Asian ethnicity and MDMA tolerance?

spag007

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Hi all,

I have excellent quality molly crystals at my disposal (tried, and all I can say is woah...). Very smooth roll, yet hard roll, very little after effects.

My Asian friend wants to try it out for the first time, which I found was neat. However, I wonder if the "Asian flush" syndrome, or, to put it simply, the natural intolerance to alcohol that Asians have due to the lack of the proper enzymes in their liver, would change the effect of MDMA, possibly making it stronger.

I have searched around and found this:
"The east and south–east regions of Asia home to about one-third of the global population, have one of the most strongly established markets for ATS in the world, primarily for methamphetamine (UNODC, 2011). This is of relevance since the CYP2D6*10 allelic variant, which encodes a hypofunctional enzyme, is carried by approximately 75% of the Asian population. An in vitro study comparing catalytically the CYP2D6*10 allelic variant vs. CYP2D6*1 (wild type), which is more prevalent in Caucasians, showed that the ratios of intrinsic clearance (Vmax/Km) of *1 to *10 for MDMA O-demethylenation was 123, and for methamphetamine 67, for the p-hydroxylation 157 of the N-demethylation (Ramamoorthy et al., 2001). This almost 100-fold difference in intrinsic clearance for both drugs, depending on the allelic variant considered, is of significance in the interpretation of clinical data. Findings observed in Caucasian populations with respect to the impact of CYP2D6 polymorphism on drug effects are not always reproduced in Asian ones. This lack of reproducibility is due to the distribution of extreme phenotypes (UM and PM) in these populations. Globally, however, the rate of metabolic disposition of CYP2D6 substrates is slower in Asians" (source: http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fgene.2012.00235/full) So, could someone with the proper knowledge of biology please translate this into understandable English?

If the way Asians metabolize MDMA is different from Caucasians, what approximate ratio should I use (I have a precise scale) to make her doses vs mine? I usually put around 120mg/dose for me (although, with this particular batch, it feels like at least 200mg). I'm a 165lbs, 5 foot 11 white guy, she's the exact same weight and same height as I am.

Are there any Asians here on Bluelight that could please tell me about their experience?

Thank you all :)!
 

Black

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the paper you linked to said:
Concerning MDMA, due to CYP2D6 autoinhibition and, therefore, the phenomenon of phenocopying towards the PM phenotype, effects experienced by EM subjects (*1/*1, n = 6, and *1/*4 n = 3) after two consecutive doses of the drug (Farré et al., 2004; de la Torre et al., 2005) are similar to those of PM ones (*4/*4).
so basically for smaller doses (<100mg) you'd definitely have more effect from the same amount and the larger the dose is the less difference is between people with different CYP2D6 variants. of course we can't tell you exact figures; we neither know her genotype nor her individual lightweight-/hardheadedness nor is the available data on the differences between genotypes solid enough to justify and kind of calculations.

also keep in mind that women typically need smaller doses than men.

so if you stuff is reasonably close to pure (when you take 120mg and it feels like "200mg" to you, we're probably not far off ;) ), then i'd definitely give her something below 100mg. my guess for a good dose would be something like 70-80mg. considering it's a first time too, 70mg should probably be enough.
 

luxray

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I think 70 could be to low, it's under 1 mg/kg. It would be a shame if she didn't get the full experience the first time.

1.5 mg/kg tends to be a good amount for most people the first time.
So I would dose at least 100 mg (1.3 mg/kg), or at least have a small booster ready if needed.
 

JWills20

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I agree with Black. For females a dose under 100mg is usually enough to get the full experience. I knew a girl who took 90mg for her first time and she was blasted. Even had an uncomfortable come-up. She's also white english so I'd imagine an Asian girl would need even less considering that A) Asians are a very small population. B) Females are prone to be hit harder with MDMA and are generally smaller than males. I'd even advise a dosage of anywhere from 70-80mg. You can always take more but you can't take less.
 

luxray

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A) Asians are a very small population. B) Females are prone to be hit harder with MDMA and are generally smaller than males. I'd even advise a dosage of anywhere from 70-80mg. You can always take more but you can't take less.
Females tends to hit harder mostly cause their usually smaller.

There really is no point in speaking of dosage with out taking weight into consideration.

1-2 mg/kg is the recommended dosage for people without tolerance. 1.5 tends to be good for most people. Going under 1 mg/kg is not a good idea, over 2 will most likely give unpleasant side effects.

"I'm a 165lbs, 5 foot 11 white guy, she's the exact same weight and same height as I am."
This is not a tiny girl, this is a very tall girl, with a weight suiting her height.

If you go for 1mg/kg (approx 75mg for her) I would have a booster ready to take if it's not enough. Taking too small of a dose could be really unpleasant, so it's important to tell her that in advance.

I know a girl who doesn't need more then 60 mg to roll, but she also weighs 40 kg... so talking about what amount people are taking, without mentioning their weight doesn't really tell much...
 

Black

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Females tends to hit harder mostly cause their usually smaller.

There really is no point in speaking of dosage with out taking weight into consideration.

1-2 mg/kg is the recommended dosage for people without tolerance. 1.5 tends to be good for most people. Going under 1 mg/kg is not a good idea, over 2 will most likely give unpleasant side effects.

"I'm a 165lbs, 5 foot 11 white guy, she's the exact same weight and same height as I am."
This is not a tiny girl, this is a very tall girl, with a weight suiting her height.

If you go for 1mg/kg (approx 75mg for her) I would have a booster ready to take if it's not enough. Taking too small of a dose could be really unpleasant, so it's important to tell her that in advance.

I know a girl who doesn't need more then 60 mg to roll, but she also weighs 40 kg... so talking about what amount people are taking, without mentioning their weight doesn't really tell much...
the first time you always need less than with subsequent uses. my first time was the most intense roll i've had from an initial dose of 70mg (1mg/kg). 70mg just didn't cut it anymore afterwards. so now i take around 110mg for a nice experience (with the same weight), and that's with no tolerance (rolling at most once a year or so).

and females also need less than males on a mg/kg basis. there's even a paragraph in our directory about that.

still your recommendation with 75mg and a booster on hand (who hasn't got a booster ready when they take mdma anyway? the roll is always too short without boosters...) is something i can totallly agree with.
 

luxray

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the first time you always need less than with subsequent uses. my first time was the most intense roll i've had from an initial dose of 70mg (1mg/kg). 70mg just didn't cut it anymore afterwards. so now i take around 110mg for a nice experience (with the same weight), and that's with no tolerance (rolling at most once a year or so).

and females also need less than males on a mg/kg basis. there's even a paragraph in our directory about that.

still your recommendation with 75mg and a booster on hand (who hasn't got a booster ready when they take mdma anyway? the roll is always too short without boosters...) is something i can totallly agree with.
I agree there also is a difference, that's why I said mostly :) The weight still is the most important factor (do to large variations in body weight), and many people seem to forget it. I'm sorry if I came off harsh, that wasn't my intention.

The reason I'm a little bit cautious when it comes to recommending a low as possible dose for first timers, is that I've heard so many first timers who has taken to small of a dose, and being stuck in the unpleasant "come up"-phase. In stead of taking more, they get scared, thinking they are sick, that their body isn't handling it, and so on. Resulting in them not daring taking more, and eventually ending up having a bad night.

There is no problem starting low - but you got to recognize the signs and take more if you get stuck in the come up. :)


Side note, I don't take boosters if I'm rolling at home - it doesn't last that short for me, around 4 hours. I only take boosters for long events.
 
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spag007

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Thanks for all of your input guys, but unfortunately, most of you aren't really answering the question: should I take the fact that she is ASIAN into consideration, like with alcohol? Would an Asian girl that's the same weight, same height as a white girl react similarly to a same dose?
 

gonzohst

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Thanks for all of your input guys, but unfortunately, most of you aren't really answering the question: should I take the fact that she is ASIAN into consideration, like with alcohol? Would an Asian girl that's the same weight, same height as a white girl react similarly to a same dose?
I would not take the fact that she is asian into account, alcohol and MDMA are very different and I can't see why the strange alcohol asian problem would also affect MDMA
 

spag007

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True, they are different in effect, but they are both metabolised by hepatic enzymes, and Asians are known to be missing some of those enzymes when compared to caucasians.
 

Black

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True, they are different in effect, but they are both metabolised by hepatic enzymes, and Asians are known to be missing some of those enzymes when compared to caucasians.
they are different enzymes and it's that mdma would be more potent rather than being unpleasant altogether as is the case with alcohol. CYP2D6 deficiency isn't as prevalent in asian people as ADH deficiency and mdma does inhibit its own metabolism via that enzyme anyway. so, if she has this variant, there is going to be a difference with small doses, a little difference with medium doses and almost no difference at higher doses. that's why i recommended a dose that's below the usual 1-1.5mg/kg

@luxray
no worries, and i agree :)
4 hours... i'm envious (needing one booster for that duration) ;)
 

spag007

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they are different enzymes and it's that mdma would be more potent rather than being unpleasant altogether as is the case with alcohol. CYP2D6 deficiency isn't as prevalent in asian people as ADH deficiency and mdma does inhibit its own metabolism via that enzyme anyway. so, if she has this variant, there is going to be a difference with small doses, a little difference with medium doses and almost no difference at higher doses. that's why i recommended a dose that's below the usual 1-1.5mg/kg
Thank you very much, that was the answer I was looking for :)!
 
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