Opioids Attention all opiate addicts. Freedom lies within. A detox recipe that works. Really.

[Doody OD]

it isnt based on my personal opinion at all, the staff at a residential rehab i was at had read an article stating that there is a very poor success rate when it comes to clinical treatment, ill be fucking glad to look it up or call my former counselor for the article. Try this: go into a long term rehab, and see how many people get kicked out, how many people relapse, or how many people are faking there asses off just to get out of clinical treatment. you will be shocked and probably saddened at how many people get unsuccessfully discharged from long term tretment. OR how about this, go to outpatient drug counseling, and see how many people are failing drug tests, skipping groups, rescheduling one on one appts to avoid a piss test, and see how many people just drop out of the program. clinical treatment has a huge problem: majority of the people in it clearly just dont want to fucking be clean, and its sad how unsucessful these programs are, i been thru it myself, and seen it myself, which obviously reports have been written and articles have been popping up. But when you go into an AA/NA meeting (which is completely voluntary) you will see such a beautiful vibe in the room, and all the positive energy. ill let you know straight up if this is my opinion, as in ALL MY OTHER THREADS IF YOU HAVENT NOTICED I ALWAYS STATE "IMO" IN MY OPINION, OR IME "IN MY EXPERIENCE" go ahead, i do it in many many threads, not this one however. i will find documentation stating clinical treatment has been at a huge decline in success rates. or how about this go look it up for yourself since your so positive about me being wrong. lets not ignore the issue clinical treatment has done a poor job in keeping people sober, sure it has kept many sober, but when you add up all the successfulls and unsuccessfuls, it tends to weigh down on unsucessful, and that is a FACT.

I'm guessing you went to a 12 step treatment facility? It sounds to me that it still is a personal opinion, the personal opinion of the staff at the rehab facility.

I would love to see the paper you are referring to, if you can get a link it would be great, however, I'm not asking you to especially contact your old counsellor.

I know loads of treatment professions from all type of different trainings, who would not agree with that, but again what I'm stating is just opinion.

Now with saying that I actually have a lot of time for 12 step treatment, it has helped so many people world wide, but it is very important to note that it is only one form of treatment that works well for those who tolerate it, very well indeed. However, it is not a suitable treatment format for many people and if it is forced upon people who are not suited to it; well it can be fucking dangerous.

You talk about people failing in clinical treatment and that when you go to a fellowship meeting you get a beautiful vibe, in some cases maybe. However, I have seen many people drop out of fellowships for similar reasons to people dropping out of treatment.



Sadly, it has been pushed upon many people over the years, however, here it is important to note that it is not the programme forcing itself on unsuitable people, it is badly trained treatment professionals, or other professional.


The consensus of Project Match was that when people enter treatment a third get better, a third stay the same and a third get worse. However, for things like this definitions need to be soild, what is treatment? What does getting better mean? How does we measure that? However, I'm going off topic here.

My point was that 12 step treatment [here I'm limiting that to fellowship meeting and the work that develops from that I do not include therapeutic techniques such "12 step facilitation"] generally receives poor outcomes in the treatment literature. However, I think it is only fair to acknowledge that fellowships for many reasons are difficult to research thoroughly and I'm not sure if it is fair to compare them to clinic treatments. Clinical treatments are profession interventions, fellowship meetings are part of a personal programme. Can we compare the two of them? If we can then surely we should compare fellowships to different treatment modalities individually, as there is certainly no one clear treatment format, that we can compare it to.

I hope the above makes some sense.

 

[opiatekrzy]

im sorry everyone for taking everything offense, it was totally unacceptable of me, forgive me please, i was on adderall and coming down, and been up 2 days and i got to the point where i would get emotional over anything in a good or bad way. Me myself, NA and the 12 steps is too much work for me physically, and i just cant get in touch spirutally with a higher power, of even focus to read the big book, or do the steps, or havng to call a sponser everyday feeling obligated. i was just speaking from all the success i seen it do to people. i just got upset over the one post that was totally anti-AA/NA, and basically summarizing it like its a cult or something, which its not at all. for someone who has decades of experience with AA/NA, sounds like they failed at sobreity choosing that method. i just mentioned as good recipe "i thought" would be 12 steps, and temp. medication for opiate dependency, and then i get slammed. so again everyone i aplogize for being an asshole, thats not like me. i mean if yall really want to ill ask to get this article faxed to me..but anyway...have a nice weekend every1

 

[Doody OD]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey Mate, I don't think you need to apologise, don't be taking the thread that seriously. It is a discussion some people agree some don't we all have opinions you don't have to apologise for having one.

We all get defensive about things we have invested a lot of psychological energy in, and it can be difficult for us to see other ways of doing the same thing.

However, drug treatment is a very complex area, it can be a fascinating area full of questions, paradoxes and various ideologies. The thing for me, is to try avoid fundamentalist, seeing one way as the only way and to be fair fellowships get blamed on this frequently. However, I think such fundamentalism stems from individual rather than the fellowships themselves.

Anyway, that is my way of saying fair play for having the balls to apologise but I'm not sure if you need to.

 

[freud]

I'm four months off my sub treatment for fent, and have been heavily into AA, and therapy. I would say therapy has done the best for myself personally, while AA helps to realize you're not alone. Though my main issues with AA are many: too many 'old-timers' that are using the programme as a crutch to life (think 20-30 yrs sober), too many people that use AA AS a religion, and my main gripe that there are no real peer group discussion about addiction as it applies to daily life other than past abuse 'dick sizing', and platitudes like 'keep coming back...'.
AA seems to be inflexible on how life is really lived, and that is the main problem. If you can abide by the 'rules', you will do fine. If, like me, you can smoke or have a glass of wine every so often, you question the entire process.

edit: also, some of the steps they want you to do should be done with a proper psychologist/therapist. not Mary, Moe or Jack.

TL;DR I go to keep mindful of the entire process of maintaining a life without opiates, but find real world application, as AA stipulates, a farce.

 

[Tommyboy]

I think that opiatekrzy's argument that "AA/NA is the best because most people that are going to these meetings are voluntarily attending whereas most people going to inpatient and outpatient treatment centers are mandated by courts" is flawed because then you would have to compare the success rate of people voluntarily going to AA/NA and inpatient/outpatient rehab facilities vs the people that are mandated to go to AA/NA (yes, I have heard of people mandated to go to AA/NA and there are people that bring with them sign in sheets to the meetings by me now) or inpatient/outpatient rehabs.

Having said that, I agree that most people that attend either inpatient or outpatient rehabs do so involuntarily so they have a low success rate among that group of people, so naturally if most people bring themselves to AA/NA voluntarily then I would think that they are going to be more likely to stay clean. But if just as many people were court mandated to go to AA/NA then it would have an even lower success rate then it already has.

Lastly, most inpatient rehab facilities are oriented around the 12 steps of AA/NA so I don't know how you can say that one works better than the other when one has incorporated the other into it.

 

[oldfashndthebaine]

Although aware of quinidine's inhibition properties, i wish i had access to this. Quinine I have dealt with but soon realized it was a weak inhibitor at best. Quinine's action regarding PgP is more of a substrate, however may inhibit CYP P450 3A4 , allowing for enhanced levels. ED is relatively questionable while some studies say 24mg and some People have found in upwards of 60+mg. LD50 is a little more straight forward.
I must take a moment here to emphasize I am in no way stating What I have said is the gold standard, only that it has worked for me.
The whole reason I started searching for an alternate route other than Methadone or buprenorphine /naloxone concoctions to try to get clean is that I've asked for help with my problem several times only to be turned away either due to cost or insurance Restrictions.

 

[shimazu]

seems like it would be easier to taper down with subs over the course of a week or two and then just quitting subs cold turkey

at least simpler, just don't trust yourself to dose the subs on your own

I mean, I did, but I trust myself lol

 

[opiatekrzy]

idk, as far as NA/AA, use what works for you in those rooms, and leave the rest on the floor, as long as it helps u spiritually get back in touch to who u really r as a person, and helps u with ur shortcoming, then so what if a few strict rules u break, like not having a sponser, or having a glass of wine every now and then, all i know is NA helps me feel this natural high when im in the meetings, and it helps me bring the real "mike" back, but as an addict, a few hours after the meeting, i go back to feeling like my shit self, which leads me to believing we need to use NA as a substitute to getting high, which isnt much help itself, cuz too much NA can be a strain and obligation...in moderation NA has great success, not just putting the drug down, but getting ur real self back, whatever your real self is...i personally dont know what normal is, cuz i never felt normal my whole life, even when i was a little boy...im still mentally lost..but everyday im trying, whether i still abuse my adderall and benzos, and stay on suboxone daily. im still growing wiser everyday and learning more that i dont have to follow society's expectations to feel guilt free...all i want is to be free spirited and in touch with myself spiritually. i understand using amphetamines and even benzos will prevent me..i have ADHD , so excuse me from jumping all over the place.

 

[Stato]

I think he wrote this thread on meth(amphet) and not opiates.

Sorry mate! haha, couldn't help but have a little dig x.

I'm a daily methadone user (legally, course, ) so i know exactly what you went thru and I even used to abuse poppy seed juice prior to abusing oxy and harder drugs. a 10 buck note at coles and I was pretty much high for the day on morph/cod from the poppy's. I used to mix it with like.. up to 1grm of cod filtered, and drink up to 800mg of rikodeine (DHC). Prior to my addiction.

ATM I'm just enjoying staying sober and not high, even if i'm on a dose of methadone that would kill most people who dont touch drugs. (80mg).

Good work, stay off the opiates mate.

 

[Johnnywas]

Thanks for your first post Bomb319. This is very helpful as its similar to what I am trying to do, only I am not comfortable with taking such a high dose of the lope. I have been planning to taper the PST lower, then jump off onto 12 mg of the lope, with some otc codeine on top and some other supplements

I have come down from 1500gram PST daily to 200gram daily which was basically painless for me. However when I went down to 160g for a week I just never stabilized, yet at 200g I feel mildly high. Hence I am interested is this why you choose to jump off at 200g? I see a lot of threads about people tapering down, but no one seems to offer any information on tapering the last approx 20% of the original dosage, the end part. Is it not possible for most people to continue the taper to zero? Do the side effects become progressively worse at low dosage, kind of like a snowball coming down a mountain, or do you think it will be easy enough for me to say stay at 200g for a while, then continue to taper down lower without too much pain?

 

[opiumprincess]

I did a similar withdraw a few weeks ago with the tea and some kratom, I did not have to take the Lope this time, and only had very mild symptoms. I was coming off a year of suboxone. I enjoyed the tea a little too much though and ordered pounds in bulk...however...I just drank some today for the first time since. I feel like it stays in your system much longer than any other opiates...it is not as intense...mild and clean experience. Hoping I don't feel the need to keep using it. I have been an addict off and on for 16 years, and I am only 31. Sad stuff, I do not recommend this to anyone who is not detoxing. Do not use this for fun, it is just as addicting! Great advice for detox though, had a much smoother and tolerable ride. Note that I have only ever drank the tea twice...once during detox...and once today. Hope this helps some people wishing to get clean.

 

[deidara]

I think that teaching drug addicts that they have some sort of magical diminished responsibility because they're addicts is dangerous and a form of slave morality (in a Nietzschean sense). NA/AA teaches you to 'be' guilty (profess/accept your guilt on an intellectual level) while giving you permission to not 'feel' guilty (actually accept, experience and transcend your guilt on an emotional level)...the NA model (based on Christian doctrine) preaches a psychological model that equates addiction with Christian concepts of 'original sin'- humans do not commit sins, they're sinners. This is fundamentally life-denying and encourages the worst sort of fatalistic thinking- particularly during relapses.

agree 100%. I got sent to treatment the first time when I was 17, and was introduced to NA there. I wasn't even an addict at the time (although I was dabbling in heroin, I didn't use it everyday, also had never used a needle). They succeeded in making me believe that the 12 steps were the only way I was gonna stay clean, even though I probably needed therapy. My young brain just absorbed everything anyone told me and went along with it, because NA typically tells the addict that their thinking is 'wrong' and that they need to do what other people say. I didn't even question it. I stayed clean from everything for 3 years, when I was 20 I relapsed. I had never shot up before and the first day of my relapse I was shooting heroin. I turned into a 'real addict' and used like that for about a year. I kept going to meetings during my relapse, but I just couldn't stay clean. Now I'm on subs and have been off dope for a couple months. 12 step programs don't agree with maintenance drugs, (I too thought like that the 3 years I was clean) but since addiction is a medical disease, why shouldn't it have a medical solution? Bupe has been the only thing that I've been able to stay clean on, but the people of NA still consider me a 'using addict'. 12 step programs tend to believe that if someones works the program, they can reap the benefits, but some people have their own ideas/morals that don't fit into the 12 step philosophy. Yes, 12 step programs have helped millions of people, but there are millions more they haven't helped. Addiction is a disease that has many facets and every addict is different, so a one size fits all approach obviously isn't going to work for everyone. Also, a study by NIDA (National Institute on Drug Abuse) concluded at 6 out of 10 addicts have dual diagnosis, and since 12 step programs tend to not agree with prescription meds, this can cause an addict who needs to be medicated for another issue that was contributing to their addiction left unmedicated, and will have a higher chance of relapse. If an addict is on medication, they are made to feel guilty and people in the program tell them they aren't 'really clean'. The rooms are also very cliquey, it doesn't seem like this from the outside, but people who have been in the progam for a long time are set in their group of friends and don't really care about new people, though sometimes they give the appearance to. I know the 12 steps work for a lot of people, but that small percentage of people who stay clean tend to become arrogant in the sense that they think the 12 steps are THE ONLY way, and that other methods of approaching addiction don't work. I know because I was one of those people during the 3 years I was a part of the fellowship. But during those 3 years even though I worked steps and took all the suggestions, I still wanted to use almost everyday. Now that I'm on a legit medication to combat my addiction, I rarely find myself daydreaming about a heroin rush like I used to.

 

[laCster]

AA/NA is such a cult. i was so depressed going to their meetings, having them tell me im a complete retard, that i cant use my "stinkin thinking" because im a no good addict. they put me down and tell me that i am a piece of shit, that i hvve to rely on other people to "think" for me like i am some type of puppet. have you ever spoken to an AA/NA member? they are soooo addicted to their meetings it isnt even funny, they freak out if they miss one like they are about to go into WD or some shit. they are dependent on AA/NA for their happiness. oh wait, and then when i try to voice my opinion, even my opinion is wrong, "dont criticize the program, the program doesnt fail people, the people fail the program." also, in order to be a good member, you have to go out and recruit other people like you are some missionary in south amaerica.


http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a0.html


suboxone is the only thing that has ever worked for me, and it will continue to work for me until i come to the point in life where i simply dont want ANY drugs.

 

[Herpe The Clown]

AA/NA just made me fucking miserable, I had to go to meetings everyday and get a sponsor in order to stay at the halfway house I was in, The steps were completely useless to me, I don't believe in a higher power and I refuse to believe I'm powerless over my addiction. Ever since I stopped that whole nonsense I've been a MUCH happier person

 

[deidara]

^^ I completely agree. I used to be like that when I was clean for 3 years, I was dependent on meetings/my sponsor. I lived in a state of constant fear/worry because I didn't believe that 'god' will take care of everything, and that everything's gonna work out like it should. That's a huge thing of NA, and I'm sorry but I just don't fucking buy into that. The program makes people think that they have absolutely no control, they can't change their lives, only god can. I think that's just an excuse for people to pretend to be content with their current situation and never try to better themselves. I refuse to believe I am powerless, that's the same thing as giving up. And everybody gave up all the time, the world would be a very dull place. I constantly got critisized by people "your not writing on your step enough" "you need to pray more" and told what to do for everything. I got tired of it after a while because I felt like it was molding my personality and brainwashing me. I like being my own person and being self-reliant much better.

 

[RTrain]

I'd rather just taper off suboxone. It is virtually pain free to do and much easier to control the taper than with PST, since the doses are standardized. In 1-1/2 month you can easily be clean, many do it in less time and experience very minimal discomfort. Just have to get down to .1 mg(using a liquid taper method) and below and you are all set, cutting dose to 75% the former every 3-4 days. Its a cake walk if you can keep your stabilizing dose through the acute w/d of your DOC to 4-6 mgs.

 

[RTrain]

^^ I completely agree. I used to be like that when I was clean for 3 years, I was dependent on meetings/my sponsor. I lived in a state of constant fear/worry because I didn't believe that 'god' will take care of everything, and that everything's gonna work out like it should. That's a huge thing of NA, and I'm sorry but I just don't fucking buy into that. The program makes people think that they have absolutely no control, they can't change their lives, only god can. I think that's just an excuse for people to pretend to be content with their current situation and never try to better themselves. I refuse to believe I am powerless, that's the same thing as giving up. And everybody gave up all the time, the world would be a very dull place. I constantly got critisized by people "your not writing on your step enough" "you need to pray more" and told what to do for everything. I got tired of it after a while because I felt like it was molding my personality and brainwashing me. I like being my own person and being self-reliant much better.

This is exactly the reason why I would never get involved in AA/NA, its the higher than thous who have let "recovery" become their lives. Shouldn't your plan be to recover and then move on, not dwell on the fact that you were addicted. I mean I am atheist too, so the God thing is completely lost on me. But even if you take out the religious aspect of it all there is still this dedication to the whole thing that I just don't understand. I could see popping in once and a while to remind yourself why you got clean by listening to stories and such. But at the same time how do you turn your attention away from using when you are constantly reminding yourself you were an addict by going to meetings and fraternizing with others who shared your problem?

 

[Mass08]

I like my NA meetings, I don't go to them daily but I have a lot of friends in the program so it is nice. As far as a fullproof detox the only ones that have worked for me are at actual professional medical detoxes. I get my methadone and just chill for the rest of the day. Home detoxes never work for me because I always end up getting high whenever I please. Good post though.

 

[opiatekrzy]

even when i try to detox at home, with detox meds, i end up abusing the detox meds (taking much more methadone then i should be)----------(taking suboxone as i please, selling them to buy dope, etc..)

 

[tokenname]

This is exactly the reason why I would never get involved in AA/NA, its the higher than thous who have let "recovery" become their lives. Shouldn't your plan be to recover and then move on, not dwell on the fact that you were addicted. I mean I am atheist too, so the God thing is completely lost on me. But even if you take out the religious aspect of it all there is still this dedication to the whole thing that I just don't understand. I could see popping in once and a while to remind yourself why you got clean by listening to stories and such. But at the same time how do you turn your attention away from using when you are constantly reminding yourself you were an addict by going to meetings and fraternizing with others who shared your problem?

it's the end result that matters.
aa/na never has/never will work for me..
but i know people who've found what they needed just by feeling part of an understanding community.
loneliness never helped anyone stay sober...
and just becoming too comfortable in sobriety can have devastating affects for some.
there's no denying it has helped people
life's such a bitch anyway..anytime someone finds the help they need..
who cares where it comes from?