Benzos Avoiding diazepam dependence

[BernardMcGillicudy]

Hi everyone,

A little background: I'm a twenty-three-year-old male, 5'11", around 135 lbs., moderately sedentary (desk job), long history of anxiety and anxiety-related phenomena, fairly regular but relatively moderate alcohol intake, moderate-to-heavy caffeine use since thirteen, rare cannabis use, 75mg of sertraline (which may increase), vanishingly rare ritalin use, no other meaningful history with drugs.

I was recently prescribed diazepam in 5mg increments. It's a wonderfully helpful drug for me — I have no intention of cutting myself off from it — but I am concerned about the potential for physical addiction and other nasty long-term effects. I'm aware that 5mg is quite a small dose, but I'd like to play it safe (particularly if the dosage ever increases).

So what's the maximum frequency with which can I take 5mg of Valium — indefinitely, if possible — without paying any meaningful costs? I've heard that five days on/two days off comes without the risk of withdrawal (e.g., this thread) — but, given the lengthy half-life of diazepam, and the even lengthier half-life of its active metabolites, I'm skeptical that this is doing anything but preventing acute symptoms.

I should also clarify that I have no intention of taking Valium, or any benzodiazepine, with "maximum frequency." I'm curious about the upper threshold so I can be confident that I'm not exceeding it.

Any advice would be really appreciated!

 

[jetamine]

Hey,

I've been on 50mg sertraline for about 2 weeks now, can't say I've noticed any difference so far though. Bit of a heavy coffee drinker myself, even though I know it's not ideal when I also struggle with anxiety.

I've got a large past of valium consumption, but wasn't aware that it was an addictive drug at the time. Was introduced to it by friends in university and loved it, thankfully I didn't fall too deep with it and got out quickly. Only time I will use it now is for horrid comedowns.

I wouldn't reccomend anyone to use valium as a long term medication, your tolerance builds rapidly, before you know it you won't even feel any affects from 5mg. Alot of doctors these days really don't understand the dangers of long term use of benzo's. I think they're brilliant for short term relief. Unfortunately I really do think you'll find yourself in a bit of trouble even if you decide to to do 5 days on and 2 days off or anything similar.

Your situation is very much like mine. Have you ever considered doing some CBT to try combat your anxiety? While keeping your valium for rare occaisons for when you would really benefit from it.

 

[deos68]

i follow what i am about to write and it hasnt let me down
also having severe anxiety for lack of a better way to put it grow a **** and deal with anxiety i know for dam sure its not easy but if you want to minimize the risk of dependency push through it until you cant anymore i have 25/8 anxiety and i keep my hand out of the cookie jar until i cant take it anymore
i also have diazepam and xanax i take either one maybe 2 to 3 days out of the week some weeks i dont take anything i have been able handle anxiety and panic attacks not run from it
but i do not redose on any given day <---by this alone i still get relief from .125mg to .25mg of xanax or 2.5mg of valium after 5 months of having access to both
CBT therapy helps a lot although some of it i find comical but still plenty of useful info

 

[deos68]

Hey,

I've been on 50mg sertraline for about 2 weeks now, can't say I've noticed any difference so far though. Bit of a heavy coffee drinker myself, even though I know it's not ideal when I also struggle with anxiety.

I've got a large past of valium consumption, but wasn't aware that it was an addictive drug at the time. Was introduced to it by friends in university and loved it, thankfully I didn't fall too deep with it and got out quickly. Only time I will use it now is for horrid comedowns.

I wouldn't reccomend anyone to use valium as a long term medication, your tolerance builds rapidly, before you know it you won't even feel any affects from 5mg. Alot of doctors these days really don't understand the dangers of long term use of benzo's. I think they're brilliant for short term relief. Unfortunately I really do think you'll find yourself in a bit of trouble even if you decide to to do 5 days on and 2 days off or anything similar.

Your situation is very much like mine. Have you ever considered doing some CBT to try combat your anxiety? While keeping your valium for rare occaisons for when you would really benefit from it.

zoloft needs about a good month maybe 2 to feel any type of therapeutic effect

 

[jetamine]

i follow what i am about to write and it hasnt let me down
also having severe anxiety for lack of a better way to put it grow a **** and deal with anxiety i know for dam sure its not easy but if you want to minimize the risk of dependency push through it until you cant anymore i have 25/8 anxiety and i keep my hand out of the cookie jar until i cant take it anymore
i also have diazepam and xanax i take either one maybe 2 to 3 days out of the week some weeks i dont take anything i have been able handle anxiety and panic attacks not run from it
but i do not redose on any given day <---by this alone i still get relief from .125mg to .25mg of xanax or 2.5mg of valium after 5 months of having access to both
CBT therapy helps a lot although some of it i find comical but still plenty of useful info

That's great that you've got control over your situation. I think I'm just very closed to the idea of long term benzo use due to my experience. I jumped straight into high doses of valium from the beginning as I just thought it was the norm; it was never prescribed to me and was oblivious to the risks. I didn't even know you could get valium in 2mg tablets until I contacted my GP for help, she did actually prescribe my some 2mg tablets but I didn't bother using them, my tolerance was too ridiculous to get any benefit from them.

I haven't had CBT myself, but heard good things about it. I may give it a bash in the future!

 

[Runtoparadise]

I've taken Diaz for roughly fifteen yrs on & off. I don't find it a seductive drug at all & find I can be with or without it.

Initially I was prescribed 5mg 3x daily, for anxiety & OCD,- but as time went on obviously tolerance builds, so feeling no benefit I'd often just cease taking it myself.

Now I'm meant to take 2mgs twice daily as a muscle relaxant. Does fuck all, so I just keep a stash for opiate wd days.

If you don't have an addictive personality & find yourself taking ever escalating doses, I wouldn't be worried about the horror benzo stories lurking around.

Rtp

 

[Kdem]

Sertraline isn't as safe as many people think. If you take it for years and try to come off suddenly you are at a high risk for a withdrawal syndrome. aka discontinuation syndrome

Diazepam ? You may be able to take it once a week without problems. Long term, that half life of diazepam and its main metabolite desmethyldiazepam can cause problems. It's going to be in your body 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Maybe twice a week, if you are lucky.

If you take it short term to take the edge off with sertraline it's a different matter altogether.

 

[dez79]

I find oxazepam say 20mg to be far more effective for anxiety and with proven less addictive nature and best of all easier on liver

 

[Freaksh0w]

That 5 days on, 2 days off deal MAY work for someone also somewhat new to the benzo world... ONE time. But if you start going 5 on, 2 off, 5 on, 2 off, 5 on, etc. etc., you won't be wanting to wait those 2 days due to feeling so damn terrible. 3-4 years into my drug abusing life story, I could take 25mg of xanax at once, and sometimes end up eating another 40 more through the day... while blacked out. It's not like I could stop myself, I have no recollection.

I didn't withdraw from benzos back then. I did them in massive quantities and normally not over 3 days in a row. (Massive quantities are not safe, just making a point). So, at the same time, as time went by, this was affecting my partner. She'd withdraw terribly from the benzos after a 3 day binge @ 100mg or so. I'm not even lying. Many times. She didn't so much at first, but it just took repetitiveness and the love for a particular feeling.

Couple or three years back, doctor prescribed me 3x 2mg klonopins a day. I got taken back off them, due to some new law, about 1.5-2 months later. I took them as prescribed because I totally did not want to run out. I withdrew from just that amount for 4 weeks. 2 weeks pretty strongly, 3 weeks of sweating, and 4 weeks of cold chills and just knowing something wasn't right mentally.

I guess all I'm trying to warn you about is these drugs aren't toys and we can't really control them. We might control a dose. But not many doses. Our body doesn't agree with our first intentions after time.

So, my opinion on this... you MIGHT be able to take a bit for 2 days and wait 7-10 with no unpleasant side effects. But the more days in a row you take it, and the less days in between that you don't take any, the sooner the addiction/WD's will hit ya. I would just try to keep it under once a week and only as needed. But, hey, if someone told me this stuff back then, I would have thought "aww, shut up, I've got it under control".

 

[AA357]

Sounds like a slippery slope. I wouldn't take diazepam more than 3x per week personally.

FYI old-school downers like GHB and Soma are a lot less physically addictive than benzos. You can take GHB every day for years and as long as you're not constantly redosing or taking massive amounts of it; you won't become dependent on it. I'm starting to think the same is true of Soma.

 

[deos68]

I've taken Diaz for roughly fifteen yrs on & off. I don't find it a seductive drug at all & find I can be with or without it.

Initially I was prescribed 5mg 3x daily, for anxiety & OCD,- but as time went on obviously tolerance builds, so feeling no benefit I'd often just cease taking it myself.

Now I'm meant to take 2mgs twice daily as a muscle relaxant. Does fuck all, so I just keep a stash for opiate wd days.

If you don't have an addictive personality & find yourself taking ever escalating doses, I wouldn't be worried about the horror benzo stories lurking around.

Rtp

i personally think the term "addictive personality" a bunch of bs
im a alcoholic but i dont abuse my benzo's am i one of the lucky ones? i actually prefer a nice cold brew or glass of wine over a benzo any day
i know my limits and i know the consequences if i push my luck to far
addiction is nothing but a mind game which most usually lose
guess i saw how bad withdrawals can get from benzo abuse first hand when i went into a detox center
i was in there for alcohol but mixed in with people detoxing from prescription pill abuse not a pretty sight constant screaming people convulsing
the exp alone should have kept me from even touching a benzo but i legitimate need them
but the same exp scared me enough to never think about abusing benzo or taking more than i should

 

[OntarioGuy]

^^^^ You do know that alcohol withdrawal is extremely similar to benzo withdrawal right? And that alcoholics are given benzos to reduce or prevent life threatening withdrawal as they are somewhat cross tolerant...im guessing you do as it sounds like you have withdrawled from both.... I think it sucks because ive seen ppl avoid alcohol wd totally with high dose benzodiazepines,but alcohol doesn't help benzo withdrawal at all,even makes it worse, as it targets the GABAb receptor more so then GABAa like benzos....anyway

To the original question to avoid diazepam dependence I'd think ud have to avoid using long term. Due to its long half-life using diazepam 2-3 days a week for 60ish or so days would most likely result in a physical dependence.

Benzos do take longer to become dependent on than opioids.I got physically hooked on opioids after about 15 days straight of abusing high dose oxycodone where my first benzo habit took about 2-3 months of daily alprazolam and temazepam abuse...I kicked that habit for a couple years and when I started using Xanax an clonazepam again my addiction was reestablished after about 20-30 days.and I'd been 3 years clean

 

[Screaming_Skull]

I use to eat these ALL the time in Highschool...On the weekends it would be 60mg a night saturaday and sunday if no booze was around. If booze was around(mostly red wine) I would take 40mg with two glasses of wine. Would usually take some one night durning the week to. I never developed a physical addciction but because of the long half life things are a little hazy and I was alway really relaxed still the next few days after my 60mg doses....

 

[deos68]

^^^^ You do know that alcohol withdrawal is extremely similar to benzo withdrawal right? And that alcoholics are given benzos to reduce or prevent life threatening withdrawal as they are somewhat cross tolerant...im guessing you do as it sounds like you have withdrawled from both.... I think it sucks because ive seen ppl avoid alcohol wd totally with high dose benzodiazepines,but alcohol doesn't help benzo withdrawal at all,even makes it worse, as it targets the GABAb receptor more so then GABAa like benzos....anyway

To the original question to avoid diazepam dependence I'd think ud have to avoid using long term. Due to its long half-life using diazepam 2-3 days a week for 60ish or so days would most likely result in a physical dependence.

Benzos do take longer to become dependent on than opioids.I got physically hooked on opioids after about 15 days straight of abusing high dose oxycodone where my first benzo habit took about 2-3 months of daily alprazolam and temazepam abuse...I kicked that habit for a couple years and when I started using Xanax an clonazepam again my addiction was reestablished after about 20-30 days.and I'd been 3 years clean

never said anything about withdrawal nor is the op going though it either and yes i understand
the op is asking what can be done to avoid dependency
i might read all this wrong but i'm a breathing eating shitting proof that taking benzo's is a responsible manner you can be on them for a very long time
i dont have any dependency, nor am i going through withdrawal
have used valium and xanax never together but for 2 very different scenarios going on 6 months already well in a few days
never an urge to increase dosage neither
maybe i got super lucky i need a very tiny amount of any benzo get relief ?
in the end it really is will power just my $0.02
i went from drinking 8 to 10 beers nightly
i knew it was over kill drinking that much so ive gone down to 2 maybe 3 beers but thats pushing it all on my own i havent quit because i simply dont want to

 

[Freaksh0w]

But, while addiction is heavily in the mind, benzos, and other drugs, still cause physical withdrawal symptoms, which is physical addiction. I'm really not trying to sound like a smart ass, but what do you think would happen if you were to cold turkey lose your valium/xanax you take daily? Maybe you're different and wouldn't get any withdrawal. Maybe you just haven't been without, yet. I'm just trying to say that all the will power in the world won't stop a seizure.

 

[OntarioGuy]

never said anything about withdrawal nor is the op going though it either and yes i understand
the op is asking what can be done to avoid dependency
i might read all this wrong but i'm a breathing eating shitting proof that taking benzo's is a responsible manner you can be on them for a very long time
i dont have any dependency, nor am i going through withdrawal
have used valium and xanax never together but for 2 very different scenarios going on 6 months already well in a few days
never an urge to increase dosage neither
maybe i got super lucky i need a very tiny amount of any benzo get relief ?
in the end it really is will power just my $0.02
i went from drinking 8 to 10 beers nightly
i knew it was over kill drinking that much so ive gone down to 2 maybe 3 beers but thats pushing it all on my own i havent quit because i simply dont want to

Like Freak said, have u tried abstaining for 5 days or so? I guarantee after six months of dosing Xanax and Valium,even in reasonable therapeutic doses and on a controlled regimen,plus 8+ beer a night, you would experience physical withdrawal after several days without. If you have skipped days and felt no sickness it was likely because your body has stored up diazepam and its metabolites which stick around forever.

 

[dez79]

Sounds like a slippery slope. I wouldn't take diazepam more than 3x per week personally.

FYI old-school downers like GHB and Soma are a lot less physically addictive than benzos. You can take GHB every day for years and as long as you're not constantly redosing or taking massive amounts of it; you won't become dependent on it. I'm starting to think the same is true of Soma.

the problem with GHB is its highly illegal diazepam won't get u locked up

 

[deos68]

Like Freak said, have u tried abstaining for 5 days or so? I guarantee after six months of dosing Xanax and Valium,even in reasonable therapeutic doses and on a controlled regimen,plus 8+ beer a night, you would experience physical withdrawal after several days without. If you have skipped days and felt no sickness it was likely because your body has stored up diazepam and its metabolites which stick around forever.

you fail to fully understand what i have said
i have gone up to 2 weeks without taking any benzos because most often than not i dont need to take anything because i rather face anxiety head on than run from it
im not longer having 8+ beers i came down to 2 maybe 3 with will power
as you fail to understand what i am saying i will no longer respond good day
this post is about the op but lets not try to give the op false information

 

[AA357]

the problem with GHB is its highly illegal diazepam won't get u locked up

I don't know about where you live but here in the UK they are both Class C drugs (the lowest). Possession without a prescription is illegal, but neither will get you locked up if it's for personal use.
The vast majority of popular recreational drugs are either Class A (the highest) or Class B. GHB is actually "less illegal" than cannabis over here.

 

[5StarSquatHotel]

Considering it takes a MONTH to clear a single dose from your system I would say this is not really possible, it is a lipid and stacks up in your system. You would be better off switching to a much shorting acting benzo and use only as needed.