adrenal fatigue awareness for ecstasy users

mgmt&mdma

Bluelighter
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Ooo Ooo- My turn! I want to cite a source! ...but I can't find a better example/simile for wasted time and energy than this thread.

So I nominate this thread as the future example of threads exhibiting mindless futility.
hahaaaaaaa yes;).
 

MasterSplinter

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"Ill take a good bean if its Green n mean."
lol, he calls the dude a dumbass for critiquing misinterpretation of the scientific literature, and then he cites wikipedia (without providing the subsequent sources within) as evidence for his argument
Lol Glad I just Muted you. =D

DimlyFourOwls your awfully good at interpreting things there aren't you mister. I'll like you to do better, you cant be a critic if you can't top off your critique.
Amen that fool contributes nothing to discussions!

Can't be any worse than whats in street pills haha I'm down, I'll spread that shyt on my toast
Fuck it toast me up a slice...lets do this.
 

its.euphoric

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just the one at wal mart that's for itching is the one i bought.
The brand was equate, off brand.

If you can find the 2.5% one that's even better. But the highest % i could find was 1 percent. I would just say use it to see how you feel, so you can know that is the problem.

Try getting precursors to cortisol that you can buy otc and don't need a doctor's prescription like progesterone and pregnenolone. Also licornice is suppose to help keep the cortisol that is circulating last longer.
I've never tried these but I don't see why they wouldn't work, unless your body was having problems making cortisol itself.
 

MasterSplinter

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"Ill take a good bean if its Green n mean."
just the one at wal mart that's for itching is the one i bought.
The brand was equate, off brand.

If you can find the 2.5% one that's even better. But the highest % i could find was 1 percent. I would just say use it to see how you feel, so you can know that is the problem.

Try getting precursors to cortisol that you can buy otc and don't need a doctor's prescription like progesterone and pregnenolone. Also licornice is suppose to help keep the cortisol that is circulating last longer.
I've never tried these but I don't see why they wouldn't work, unless your body was having problems making cortisol itself.
Alright your not really going to eat the cream are you? Isnt it skin absorbant?
 

somedud

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^^^ I guess your not getting a slice..

I'll try out the cortisol precursors just for shuts and giggles, I've been pretty lazy lately. Is the cream more effective?
 

its.euphoric

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well progesterone cream will turn into any hormones you are lacking. Cortisol is just cortiosl.
 

BlueBurger

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Just wanted to chime in on this thread. Found it doing some searching online for correlations between MDMA and DHEA/Pregnenolone deficiencies.

So here's my input on this:

I also have developed adrenal fatigue. If you want to give it the "medical" term - since doctors are f*cking idiots and reject any dysfunction of the adrenal system outside of extreme disease.... call it Hypothalamic Pituitary Axis Dysfunction. HPA Dysfunction. Idiot doctors will listen if you use that term, but God help you getting them to do anything outside of lift an eyebrow.

Anyways ... I want to first point out that I believe your use must be excessive for this to become an issue. Either that, or you must endure a ton of emotional stressful events to really knock you down and out first. I spent about 6 months of intense physical and emotional and mental stress fearing that I was dying of some disease.

Depression, no libido, etc. It came on gradually. I've only done ecstasy about 30 times in my life. Always dosed proper (100mg max). Did pre- and post supplements to "protect my brain". Properly hydrated with sodium based drinks. And only did it on special occasions with a minimum of 2 months between experiences. I did everything right.

Its been a gradual decline but i pretty must lost all vitality to life after this stressful event. I think Ecstasy knocked me down and the life experiences knocked me out. My Testosterone levels took a skydive. First thing I found. Then i noticed estrogen was way too low as well. (im male). Then I found that my DHT was low. Strange....

Found out that DHEA is a precursor to the hormone system. That came back low. Hmm... Adrenals...

I developed the craziest symptoms - Neurological. Neuromuscular. Dangerously Low cholesterol, which is a precursor to the entire adrenal / hormone system. Muscle twitching all over my body for months. Muscle pain. Neuropathy in my leg. Locked up muscles that wouldn't release. Fatigue that was debilitating. Doctors diagnosed me with everything from Fibromyalgia to Chronic Fatigue syndrome to possible Multiple Sclerosis to Lyme disease. MRI's ... EMG's .... all my bloodwork normal.

Nobody bothered checking my hormones. Doctors are useless idiots.

I tested myself and found everything wrong.

And as crazy as this sounds - just like the original poster said ... after 2 years of utter misery ... i stumbled on the cure to my symptoms: avoiding gut damaging foods like gluten. It worked. 2 years of twiching and muscle pain ... gone in weeks. Came back every time I ate gluten again.

But that didnt fix my hormone deficiencies. Brain chemical deficiencies. I am now taking DHEA supplements and Clomid to try and kickstart my adrenal system again. Possibly going to take Pregnenolone if that comes back low as well.

This is an extremely complicated process. Bottom line: dont believe anyone who says MDMA (or any stimulant for that matter - coffee - adderall - coke) that excascerbates your adrenaline wont eventually cause damage there. And the damage is far reaching. You dont want to feel like an 80 year old at age 36 like me. Trust me.

Think about it: God gives us just enough energy and chemicals to enjoy pleasures and excitements that come our way for 80-ish years. Just enough. What do you think is going to happen to you if you tap out 20 years worth in 1 year of ecstasy popping? Its cumulative. And just like with Diabetes - the more you SPIKE your glucose levels, the less able your body is to manage glucose on its own. You fry the system. Simple.

If I had just done MDMA and not had 6 months of intense fear and terror along with it, would I have these problems? I believe MDMA knocked me down 10 notches. I believe without it, I wouldve been able to handle the stress. But my system was already fried. (i also was doing adderall on a regular basis - though only 5mg once a week).

Anyways there's my input. Yes I only have 1 post. I just wanted to chime in. Im legit. Been posting on the other drugs forum as Priapism for years.
 

derok

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+1...gluten and dairy trigger my mild anxiety days and increase my bruxism as i experienced myself in my own trial and error. never had problems with it before never, thanks for resurrect this post. i posted before something about "inflammation" and mdma, i knew the triggers but not the cause. this could be a good one.
btw a lot of people with true brain damage seems to have bearable symptoms than a lot of people here. its not only about the structure but about the function.
i have some questions if you dont mind to answer:
a) how did you checked your hormones?
b) do you have a wave pattern on you symptoms intensity?
c) did you get a doctor that took the problem in the right path?
d) could you feed back your results with your therapy? dont worry im (and i hope nobody) not going to go crazy for a cure but talk about it with my neuro.
 

MagickalKat777

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I'm curious about a, c, and d from above as well.

Adrenal fatigue has been tossed around by naturopaths but there's never been any real testing of my hormone levels. I have a great doctor now, maybe I can get him to test my hormone levels.
 

johnjohn123

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BlueBurger is right. If you look at my last post a long time ago, you'll see what I went through. I got my cortisol levels checked (saliva test) 3 months ago and found that I had an adrenal insufficiency. Almost no cortisol all day, so I was completely unable to handle any stressors (sugar, exercise, caffeine, alcohol, etc.) Not sure if this was directly caused by my last usage of MDMA or caused by the stress following, but it is a real issue. I am taking hydrocortisone orally which has allowed me to start exercising again. I don't think I will ever recover fully though. My brain is just totally messed up, almost all substances outside of healthy organic foods make me feel like shit. I'ts been over two years since the incident btw.
 

derok

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johnjohn are you feeling better aside for the food intolerance?
 

zebrafish

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Johnjohn,

Did you ever get an ACTH stimulation test? I would be curious to know.

I think problem is much more common in LTC sufferers than we think, and largely underdiagnosed, and I do think it's a consequence of MDMA.
 

rave_itsrealfun!!!

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I am going to investigate this possibility in relation to my own problems, which include:

-24/7 extreme anxiety and panic attacks and agoraphobia over nothing, I don't have very much to be anxious about

-intolerance for drugs especially stimulants: cannot handle a cup of green tea without flipping out, the thought of taking acid or MDMA or some nonsense like that, or even smoking weed is simply unfathomable. A tiny puff of weed will nearly kill me, sending my heart rate skyrocketing into severe panic mode visibly beating out of my chest, could easily lead to a heart attack. Although this isn't much of a problem as I don't give a fuck about getting high recreationally anymore - these "party drugs" seem so silly to me, another two people checked out at a rave this past weekend. In their early 20's. I stick to what I need to medicate now with few complications: 2.5mg oxycodone (anymore than that and I will get a panic attack), and the odd benzo to calm me down when I freak (actually I'm sort of a regular benzo popper but whatever... since I fried my brain so bad I don't really have a choice... I don't mind a little oxy but it sucks to be so reliant on benzos even though they have pretty much saved my life for the time being, I was completely fucked by anxiety and panic attacks before I discovered them. Sort of have my shit together now if you ignore that little caveat. You can pry the xanax from my cold, dead hands though.

-Extremely severe and debilitating chronic pain in my spine for a few years now... like there is a "knot" at a very specific place and I have gone from an athlete to living a fairly sedentary lifestyle. It is truly hell and it is undiagnosed. MRI, X-rays come back clean but more tests are being conducted as something is severely wrong with me. Cortisone injection worsens pain. This fucking chronic pain has ruined my life, I was a polydrug user but for all I know it could have been caused by the drugs. That's one of my theories at least, I used to get a lot of horrible muscle tension on acid and the like. I also could have just hurt myself in the gym one day... it's all really strange though. These useless, idiotic doctors are no help at all. They should be running me through every test in the book but instead it's talk to them for 10 minutes and then they try to push an SSRI or SNRI... like what the fuck do your damned high paying job and figure out what's wrong with me. I got bloodwork and was surprised to discover that they didn't even bother to check my vitamins or liver enzymes or hormones or anything like that, they were just testing for diseases that can cause chronic pain I guess, never really understood what the fuck they were up to. I am learning to be more aggressive and persistent with them as they seem to be quite complacent.

I used Mdma about 30 times, acid just a handful (which was more than enough, you couldn't pay me to put that utter filth in my body again), and ounces of cannabis per week for a decade quitting last year - which most definitely fucked me up the worst of them all although polydrug use can make things complicated. I would guess that the little bit of acid fucked me up far worse than the large amounts of mdma, that's my gut feeling. I was totally burned by the acid, it's obvious to me as it was sudden onset. Mdma, not so much, but I have my suspicions because it used to be a ridiculously awesome high, there has to be a price for that. I feel like if I got side effects from Mdma, they snuck up on me slowly over a couple years after I quit. I haven't done M in a very long while, and I never really noticed anything while I was using it. It's only now, years later that I have come to understand that I have pretty much ruined my life. I think a lot of this has to do with weed abuse too though, because ever since day 1 I had severe anxiety from weed as a side effect... I'd go from no anxiety at all to feeling like I was dying in one puff... and then once I got heavily addicted and had a huge tolerance it was vice-versa... except these sober panic attacks are very much new to me, I didn't know it was possible. The question is just what the fuck is wrong? Are parts of my brain deformed? I hear cannabis abuse can do that. Is it as simple as a specific chemical imbalance? I refuse to believe that it is psychosomatic or simply "stress triggered" and "all in my head"... even if it was triggered by stress, that is going to cause physical changes in the body. Sorry but smoking 50 bong rips a day is a horrific addiction that obviously might potentially fuck up the brain. That filthy habit was no good, no good at all. And there is no way that this drug abuse did not fry my brain in one way or another, most likely permanently. That much I know. I used to be normal.

I recall that one sufferer who seemed to know a lot, as he obsessively researched and used to post here, he claimed that chronic cannabis users were at greatest risk for developing problems with MDMA use. He seemed to know his shit too.

It would be interesting to come to understand what is actually physically wrong with me as a result of this drug abuse. I have a healthy diet and exercise a bit but that doesn't really do shit once you've fried your nervous system. I mean it's common sense what I have... pretty severe brain damage, possibly spinal nerve damage too... but I'd like to understand this more technically as it would provide some condolence. It's certainly not all in my head, but a serious physical ailment most likely of the brain, and it is most likely widespread damage all over my brain, although my intellectual faculties seem to be relatively intact.

Anyways I have been inspired to push for further medical tests. Something is very much wrong.
 
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zebrafish

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-Extremely severe and debilitating chronic pain in my spine for a few years now... like there is a "knot" at a very specific place and I have gone from an athlete to living a fairly sedentary lifestyle. It is truly hell and it is undiagnosed. MRI, X-rays come back clean but more tests are being conducted as something is severely wrong with me. Cortisone injection worsens pain. This fucking chronic pain has ruined my life, I was a polydrug user but for all I know it could have been caused by the drugs. That's one of my theories at least, I used to get a lot of horrible muscle tension on acid and the like. I also could have just hurt myself in the gym one day... it's all really strange though. These useless, idiotic doctors are no help at all. They should be running me through every test in the book but instead it's talk to them for 10 minutes and then they try to push an SSRI or SNRI... like what the fuck do your damned high paying job and figure out what's wrong with me. I got bloodwork and was surprised to discover that they didn't even bother to check my vitamins or liver enzymes or hormones or anything like that, they were just testing for diseases that can cause chronic pain I guess, never really understood what the fuck they were up to. I am learning to be more aggressive and persistent with them as they seem to be quite complacent.
It's not that the highly paid doctors aren't doing their job, but its more of the fact that most doctors are not trained to recognize or understand damage to the nervous system from drug abuse. The doctors are not going to waste medical dollars "running you through every test in the book" in order to investigate a diagnosis that they don't even recognize, and thus they think the diagnostic yield of these tests are very low. Sometimes I think its better not to disclose you drug use to the doctors on the first visit, so that the doctors can investigate your symptoms in a non-biased way. For example, adrenal insuffiency is diagnosed and treated the same regardless of whether it was caused by the MDMA. Anxiety is treated the same regardless of whether it was triggered by MDMA. Revealing the drug use only clouds their judgement. The exception is IV drug use, such as heroin, which can cause a multitude of problems that are more or less specific to that drug use, and the knowledge of which would allow doctors to include diagnostic possibilities they otherwise would not.

Your symptoms don't sound like those of adrenal insufficiency. This may be a long shot, but have you had a workup for multiple sclerosis or transverse myelitis? Have you had a lumbar puncture?

I recall that one sufferer who seemed to know a lot, as he obsessively researched and used to post here, he claimed that chronic cannabis users were at greatest risk for developing problems with MDMA use. He seemed to know his shit too.
This was based of a retrospective study that showed increased psychological and cognitive issues in those who use both cannibis and MDMA compared to MDMA alone. Given the poorly controlled retrospective nature of this study, it at best established correlation between MDMA/cannibis users and development of symptoms, but not causation. I wouldn't conclude from this study that cannibis+MDMA users are at greater risk of problems simply because they took cannibis alongside their MDMA.
 
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cosmosmariner

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rave_itsrealfun!!! Please don't abuse benzos. Prolonged use or binge abuse can cause severe withdrawal symptoms. Many people have reported that they experience rebound anxiety in between benzo doses. Some of the studies on benzo withdrawal syndrome seem to indicate that the negative effects are permanent.

We got off the topic of adrenal insufficiency, but I wonder if adding rhodiola and/or licorice wouldn't be a prudent post roll supplement.

Cos
 

Strangestuff

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Just thought I would bring this back since this "Adrenal Fatigue" thing aka HPA dysfunction thing is real. It is worth getting tests for testosterone, cortisol, LH/FSH, prolactin, TSH, free t3, total/free t4, ACTH. A blood test is fine but saliva test is better for the overall pattern. One can also do a 24 hr urine test or a 4x/day dried urine test (the best). Other things people test are plasma or urine catacholamines--(only reflects "stress" level in terms of how much adrenaline you are making--it cannot be used for any treatment plan really)

However, what most people don't understand is that it is not the adrenals that are directly the problem! Ashwagandha and other adaptogens are good any many naturopathic websites claim that they heal the "adrenals" but no thats not true. In reality, it is a problem with the PVN of the hypothalamus and the low cortisol is simply reflective of signaling problems in the PVN. Adaptogens, 5-HTP, SSRIs, Buspar, L-Dopa, Benzos, gabapentin, etc help to normalize HPA axis function. So no, your dr is not stupid for giving you SSRIs and saying "adrenal fatigue" doesn't exist--the name for it is just really bad. If you have thyroid or sex hormone issues, fixing those will also help normalize HPA axis. So will fixing nutritional deficiencies and decreasing stress/using mindfulness/CBT. You need to find a dr that treats this stuff holistically from every potential angle.

Direct hormonal treatments like hydrocortisone can potentially help but then comes the problem of coming off of them which can be hell since they suppress your adrenal function.

The HPA axis can essentially be thought of as our "mind-body" connection. When its disturbed--your perceptions and everything get thrown off. You may ask, ok then why do people get better w/o meds as if it really was "all in their head." My answer to that is that the mind-body connection is very powerful. By trying to live life normally, you are pushing your axis to react normally in situations and thus it heads towards its baseline pre-LTC state.
 
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Deltronpedro

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Just thought I would bring this back since this "Adrenal Fatigue" thing aka HPA dysfunction thing is real. It is worth getting tests for testosterone, cortisol, LH/FSH, prolactin, TSH, free t3, total/free t4, ACTH. A blood test is fine but saliva test is better for the overall pattern. One can also do a 24 hr urine test or a 4x/day dried urine test (the best). Other things people test are plasma or urine catacholamines--(only reflects "stress" level in terms of how much adrenaline you are making--it cannot be used for any treatment plan really)

However, what most people don't understand is that it is not the adrenals that are directly the problem! Ashwagandha and other adaptogens are good any many naturopathic websites claim that they heal the "adrenals" but no thats not true. In reality, it is a problem with the PVN of the hypothalamus and the low cortisol is simply reflective of signaling problems in the PVN. Adaptogens, 5-HTP, SSRIs, Buspar, L-Dopa, Benzos, gabapentin, etc help to normalize HPA axis function. So no, your dr is not stupid for giving you SSRIs and saying "adrenal fatigue" doesn't exist--the name for it is just really bad. If you have thyroid or sex hormone issues, fixing those will also help normalize HPA axis. So will fixing nutritional deficiencies and decreasing stress/using mindfulness/CBT. You need to find a dr that treats this stuff holistically from every potential angle.

Direct hormonal treatments like hydrocortisone can potentially help but then comes the problem of coming off of them which can be hell since they suppress your adrenal function.

The HPA axis can essentially be thought of as our "mind-body" connection. When its disturbed--your perceptions and everything get thrown off. You may ask, ok then why do people get better w/o meds as if it really was "all in their head." My answer to that is that the mind-body connection is very powerful. By trying to live life normally, you are pushing your axis to react normally in situations and thus it heads towards its baseline pre-LTC state.
Very good post! Thanks.
 

Speculosity

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I don't understand, so people who suffer cognitive and apathy issues months after MDMA, is it that they have too much cortisol, or too little?
 

Speculosity

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Well both too high and too little for a prolonged period can cause problems.

In the beginning, your body will be too high and then as pregnenolone gets depleted, you will switch to a lower cortisol state.

So if you have had it for months--you can predict a low cortisol state and not a high one.
Thanks. I've been having memory problems, and lessened emotional range for months. I've been trying supplements and nootropics that increase BDNF, exercise, things that regenerate axons, but no luck. Hopefully this might be the issue. I'll update if things turn out better.

I'm gonna buy some licorice root from GNC. If I see results, I'll know this is the issue, and that I should go fix it.
 
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