does still give people an OK time. ('lean' etc)

If you have orphenadrine I'd just stick with that. It's pleasingly multispectrum and has at least some evidence that it actually doubles as an analgesic. Anticholinergics are a real no-mans land, there is a reason nobody is routinely given atropine for analgesia, for instance... besides the fact it can fuck up heart rhythms, it's just No Fun.

 

[Changa707]

Hey Sekio, next time i'm out in bear country i'll pack some haloperidol! Yea antipsychotics don't sound pleasant, seems like they turn you into a vegetable. Anyhow, I took 100 mg of orphenadrine citrate a little over 8 hours ago and still am feeling side effects such as very dry mouth and mild restlessness...and itching, which I am not sure is due to the heroin I smoked or the orphenadrine. I have a feeling this flap of heroin is cut with something else, though it runs on foil and tastes like H...After smoking 30 mg on foil I felt pretty stoned but my pupils looked regular size...which is usually how I guage my opioid high, by checking pupil size. When they are constricted I know i'm high...but in this case I felt high but pupils were normal. Could the Orphenadrine be mimicking the opioid analgesia/itching?
PS. I feel that this may have been real heroin, but it was a very light tan powder that I think is meant for banging....the stuff I usually smoke is darker brown but doesn't run on foil as well. Both taste reminiscent of some sort of baked good/bread which I really enjoy....after inhaling I am left with a bitter taste in my mouth.

 

[sekio]

Nobody can tell you how potent your gear is over the internet, but dry mouth/dilated pupils is a well known side effect of higher doses of antiocholinergics. Itching is actually counteracted by the same drugs though, orph and other stuff like diphenhydramine are fairly potent histamine blockers.

 

[Thomas29]

I think Orphenadrine would Work A Bit Better But I Don't have Any Experience with the Other.

 

[Changa707]

True Sekio, no way of knowing without doing a HPLC...I am truly interested in sending various heroin samples to labs for analyzation, but not sure about the legality of that (and I am aware we do not discuss legal matters here) however, I know there are websites like pillreports...are you aware of other labs that test street drug purity for research and HR purposes?
I'm sure there are already other groups out there regularly testing street drug purity, though it has been hard for me to find up-to-date information on this kind of stuff.
Sorry again for going off topic, maybe there is a thread that deals with these sorts of questions...among other things I would be very interested in a "History of pharmaceutical drug abuse" sub-forum/thread...does this exist yet?

Also, I was experiencing a lot of itching last night and this morning, are anticholinergics known to produce pruritus? I always thought anticholinergics/antihistamines were used to prevent itching, though it seems that the Orphenadrine left me itching long after dosing my H (I think Orphenadrine Citrate has an 8 hour duration of action).
Could it be that the Orphenadrine reveresed the miosis of the heroin, hence why my pupils looked regular size (although I felt warm and fuzzy, but no strong nod)?

 

[mostly-human]

Slightly off topic, but my wife & I are both heavy Heroin users and our experience potentiating with promethazine is that we become a bit more tired and a lot more grumpy and that overall, it's not really worth it as a potentiator; although it may also help with nausea.

 

[Changa707]

Haven't had much experience with promethazine, only used it a few times in oral solution (codeine/promethazine syrup). Your description of the effects is pretty much spot on, and compared to orphenadrine citrate I find promethazine to be inferior because of it's groggy side effects. Orphenadrine citrate seems to have a stimulating effect that goes nicely with codeine. About 2 hours ago I took 50 mg orphenadrine citrate (OrfenAce), 600 mg gabapentin, & 30 mg oxazepam (Serax). Then 1 hour later I took 3 T3's. I am currently feeling quite warm and satisfied, oddly enough I have a strong urge to do some kind of physical activity...feel quite tipsy and energized.
In conclusion, I think 50 mg orphenadrine is the way to go...it seems to prevent some of the itching, yet doesn't have overpowering CNS effects. 100-200 mg orphenadrine citrate overpowers the codeine, and produces too many side effects IMO (dry mouth being the worst).

Next time I am thinking of trying a very low dose of 12.5 mg quietipine + 0.25 mg benztropine + 1.25 mg scopolia Extract (South Korean brand known as Q DICE CAP, which is used to treat abdominal discomfort) along with the above combo...would this be safe/advisable?