One very important thing to take into account here is the brains amazing property reffered to as neuroplasticity. There is some evidence that shows that with time our brains can heal themselves from most types of damage. This could mean that even though our receptors have been substantially reduced through down regulation. New receptors can always form and even get back to pre-addiction levels given enough time. Alternatively there’s the whole “neurons that fire together wire together” thing. This is most likely the explanation for why people who were once long term addicts that have entered into long term sobriety are able to use for just a few days and be thrown back into withdrawals. As opposed to people who are opiate naive using for up to two weeks in a row and experiencing little to no withdrawals. Us addicts already have the pathways for addiction set up and lurking in the recedes of our gray matter.
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BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Misc All drugs - Can you permanently mess up your opiate receptors?
- Thread starter Shant
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One very important thing to take into account here is the brains amazing property reffered to as neuroplasticity. There is some evidence that shows that with time our brains can heal themselves from most types of damage. This could mean that even though our receptors have been substantially reduced through down regulation. New receptors can always form and even get back to pre-addiction levels given enough time. Alternatively there’s the whole “neurons that fire together wire together” thing. This is most likely the explanation for why people who were once long term addicts that have entered into long term sobriety are able to use for just a few days and be thrown back into withdrawals. As opposed to people who are opiate naive using for up to two weeks in a row and experiencing little to no withdrawals. Us addicts already have the pathways for addiction set up and lurking in the recedes of our gray matter.
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Hey guys, I'm sorry I couldn't make it on yesterday. I'm currently without data on my phone, so I'm kind of dependent upon wifi.
If we are talking about how long this stuff lasts, the answer is that we do not really know for sure. There is really a dearth of knowledge regarding addiction and dependence in general. Also, the stream gets heavily polluted by conjecture and misinformation among addicts.
There are, to this day, a ton of misconceptions regarding drugs. For instance, Heroin is not a toxic substance to the body. You could live to be 100 with an Opiate habit if all other health issues are looked after (diet, exercise, etc.). This one tends to blow peoples' minds. Just an example.
I know this is vague, but the answer probably lies somewhere between now and forever. I know from experience that the Kindling Effect can last for years. My point is that for all intents and purposes, we should consider it permanent.
Why? I think because the nature of addiction is such that you are generally, addicted or not. If you go for 5 years without drinking, it means you have likely changed your lifestyle. It's not particularly common for addicts to sober up for years then to return. It happens of course, but it is not the norm.
So, if you've made it several years, you probably dont need to worry about the Kindling Effect. You've probably found a way to stay away from the shit. That's not a great answer, but we dont know. I can tell you it lasts a long time though. As an addict, its something you're always going to have to be cognizant about.
If we are talking about how long this stuff lasts, the answer is that we do not really know for sure. There is really a dearth of knowledge regarding addiction and dependence in general. Also, the stream gets heavily polluted by conjecture and misinformation among addicts.
There are, to this day, a ton of misconceptions regarding drugs. For instance, Heroin is not a toxic substance to the body. You could live to be 100 with an Opiate habit if all other health issues are looked after (diet, exercise, etc.). This one tends to blow peoples' minds. Just an example.
I know this is vague, but the answer probably lies somewhere between now and forever. I know from experience that the Kindling Effect can last for years. My point is that for all intents and purposes, we should consider it permanent.
Why? I think because the nature of addiction is such that you are generally, addicted or not. If you go for 5 years without drinking, it means you have likely changed your lifestyle. It's not particularly common for addicts to sober up for years then to return. It happens of course, but it is not the norm.
So, if you've made it several years, you probably dont need to worry about the Kindling Effect. You've probably found a way to stay away from the shit. That's not a great answer, but we dont know. I can tell you it lasts a long time though. As an addict, its something you're always going to have to be cognizant about.
Banging Bill Burrows lived to 83!
Good point about being able to do opiates indefinitely and do no permanent damage. After 20 years of daily heroin smoking and 90mg of methadone, my doc says I’m healthy as f. Need more vitamin D (not surprising for an always indoor heroin smoker), that’s about it. I’m 43. He even says my lungs are clean as a whistle. And I used a sottering iron to smoke my tar. So if you can imagine, I’ve been smoking lead and tar for 20 years and he says he can’t see a damn thing wrong with my lungs!
What’s the kindling effect?
Thanks for that, all good shit. I’m hoping that neuroplasticity thing really kicks in for me. I’d love to get back to the point where I could enjoy the occasional norc, though I know how stupid that sounds (trust me).
What’s this “neurons that fire together wire together” thing about, mate?
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Wikipedia › wiki › Kindling_(sedati...
Kindling (sedative–hypnotic withdrawal) - Wikipedia
As an agent in the pay of Wikipedia, I present you with some hopefully useful answers. If you are having trouble understanding exactly what this all means we can happily elaborate, but I really feel this page puts it in an easy to understand manner.
If the link doesn't work, Google The Kindling Effect and it will pop up. I'm still figuring out computers. I am 29; past my prime and old
Basically, each time a person becomes dependent upon a given drug, withdraws and becomes re-dependent, withdrawal symptoms will typically come on faster and be more severe than the previous episode.
It's really only mentioned formally in the study of sedative-hypnotic drugs like Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, Barbiturates and other similar stuff. It appears to apply to Opioid use as well. The experiences that we all have as Opioid users makes it pretty much undeniable. I used Heroin for probably 9 months before I got my first big poke.
I think like a lot of conditions, the slow passing of time and our lack of perspective regarding the "big picture" of our lives leads us to not recognize this stuff early on. It can easily be mistaken as a mild sickness or a "cold" in early episodes. It isn't until you get truly sick that you realize something is totally not right.
Yup! I think a lot of people who are prescribed norco (legitimately) and wouldn’t be seen as “addicts” by guys like us run out of their scripts a few days early. They are literally in withdrawal but because they have absolutely no idea about withdrawal they don’t visibly seem to be troubled or show any symptoms. It’s kinda a crazy mind over matter thing.
PS - thanks for all that info. The Kindling Effect sucks big hairy Armenian balls.
PS - thanks for all that info. The Kindling Effect sucks big hairy Armenian balls.
Hey that’s a great tip! Could really come in handy. I totally lost all interest in alcohol after I started with opiates, but I can do a couple shots of something if I must. Thanks for this one mate.
Kara Kava
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I am off methadone 2 months and took oxy for almost a week for dental work and for a couple days i went into mild withdrawal.
Will it always be that way?
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For a very, very long time. I'm talking years or abstinence at least, but it could also be more or less permanent. We just dont know by yet.
The Kindling Effect is pretty well-known around users, but most of the medical community doesn't really understand. If folks released from a detox were operating as if they had never been dependent, I believe relapsing into complete dependence would be much less likely.
In reality, one can make a "mistake", get caught up in the moment and use for a weekend knowing that will be it. That weekend is enough to bring her pretty much back to square one. This is also part of what makes abstinence so hard. A simple dabble with Opioids is enough to bring you right back from the start.
The Kindling Effect is pretty well-known around users, but most of the medical community doesn't really understand. If folks released from a detox were operating as if they had never been dependent, I believe relapsing into complete dependence would be much less likely.
In reality, one can make a "mistake", get caught up in the moment and use for a weekend knowing that will be it. That weekend is enough to bring her pretty much back to square one. This is also part of what makes abstinence so hard. A simple dabble with Opioids is enough to bring you right back from the start.
To better answer your question we’d need to know what you’ve abused and for how long. But 2 months off methadone isn’t all that long in terms of your brain healing. Methadone is the worst opiate to be addicted to imo. I was testing dirty for it for 16 days after I stopped taking it. I wanted to switch to suboxone but they wouldn’t give it to me til I pissed clean. Finally tested clean on day 17. That shouldn't be possible based on its half life (plasma included) but that’s what happened. They say it gets into your bones and leaks out slowly. Sounds like speculation but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told that.
Besides all that, you were on oxies every day for a week. Why wouldn’t you expect to feel some mild withdrawal symptoms?
Sorry for the late reply. I don’t really get on here much.
The theory that “neurons that fire together wire together.” Is a way to explain how our brains make associations to the world based on our own unique experiences to said world.
For example if you were in the military and your environment forced you to develop extra peripheral senses to detect any irregularities in the road that may be IEDs. When you come home you’re likely to have PTSD due to your brain still seeking out and raising red flags for anything seemingly out of place as you drive.
When it comes to addiction your brain may develop associations between things like route of administration and pleasure. Possibly explaining why some become fixated on the needle or smoking or any other ROA.
Although I’ve never heard of the rekindling effect till coming across this thread I think this theory (neurons that fire together wire together) could help explain why it occurs as well. Addicts already have the pathways created for a physiological and/or psychological addiction to take hold, so it only takes a tiny spark to reignite the flame of addiction. Whereas somebody whom has never experienced addiction before does not have these preexisting pathways and must add a steady fuel source before their addiction can become a raging fire.
Sorry I don’t know if I’m doing this theory any justice with my examples. If you really want to learn about it just google “Hebbian theory.”
That was a great explanation, thanks. The
military—> PTSD analogy was a good example.
Deru
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I think it’s a multifaceted issue. I believe the positive behavior changes are huge, and without them, everything typically will come crashing down. That will typically allow not only allow opioid receptor upregulation but also the brain to start rewiring problematic paths, especially with the reward system. I think that’s why rebab facilities really emphasize the fact that less than 8% will never relapse, as it’s something that is likely to happen, especially in the beginning, but being able to cope with it and continue implementing the positive behavioral and lifestyle changes are the true key to success.
Agreed. Even if you get through detox after you’re through the withdrawal stage, the psychological addiction persists. Much harder to beat the psychological addiction than the physical one. That’s why it’s easy to get clean, very hard to stay clean.