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animal testing

exactly polymath!!

foreigner, every one of those questions can be given a rough answer in a few sentences. some of them, i.e. do you diagnose breast cancer personally?, are yes or no questions. regarding biomarkers, most have codes so again it's a one word answer.

every one of those questions, apart from the first, asks what you do, and therefore cannot be answered by research, only by yourself. it took me years to learn the skills i have now, but i can explain what i am doing to my team, i'm the only data analyst, the rest are biologists, its not difficult. so please answer them, i'm genuinely interested and open to changing my mind. i'm not asking to shoot you down.

i am sorry the sentence you bolded came across as patronising. as it stands, i don't believe you, because you are giving me no reason to. i would dearly like to, as i don't want people to suffer unnecessarily, and it seems that you have a way to. the burden of proof for your claims falls to you.

the reason i don't believe you is because i know for a fact that herbal preparations are not used in state of the art cancer treatment. i also know for a fact that researchers working on state of the art cancer treatment are open minded and would use herbs if there was evidence that they were more effective than current therapies. therefore, either there is no such evidence or they are not aware of the evidence. as you apparently have this evidence i don't understand why you wouldn't want to use it to substantiate your claims and save lives beyond those of your patients.

On the one hand you ask me for answers and on the other hand you say you don't believe me, so that seems like a losing proposition from where I stand.

It's cool if you don't believe in traditional medical systems. I know they work. Why? I am licensed in my province to practice them, I work in a clinic, and I've effectively cured people of various diseases over the years. People who like to talk shit about holistic medicine usually don't know very much about it.

TL;DR. Traditional medicine isn't really medicine, its guesswork. Animal testing is sometimes okay but rarely.

Depends which system you're talking about, and which disease is being treated. Your wide sweeping generalizations show a deep level of ignorance.

A lot of modern medicine is also guess work, despite being "evidence based". The BMJ talked about it extensively in the report I posted above. There are a lot of procedures being done now that have no rhyme or reason... they just got pushed through the ranks.

My view of medicine is that we should be taking what works from many different systems and not just relying on the one. The physiomedicalists and their descendants have not done a very good job of managing chronic conditions.

It's unfortunate because people think that when I promote traditional systems that I am saying they should only use traditional medicine. That's not true. I'd love to see hospitals that have modern medicine and traditional systems side by side, like we see in Asia. Modern medicine has an abysmal track record for chronic conditions... but it's great for emergency care and certain other conditions (like diabetes mentioned above). If we had an synergetic system, we could have a really healthy and robust population. As it stands, modern medicine is a hegemonic force that does not want companions. They want to rule everything.
 
i said i don't believe you because you gave me no reason to. i don't believe anyone who states something as fact without backing it up, you have not backed it up despite repeated requests. i feel like you are purposely twisting my meaning and taking snippets out of context to avoid answering my questions. your evasiveness is telling. if you have answers that stand up to scrutiny, why not just share them? this is a great forum for you to promote your understanding of things to skeptics and if you're genuinely in the business of saving lives i'd have thought you'd be happy to share your life saving knowledge.

if you provide answers to my questions that are reasonable, i am open to believing you. do you diagnose cancer yourself? if so, what biomarkers do you use? under what circumstances would you advise someone to go to a doctor practising western medicine?
 
i said i don't believe you because you gave me no reason to. i don't believe anyone who states something as fact without backing it up, you have not backed it up despite repeated requests. i feel like you are purposely twisting my meaning and taking snippets out of context to avoid answering my questions. your evasiveness is telling. if you have answers that stand up to scrutiny, why not just share them? this is a great forum for you to promote your understanding of things to skeptics and if you're genuinely in the business of saving lives i'd have thought you'd be happy to share your life saving knowledge.

if you provide answers to my questions that are reasonable, i am open to believing you. do you diagnose cancer yourself? if so, what biomarkers do you use? under what circumstances would you advise someone to go to a doctor practising western medicine?

I don't usually cater to hardcore skeptics because they're not true skeptics, but pseudoskeptics... people who think their doubts are proof, and they doubt ceaselessly despite any testimony to the contrary.

I don't diagnose cancer, but I do treat it.

I am certainly open to friendly discussions but not hostile skepticism. I find it mind boggling that anyone in the year 2019 would actually believe that plant medicine is useless when its uses are widespread.

Cancer is a difficult disease, as I mentioned earlier. Some people die no matter what happens. I had a client just this week who is wealthy. He flew his wife all over the world getting expensive, experimental treatments of all kinds... modern medical, traditional, etc... you name it. She still died, at more or less the time she was told she would. I've also met people who have had cancer for 20+ years and are living a relatively normal life.

This subject is incredibly complex and can't be distilled down to "can you cure cancer or not". What kind of cancer? Who has it? How long have they had it? Any comorbidities? What is their disposition toward the cancer? Are they active or lazy? The list goes on and on.

Nobody, not even modern medicine, can claim to have a cancer cure. What I'm saying is that I've seen all kinds of things cure cancer, but nothing is guaranteed to do this. No system of medicine can make that claim.
 
thank you very much for actually answering, i really appreciate it.

you are right that some people will die regardless. that is why we are working on (amongst others) glioblastoma multiforme, its a death sentence at present.

i don't really know what you mean by pseudoskeptic, it is the way that science is done. We know that what we are doing is wrong, there is a vanishingly small chance of hitting 'the truth,' we just hope our approximation of it works well enough until something better comes along. If i didn't take that attitude, i'd probably have quit my PhD when, after 2 years, new experimental evidence destroyed the model i was working on.

i don't believe that plant medicine is useless, and did not say that. a huge number of current medicines are derived from plants. i just don't believe that in its current incarnation, plant based traditional medicine is capable of curing a lot of diseases that modern medicine can, because if it could, they WOULD be the modern medicine, not alternative.
 
The vinca alkaloids used in cytostatic therapy are extracted from plants...
 
i just don't believe that in its current incarnation, plant based traditional medicine is capable of curing a lot of diseases that modern medicine can, because if it could, they WOULD be the modern medicine, not alternative.

This, right here, is the problem... the either/or mentality, and not understanding history.

First off, plant based medicine was not out-competed by modern medicine in the U.S., it was politically stamped out by force. It used to be much, much more pervasive. The school of ecclectic herbalists were widespread and they were using scientific methods to better understand plant medicine. The mother school in Connecticut was the last to close and just 10 years ago all of the old records were digitized to the internet for the first time. It's a true treasure trove.

Secondly, plant based medicine does cure a lot of diseases. I have seen this first hand. Traditional systems are capable of dealing with a lot of things, without the aid of fancy modern diagnosis technology. I'm not saying that should be the norm, I am just describing its capacities. For example, in Chinese medicine, we can use the signs of the body to diagnose syndromes thanks to thousands of years of inductive observations. The western herbal tradition has its own diagnostic model that works just fine.

Third, most of the world's population is living in places where hybrid systems are used... like China and India. In both places, there are hospitals with mixed modern medical and traditional medical systems. This is because herbal medicine more effectively treats many diseases... and we're not talking pharmaceuticals that are derived from herbs, we are talking herbs in their original forms. Plant synergy is superior to pharmaceuticals in many cases. It's the reason why modern antibiotics are failing but plant based anti-microbials are not.

In Chinese mixed hospitals, if you have a broken bone, need surgery, a specific pharmaceutical, or diagnostics, you go to western medicine. If you have a chronic condition, then they send you to the TCM department. Their entire system is based on efficiency and efficacy. They've even figured out how to deliver herbal medicine by IV and have put out loads of studies backing this up.

This is why it's hard to have these discussions. Most people are not privy to the history or knowledge of this in the west because we are brought up in schools and political systems that are part and parcel with the politics that want to prevent people from understanding their own heritage of plant medicine. Before the AMA went on a witch hunt against all the other schools (including midwifery), we had robust and diverse medical options just like in China and India. Then the physiomedicalists took over and seized all the power. We still haven't recovered from that.

You have to understand, as a PhD, that the herbal world is just as diverse, complex, and multi-specialized as it would be to take an academic degree. You can't just put herbal medicine under all one category and say it works or it doesn't. That's unscientific and also not how medicine works. Some medicines are more effective than others. Some are REALLY effective. Some are mixed. As herbalists, we openly admit to this and talk approaches all the time.
 
the either/or thinking is in part because i'm autistic. i could start trying to challenge it but i'm so bored and tired by all the stuff i have to remember to do to seem normal and avoid being ostracised that i don't fancy adding another to the list so i'll just acknowledge it as a known weakness.

i found your post really interesting and am pleased we're actually having a grown up discussion now. i did not know any of the stuff you said, and it has influenced my opinion. i found plenty of reference to plant based treatment modalities being used for chronic conditions in Chinese hospitals in journals that appear to be reputable. i honestly did not know this and do not know how i would have found out otherwise, simply because i wouldn't have even known to look.

i'm not going to dismiss herbal medicine so readily in the future. part of what is difficult is separating alternative health claims that are genuinely backed up by evidence from outright lies, especially when some have convincing looking data (Myles Power did a great video on how a study was faked to make it look like drinking bleach instantly cures malaria). this is why it is important for people like yourself to nudge people like myself in the right direction to find such evidence, so i thank you for that.
 
the either/or thinking is in part because i'm autistic. i could start trying to challenge it but i'm so bored and tired by all the stuff i have to remember to do to seem normal and avoid being ostracised that i don't fancy adding another to the list so i'll just acknowledge it as a known weakness.

i found your post really interesting and am pleased we're actually having a grown up discussion now. i did not know any of the stuff you said, and it has influenced my opinion. i found plenty of reference to plant based treatment modalities being used for chronic conditions in Chinese hospitals in journals that appear to be reputable. i honestly did not know this and do not know how i would have found out otherwise, simply because i wouldn't have even known to look.

i'm not going to dismiss herbal medicine so readily in the future. part of what is difficult is separating alternative health claims that are genuinely backed up by evidence from outright lies, especially when some have convincing looking data (Myles Power did a great video on how a study was faked to make it look like drinking bleach instantly cures malaria). this is why it is important for people like yourself to nudge people like myself in the right direction to find such evidence, so i thank you for that.

Thank you for being so conscientious. You are right, there is also a lot of quackery. The natural health industry is multi-billion dollar now and there's a lot of garbage being peddled. I openly admit this. I spend just as much time debunking their quacks as I do modern medical skeptics. You just don't see that here because these forums tend to lead more toward medical science skepticism. There are also low grade practitioners and "healers" out there who are trying to sell snake oil. I think the best thing you can do to protect yourself as a patient is to look for registered credentials and inquire about the person's education. You have a right to know.

The American Herbalist Guild (AGH) is reputable. Anyone who has their designation has done the work. There are also registered TCM herbalists in Canada. I don't think there are any other herbal designations. The herbal guilds hold their own standards that are not government enforced, but they take their profession seriously and don't let quacks join register with them. Herbalists in the AGH need to have done an entire education program + sciences.

Just like there are good and bad MDs, there are good and bad herbalists. You don't know my personal story but I have dealt with life threatening illness for the past 5 years. I almost died many times. I use all systems of medicine, some more than others. Herbs have their place in the greater diaspora.

My profound wish is for an integrated health care system that uses everything. One day I feel this will come true, but for now it's just not possible.
 
thanks very much for your response and apologies for the delay in my reply. i have been extremely tired and was away a few days.

thanks for the tips as well, they make sense. its so easy to look up peoples credentials these days and cross reference their information that i don't know how people get away with lying or peddling junk degrees but apparently they do. and yeah, there are certainly bad MDs as well, i've met my fair share!!

i am really interest in what you would look out for to diagnose cancer. the reason for this is because i'm pretty sure most people in my field are like me, and dismiss anything alternative out of hand, but don't get any pointers about how to go about actually verifying what there is evidence for. so it wouldn't surprise me if people in western medicine do not use the same diagnostic markers. if i could work out what cellular processes and molecular pathways might be involved in the things you look for, i can check whether there is anything in the literature for them in relation to cancer, and if not, look at the transcription and protein data we have (or more realistically, public datasets as we only study a few types of cancer) for differential expression related to your markers. i understand from what you said before that this would be individual specific, but if there's anything reasonably common that might do. it would be awesomely cool if anything got thrown up as it could lead to new diagnostic tests.
 
thanks very much for your response and apologies for the delay in my reply. i have been extremely tired and was away a few days.

thanks for the tips as well, they make sense. its so easy to look up peoples credentials these days and cross reference their information that i don't know how people get away with lying or peddling junk degrees but apparently they do. and yeah, there are certainly bad MDs as well, i've met my fair share!!

i am really interest in what you would look out for to diagnose cancer. the reason for this is because i'm pretty sure most people in my field are like me, and dismiss anything alternative out of hand, but don't get any pointers about how to go about actually verifying what there is evidence for. so it wouldn't surprise me if people in western medicine do not use the same diagnostic markers. if i could work out what cellular processes and molecular pathways might be involved in the things you look for, i can check whether there is anything in the literature for them in relation to cancer, and if not, look at the transcription and protein data we have (or more realistically, public datasets as we only study a few types of cancer) for differential expression related to your markers. i understand from what you said before that this would be individual specific, but if there's anything reasonably common that might do. it would be awesomely cool if anything got thrown up as it could lead to new diagnostic tests.

Like I said, I don't diagnose cancer... but when cancer patients come to me with a pre-existing diagnosis, asking me to balance their bodies, there are some typical signs. Cancer patients all have excess in their bodies, due to some debility with detoxing or they are in a "holding" pattern of some kind. Not to mention the cancer itself is an excess. In the Asian systems, it tends to manifest as dampness and phlegm. There's something unhealthy in there that can't be purged, which inhibits the cellular environment.

Once cancer patients start going the chemo and radiation route, they all have toxic heat with yin deficiency. Yin deficiency looks like... the material substance of the body is depleted and can no longer regulate all the hot, metabolic functions. Yin is cooling and without it, their bodies are on fire. They get night and day sweating, any amount of endurance causes too much heat, their sleep is disturbed due to all the heat, their stomachs are burning when they eat food, etc. Taraxicum is often used in this phase along with other toxic heat clearing herbs. Even modern medicine is now manufacturing drugs based on taraxicum, though they seem to be inferior to the whole plant.

In late stage terminal cancer, the excesses overwhelm the body and deplete it of all its vital treasures. This is what we call excess with deficiency. A lot of modern people have bodily excess but they can live because their underlying bodily resources are still strong enough to fight it. Your arteries can be full of plaque and your blood pressure high, but your heart can be strong enough to force the blood to flow. Eventually when the heart gets too weak to sustain this, the person has a heart attack. In TCM we call it heart yang collapse because all of the fire of the heart dissipates, the person gets cold sensations in their chest, they get cold sweats, and the fire of the upper body begins to go out (the lower fire, or root fire, comes from the kidneys/adrenals). This happens because excess eventually overwhelms the natural yang of the heart, causing deficiency.

Cancer is complicated because it's always some mix of excess and deficiency. Pure excess conditions and pure deficiency conditions are easy to treat, but a mix of the two is complicated.

What I'm describing here is oversimplified. Bottom line, in TCM we don't look at "cancer", we look at what the body is doing. If the body has too much heat, we cool it; if too much dampness, we dry it; if too much cold, we warm it; if too much toxic, we clear it, etc. Modern medicine fights cancer, but they don't know what to do to aid the body. For example, most cancer patients have devastated immune systems... we might give huang qi (astragalus) for that. Modern medicine has no comparable adjunct because modern medicine is concerned only with what the pathology is doing, not what the body is doing. Also, they can't patent herbs, only their pharmaceutical variations, which tend to be inferior... so herbs are not profitable, so they don't use them.

In TCM we fortify the body and then the wisdom of the body rectifies the disease. We don't fight the disease itself -- at least, not traditionally.

That's why a lot of herbalists encourage cancer patients to do herbal medicine + chemo. Chemo gets at the cancer, and the herbs protect the body.
 
I obviously haven't read extensively on the matter, but have any comprehensive scientific analysis ever been done of TCM and some of the ideas it has about the body?
 
Really interesting post, Foreigner. It sounds like TCM approaches health from the bottom up, while modern medicine approaches it from the top down. It would be great if we could merge the two. Preventative medicine and an understanding of how to have a healthy, functioning body and keep it that way are sadly missing in so many people and doctors.
 
I love animals. I'm honestly one of those people that has trouble even killing a mosquito or cockroach.

In spite of that though, I do believe humans have to come first. I hate animal testing and I can't wait for the day when computer simulations render animal testing obsolete, but so long as that's not the case, much as I hate it, I will support animal testing.

The animals should not needlessly suffer, but I do think it's morally OK to do animal testing to improve the safety and health of humans.

I love animals, but humans come first.

EDIT: By the way, I'm aware that humans are animals, but for simplicity purposes for this post you can consider the word animal to be separate from humans.
 
I have a mini-zoo in my house, luckily I don't step in needles because it's a mansion and so space isn't a problem. Cuttin from list other insects which I use to feed my other pets, I have butterflies/moths/dragonflies/bees. All these mentioned exceptin the bees which are outside, they are placed in my dorm which's covered with glass. ( purple lights because they calm them down).
 
I don't neccesarily disagree, but what is your reasoning for this?

Good question.

I suppose it all ultimately comes down to the belief that human life is more valuable than animals. Perhaps not in the objective sense, but definitely in the sense that it should be more subjectively valuable to us as a society of humans.

We can either test on animals, or we can not. If we don't, presumably that would result in greater difficulty creating safe medicines and and treatments for people. Delays... Increased danger, etc.

Animals, even in their natural environment, already are subject to the whims of the indifference of nature. It's not like we are taking animals from wonderful blissful lives and subjecting them to experiments.

All in all, while I'd still rather not experiment on animals, and have no desire to cause animal suffering, I do believe human life has greater value.

Why does it have greater value? That's a really tough thing to answer. Animals suffer just as we do. Though animals don't have to suffer from the knowledge of future suffering. For instance, no animal suffers from knowing it has cancer, only from when the cancer causes pain. Animals can have families and suffer from the loss of other animals, like us.

We do live longer than most animals used in testing, though it's questionable if that really means anything practical.

So the only answer I can really give for why humans should be more valuable to us, is that we are human. For some like me that's a good enough reason, for others it's probably not.

In spite of that though, most humans are capable of empathy towards animals, and don't wish to cause them needless suffering. I don't think animal testing should be allowed to cause any more suffering than absolutely nessesary to get the data needed.

And I look forward to a time when we can use computer simulations to replace all animal testing.
 
foreigner thanks for the info! what you say is interesting. my job also basically involves looking for imbalances, but at the gene/protein expression level. it would be interesting to try to work out how to go between the two world views.

JessFR- i agree that humans should come first too. essentially i think it comes down to intelligence for me, as i assume that correlates with capacity to suffer. i have no problem whatsoever with the experimentation we've done on fruit flies and worms, because they just don't have enough brain for me to see how they can have much capacity to suffer. the way ethical approval is given mirrors this, there's a lot of checks and balances to even work on mice and rats, and if you fuck up too many times you won't be allowed to anymore. in comparison to working on larger animals, its easy to be allowed to work on rats and mice. for primates you have to have serious reasons why another species isn't possible, so very little testing is done on primates these days.

simulations are a way off for biological systems, they're too complex for classical computing to be of much use, but we're working towards replacing animal testing with 'organ on a chip' technologies based on human cells- which would be more accurate than animal or in vitro testing.

the point someone raised much earlier in this thread, that me doing my job or not does not affect whether the animal testing is done, basically put my mind at rest.
 
Each more complex life form on earth lives off the less complex previous forms, humans are no different. We kill life to eat it and it sustains us, regardless of eating animals or just restricting yourself to plants everything except your sodium and trace mineral intake was living.

Personally I cant see a difference between eating meat or leaves, somebody dies either way. Using plants to produce medicine doesnt trigger anyone's consciousness, it seems only our ability to see our closeness in species to some animals causes issues for people who have beliefs that segregate life into differing categories.

If we killed all the fruitflies to test drugs like we do for food or other marketable animal parts it would be a different issue. Making drug testing on animals difficult but allowed use of animal lives is far more appealing then destroying huge tracts of biologically diverse rainforest so I can have a tasty breakfast sandwich.
 
Each more complex life form on earth lives off the less complex previous forms, humans are no different. We kill life to eat it and it sustains us, regardless of eating animals or just restricting yourself to plants everything except your sodium and trace mineral intake was living.

Personally I cant see a difference between eating meat or leaves, somebody dies either way. Using plants to produce medicine doesnt trigger anyone's consciousness, it seems only our ability to see our closeness in species to some animals causes issues for people who have beliefs that segregate life into differing categories.

If we killed all the fruitflies to test drugs like we do for food or other marketable animal parts it would be a different issue. Making drug testing on animals difficult but allowed use of animal lives is far more appealing then destroying huge tracts of biologically diverse rainforest so I can have a tasty breakfast sandwich.

I think for most of us, and certainly for me, it's about not causing suffering in life capable of experiencing it.

We can be as certain as we can be about anything that no plants do. And we can be pretty certain at least some animal life doesn't. But a lot of animal life not only probably does, it suffers in a way we can see and trigger empathy in most humans.

That's the distinction.
 
This distinction requires belief that plants don't experience suffering. Since I can see a difference in my own plants depending not only on the mechanics of watering and feeding but my intended attention, I have trouble holding that belief. Even plants cling to life as tenaciously as everyone else, they have no "mind" to carry this out as we understand it, I'm quick to guess we just don't understand it yet.

Regardless of my personal philosophical position (which I may change by tomorrow) it is fairly apparent that as far as earth goes, humanity currently holds the reigns to life itself. We aren't doing a great job, in truth not even passable. Drug tests on animals are one of the least damaging events we are doing to life on this planet.
 
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