Heroin About to LOSE suboxone scrip--How long before I can use other opiates? (& precipitated withdrawal ?)?

[Danny_ScottF]

I have a big problem, which is that I am about to lose my suboxone scrip. I had a bad heroine habit (same old sad story--to First Timers: don't try it even once; it's insidious, you only think you will "only do it once", and it sucks your life away). Anyway, I successfully got off it using Suboxone, which I am using at the highest level--16 mg per day. But circumstances beyond my control are about to make me run out. I know there's nothing ideal about saying that I have opiates (H) and plan on using to avoid withdrawal, until I can get a new Suboxone script, but I can't see what else to do. Anyone here who has suffered cold turkey knows it is beyond painful. I just have to to avoid it, and I'm betting going from 16 mg suboxone to 0.00 anything will be about as bad as going off H cold turkey (am I wrong?).

So I guess I have two major questions. The Suboxone binds to the opiate receptors right?, so as far as I understand it, if I try to avoid withdrawal by taking H, it won't work for some time after my last suboxone dose. So question 1) How long do you expect will I have to wait after I take to last suboxone dose does before other opiates or H will work?

Question 2) as I'm sure many of you know, before taking suboxone, you have to be in basically full withdrawal (best, to have a "COWS 26") before taking it, or you can have "precipitated withdrawal", which I've never experienced but scares me silly when I've read about it--I've seen it described as cold turkey, times 10. In fact, when I first went on the suboxone, I waited 30 hours rather than the "12-24" often cited to make sure wouldn't have precipitated withdrawal, as I was so scared of it. Does it work the other way? What I mean is, will I go into precipitated withdrawal if I start using H too soon after stopping the Suboxone? Or does that only work the other direction, when you're first getting ON the suboxone? Thanks so much for your answers.

 

[Liminality]

It won't work if you use it now.

You are better off waiting a lot longer than that. Otherwise you will just waste your product. I know it's gonna be really hard. Geez, 16mg suboxone to 0. Yes that will be bad. But the worst won't even start until day 5 in my experience (maybe even longer, I wasn't on 16mg). Wait until the initial physical discomfort wears off a little bit and you are heading toward the long drawn out no energy period. I'd rather have small supplementation later on than try to avoid that first week or two.

No I don't think it works that way. Only using suboxone after opiates too early. Opiates too early after suboxone just won't work / is a waste - you'll start chasing it because it provides some small relief. But yeah, my strategy above seems to make sense based on my experience with suboxone cold turkey.

If you can be bothered you can set up a spreadsheet that gives you a rough estimate of your blood levels. But that just became a weird fixation for me, I'm not sure that's really that effective.
Just have the day in mind you plan to use. The longer you wait, the better it will be. Bupe withdrawals are very long and drawn out. Keep yourself distracted in the meantime. Everything will suck, but you just go along about your sucky day (don't sit at home doing nothing).

16mg. 37 hour half-life (let's say). 5 half-lives until <2mg = 148 hours = 6 days. + any that has built up in your system.
So maybe longer. I'm not sure.

The effects will wear off. Then 6 days later it will get worse.

I dunno about using heroin to combat it man...
How long until you can get a new script??

 

[Danny_ScottF]

Damn... you're saying that the H probably won't have any effect for days ... which means it won't work at all to combat withdrawal from the suboxone. Damn, damn, damn. Okay so I have three days of Suboxone left - 6 sublingual 8/2 strips so, and I'm just thinking out loud here, to come up with a plan for the least agony ... I take my suboxone at noon, maybe what I should do is tomorrow take 1 sublingual instead of two and do that for three days, and then with three strips left maybe I can go in half again with two: four days of four, then two days of two and I'll be out ... I know that not going to be "fun" but maybe much better than just running out in three days all at once, and maybe that means that the H I have will starting actually working to some extent even on the last days of lower sub strips because some of the opiate receptors will start to free up (I bought a big stash b/c I knew what was coming, but couldn't find any bupe/subutext/suboxone). Does what I said here sound at all sensible? One other question, how bad is suboxone withdrawal compared to H withdrawal? Oh, I don't undertand what you mean when you say "Then 6 days later it will get worse." But that six days later, the H will work, right?

 

[Liminality]

Sounds sensible I guess..planning out all this stuff is just your mind trying to amp you up and get you thinking about some relief. Once you've got a plan, write it down and don't dwell on it.

If you taper off like that, yes you are delaying the time until heroin will work at its most optimal.

Suboxone withdrawal was different to H. The depression/lack of energy (inability to do anything you'd normally do) is the worst. The physical symptoms I didn't find too bad compared to H.
H brings on an intense writhing pain in the bones. It's physically tough to deal with: the vomiting, diarrhea, pain, inability to eat. Suboxone didn't cause those to any significant extent for me.
H will cause intense cravings, like it is a deep hunger. On suboxone, this is clearly still happening, but it's not as "urgent", in my opinion.
The crushing depression from H seems so unreal that it is easy to become dissociated while you watch the clock tick down.

Suboxone was really difficult psychologically for the first week (actually led me to relapse on H, then go back on script).
More anxiety than H, less overall intensity.
Honestly, both are nothing compared to benzo withdrawal, all your senses hurt just using them, the anxiety/nervous tension is unbearable.

Why don't you just wait as long as possible, until you can't take it anymore, then take one 8 mg strip? Or even try 4 mg and see what happens...if it's enough, save it.

It's more the fluctuation in your blood levels that give the psychological effects (I think??)
So wait as long as possible, then take a significant dose. That should have you feeling alright for a day or two.
Never gauge by how 'good' you feel, go by how 'bad' you feel.
I know you are probably used to 16 mg every day, but when I was on 8 mg and 4 mg, I could take it every second day and not experience anything bad.
I just didn't realize that was just me not being under it's influence once the effects wear off.
It will still be in your body for quite a long time.

Also, the ceiling for most people is achieved by 8 mg. I certainly didn't need 8 mg.
The higher dose causes it to last a lot longer, while negative effects increase (cloudy thinking - unless you desire this).

Whereabouts do you live? I know where I am there are emergency clinics which are open for walk-ins. Depending on what your relationship with your doctor is, you could just get back on subs tomorrow. This might not be possible. And might even be unhelpful if you don't already know someone (a doctor willing to help you).
I'd rather just admit I screwed up than try to alleviate this with heroin. Heroin would throw me around psychologically too much.

Day 1 - Suboxone 4 mg @ 12 pm - 4 mg @ 7 pm.
Day 2 - Suboxone 4 mg @ 8 am - 4 mg @ 8 pm.
Day 3 - Suboxone 8 mg @ 11 am - none
Day 4 - Suboxone 4 mg @ 12 pm - 4 mg @ 8 pm
Day 5 - Suboxone 8 mg @ 11 am - none
Day 6 - Suboxone 4 mg @ 8 am - 4 mg @ 8 pm
^^That's your whole 6 x 8/2^^

If you can reduce to 2 mg, that's great, but given your dose, that might be too difficult. You don't want to do anything reckless.
Maybe introduce heroin on day 5, but good luck not going overboard with it.
I'd just avoid it entirely until you really have nothing left and it's been 2 days since your last dose.
Only then would I use the heroin.

I would go for your taper plan. Really try to challenge yourself to take as little as possible, you might be surprised, it won't be what you expect, but it will help.
Just remember you are going for: minimization of overall stress and suffering through these next 2 weeks. Keep that in mind.
The more you take, the more you will want to take. Take some time to accept the withdrawal, then alleviate with as small a dose as possible when you can't take it anymore / want to sleep.

Good luck, stay strong. Realize the contrast between how shitty this is and how good regular life can be.

 

[Helpmeescapethis]

Damn... you're saying that the H probably won't have any effect for days ... which means it won't work at all to combat withdrawal from the suboxone. Damn, damn, damn. Okay so I have three days of Suboxone left - 6 sublingual 8/2 strips so, and I'm just thinking out loud here, to come up with a plan for the least agony ... I take my suboxone at noon, maybe what I should do is tomorrow take 1 sublingual instead of two and do that for three days, and then with three strips left maybe I can go in half again with two: four days of four, then two days of two and I'll be out ... I know that not going to be "fun" but maybe much better than just running out in three days all at once, and maybe that means that the H I have will starting actually working to some extent even on the last days of lower sub strips because some of the opiate receptors will start to free up (I bought a big stash b/c I knew what was coming, but couldn't find any bupe/subutext/suboxone). Does what I said here sound at all sensible? One other question, how bad is suboxone withdrawal compared to H withdrawal? Oh, I don't undertand what you mean when you say "Then 6 days later it will get worse." But that six days later, the H will work, right?

It’ll work after like 24 hours. Won’t be as strong, but it’ll work. Though some opioids break through subs. For instance, I take isotonitazene (research chem) and sometimes fentanyl. I can stay on Suboxone but still get high whenever I want. Also much more affordable than dope (the isotonitszene is, I mean).

 

[Liminality]

Yeah man. I found U-47700 and MT-45 to both work while I was on subs. Probably something to do with the receptors Fentanyl targets. Was actually a really nice combo (U-47700 + Suboxone). It's a nice base to have little bumps from.

It will work for sure. But all the pleasurable parts will be so diminished you'll wish you waited.
Surely that will send your tolerance through the roof (suboxone + heroin on top).
No?? Does it work like that?

 

[Helpmeescapethis]

Yeah man. I found U-47700 and MT-45 to both work while I was on subs. Probably something to do with the receptors Fentanyl targets. Was actually a really nice combo (U-47700 + Suboxone). It's a nice base to have little bumps from.

It will work for sure. But all the pleasurable parts will be so diminished you'll wish you waited.
Surely that will send your tolerance through the roof (suboxone + heroin on top).
No?? Does it work like that?

I mean, fent hits the same receptors as everything else lol. It’s just stronger. The chems you did were strong too.

And it CAN ruin tolerance, but you have to be doing a lot of sub and even more dope. My tolerance has stayed the same with iso. I seriously love this shit, in a fucked up way it saved my life.

 

[Xorkoth]

You will not get precipitated withdrawal from taking other opiates while dependent on bupe, it only goes the other way. The reason bupe gives you precipitated withdrawal is that it is a partial agonist rather than a full agonist, but it has much higher affinity than most other opioids, so basically it kicks the stronger opiates out of the receptors and since it's a partial agonist, it won't fulfill your receptors' needs. Also suboxone has noloxone in it which is an antagonist with very high affinity so that makes it even worse.

 

[Zosoal]

I have a big problem, which is that I am about to lose my suboxone scrip. I had a bad heroine habit (same old sad story--to First Timers: don't try it even once; it's insidious, you only think you will "only do it once", and it sucks your life away). Anyway, I successfully got off it using Suboxone, which I am using at the highest level--16 mg per day. But circumstances beyond my control are about to make me run out. I know there's nothing ideal about saying that I have opiates (H) and plan on using to avoid withdrawal, until I can get a new Suboxone script, but I can't see what else to do. Anyone here who has suffered cold turkey knows it is beyond painful. I just have to to avoid it, and I'm betting going from 16 mg suboxone to 0.00 anything will be about as bad as going off H cold turkey (am I wrong?).

So I guess I have two major questions. The Suboxone binds to the opiate receptors right?, so as far as I understand it, if I try to avoid withdrawal by taking H, it won't work for some time after my last suboxone dose. So question 1) How long do you expect will I have to wait after I take to last suboxone dose does before other opiates or H will work?

Question 2) as I'm sure many of you know, before taking suboxone, you have to be in basically full withdrawal (best, to have a "COWS 26") before taking it, or you can have "precipitated withdrawal", which I've never experienced but scares me silly when I've read about it--I've seen it described as cold turkey, times 10. In fact, when I first went on the suboxone, I waited 30 hours rather than the "12-24" often cited to make sure wouldn't have precipitated withdrawal, as I was so scared of it. Does it work the other way? What I mean is, will I go into precipitated withdrawal if I start using H too soon after stopping the Suboxone? Or does that only work the other direction, when you're first getting ON the suboxone? Thanks so much for your answers.

I am also prescribed 16mg subs daily and have been / currently am in your shoes. The last time I was out of my subs it lasted about 5 to 6 days until I tried other opiates/H and it STILL didn't work. I'm starting to think the bupe broke my brain receptors. I've heard for the amount (16mg) and length of time I've been on it (2-3 years) I would most likely need to wait 2 weeks or more before any other opiates would even have an effect on me. I didn't want to hear that so I've gone on a week or two long amphetamine benders thinking that by the time I was done I could enjoy one more H high. Nope. Still didn't work. For some reason I can avoid all sickness by falling back on addy or clear. But without it, I'm a yawning sweating ball of agony until I get back on my subs and no amount of time that I've tried waiting has allowed me to enjoy the full power of any opiates. I'm sorry my friend and I wish you luck. It really is the worst.

 

[Danny_ScottF]

Day two of only using eight, and you know what? I never needed to use 16! I have no symptoms using eight--none--I feel exactly the same as if I had taken 16. So tomorrow I'm going down to four... I'm going to draw this out as long as possible to free up the receptors so the H will work, and meanwhile, I am hoping "it’ll work after like 24 hours. Won’t be as strong, but it’ll work.", above, is right on. We'll see... Damn, I hate waiting for probable pain.

(I just hope I don't get the "heaves" if I do have a bad withdrawal from the sub; aside from the all-consuming psychic agony from H, while time slows down ("God make this end; I can't stand it; I can't stand it; I cant stand it..." and then I think that at least I've survived another hour and then I look at the clock and only ten minutes have gone by), they are the worst physical thing about withdrawal from H for me -- I'm not sure if this is just a "me symptom", or if other people get this, but I get these wrenching sort of whole body sneezes/heaves that cause my diaphragm to become sore, and as it becomes sore and they happen again, it becomes more sore, and each hurts worse than the last in an increasing vicious cycle. )

 

[sekio]

I can't claim to have experience this myself, but my understanding is that buprenorphine is much stronger than people give it credit for; you may find that 2mg works just as well as 8mg.

Worst case you can take more bupre, best case it's gonna extend your supply a lot.

Unfortunately, my quicky calculation method to figure out the estimated time to eliminate a drug entirely (estimated at 7 x the half life), works out to an estimate of around 260 hours, or about 11 days.to reduce a single dose to less than 1% reamining. If you were taking it everyday, add more time. Buprenorphine has a long half life, anywhere from 20 to 70 hours. One day off bupe isn't enough. After 2 days there's going to be a little less than 50% of the initial ose left, the amount halving every additional 37h.

The foolproof answer would be give it a 2 week wait between the last bupre dose and an attempt to use a full agonist.

 

[bbabygrl]

I just took 24 mg 3 8 mg subs today still not holding will i feel the h if i do a shot or will it make me sick
not i just i started at 9am 1 8mg afew hours later 1 more and about 5 hours ago 8mg i have a great amount of it all in close vacinity my other half is loaded off his ass and will be upset if i want a shot but i do how long do i wait

 

[Bag84]

Sorry in advance for the long post, I know this is an old thread but I wanted to add something. The OP was on 16mg. This isn’t for everyone but honestly most of the time doctors WAYYYY up the dosage so you CAN’T get high or feel anything and basically makes you a slave to subs. Just like any other drug, great when you have it, horrible when you don’t.

Anyway. IME, I was on 16mg (8x2) and then felt that was way too strong so they lowered me to 12mg a day (4x3) also said taking it 3 times a day will help with pain. Well, honestly, suboxone maybe a wonder drug and life saver for most people, but for me, just the mental aspect of it was brutal, the withdrawals are so much worse and so much longer. Eventually I got so tired of it I immediately cut my dose to 6mg a day and felt absolutely no difference (wondered why I was on this much for months) then after a few days went to 4mg and then went to 2mg. So from 16 to 12 and then 12 to 2 in a matter of a couple weeks. I stayed at 2 for the longest time all the while never telling my doctor I lowered my dose saving up the subs so I can stop pissing in that goddamn cup.

After 11 months I quit going to the sub doctor and had about 200 8mg sublingual strips, I used some to taper from 2 to 1mg (didn’t feel any different) then to .5mg after a week at 1, then from 0.5 to 0.25 after another week. That’s when it got hard. This one I felt, I was dosing once per day and I noticed every night before bed I would feel terrible so I would have to dose another 0.25 (btw I have no idea how I managed to cut such a tiny fraction of that 8mg strip, but I have OCD so they were very precise but meticulous).

So I eventually jumped off after a week or so teetering between .5 and .25mg a day. I was miserable, depressed, anxious like my heart was gonna explode any minute, time seemed to go by slower than the seconds on the microwave while waiting for your pizza rolls to get done. Just brutal mentally and physically.

I started taking kratom (I’ve had the stuff for months cause a friend gave me some cause I told him I was quitting subs and he gave me some and said try it, it works great for that, but never touched it cause I mean for gods sake it was a natural, unregulated herb that’s sold at a smoke shop, how can it possibly compare to strong opioids? Well it took a little bit of trying but I got the dose right and it was all gone, all the withdrawal symptoms disappeared. Even gave me a pretty good buzz sometimes.

But everything has its downfall, kratom is addicting in its own way, if I didn’t take kratom for a few days I’d feel like crap, not even oxy could make it go away, it had to be kratom. And I had to consume so much it just got to me so I pretty much quit that (only take it once in a while).

Right now I’m taking oxy. Trying to stay at 30mg (15mgx2). That’s my allowance (i don’t hold my medication and knowing there’s more always seems to make me feel sicker, or knowing I have one on my night stand makes me feel better mentally and physically. it’s such a mental mind fuck. If I run out and get sick I’ll freak out and feel if I don’t get one in the next 30 secs I’m gonna explode, but I get an extra one every now and then and as soon as my mother puts the pill on my hand, it’s like I don’t need to take it right now.) my comfort zone would be 60mg (20x3). That’s where I’m just baseline. Not high, not low, maybe a few hours of not feeling good but I’ll take that.

So my point was, IME, DRASTICALLY dropping my dose of subs did not produce any bad effects or withdrawal. If you’re on 16, I don’t think you’ll even notice cutting your dose in half or more. It’s a strange drug and the half life is so long it builds up in your system and you just keep staggering your doses. I can’t even imagine how much I had built up in my system when I was on 16mg everyday. 2mg is really easy to get to really quick.

sorry again for the long post, I know this is an old thread but hopefully someone somewhere will benefit from it.

P.S I keep seeing people say that suboxone has Naloxone in it and that’s what cause PW. That is false. The fact is, the naloxone in suboxone is dormant if taken anyway other than injecting. It’s just a deterrent to not abuse it. It’s not active if taken any other way (plugging, snorting, sublingual) but I heard some people inject it without going into PW so maybe it’s just a scare tactic. I dint know for sure about that but I do know that the naloxone is suboxone does not cause the PW people experience. The result is because the bupe strips the receptors clean and then kinda coats them but doesn’t fit perfectly (which is why it’s a partial agonist) so you’re body kinda goes into shock for a while (PW). It also “shields” any other opiate from attaching (which is why it’s also an antagonist). So please, stop spreading this dangerous misinformation. Someone who gets subutex (bupe without naloxone) will think they are safe to take it anytime without fear of PW. So please. Get the facts right before you post this stuff, it’s potentially dangerous.