Misc A warning to new Kratom users

[Mam-I-Am]

I was hoping that in this forum I could find and talk with people who have had similar experiences to mine. This thread seems to exhibit animosity towards people who have had problems. I hoped to start a new conversation in another thread, but that thread was closed. I don't think that this site is where I need to be. I have two kids under two years of age, and what I have recently gone through with my health has scared the shit out of me. I know that kratom is usually benign, but it is causing a
reaction in some people. Support and understanding is what I had hoped for.

I feel for you guys who have had liver problems. I know how painful and unsure the situation can be. I guess if anyone wants to talk, you can PM me.

 

[Bagseed]

I too wonder, why such reactions only start to pop up now? I mean Kratom has been popular for many years in the western world and a lot of bluelighters have taken it, many of them even daily, and never have we seen reports like that.

but now, since some weeks (i think), reports from mostly inexperienced users appear reporting liver damage after kratom use. maybe there is a bad batch going around?

 

[bukweat]

Lady Codone isn't a greenlighter. Head shops aren't where I would purchase something to ingest. Profiteers abound in the supplement and vitamin industry.

 

[samsavenger]

This place prides itself on its reputation as a drug-related harm reduction forum. To treat people with suspicion and to accuse them of lying because they've reported health issues caused by kratom is so ridiculously moronic I can't even begin to express... What makes it even more absurd is that this exact kratom-induced health problem is well documented elsewhere and has been reported in published medical literature.

I find it odd that this seems to be an issue only affecting greenlighters...

The sample rate of kratom-using bluelighters who you meet your ridiculous standards as being 'trustworthy' is obviously low in proportion to the number of people using kratom globally - however this is an obvious place for people to come and report/seek advice if they experience drug related health problems regardless of whether they have a high post count against which you can cast judgement on their perceived credibility.


Obviously this liver issue doesn't happen to everyone, some people seem to be able to use kratom safely and even in large amounts for long periods of time without developing liver issues. However, an unknown number of people seem to be developing intrahepatic cholestasis after using kratom in the absense of other factors, sometimes even after very small amounts. The mechanism which causes this is not understood at all. There is no consensus on whether it's a general toxicity issue, a dietary/enzymatic complication, an allergic response, a metabolic issue with specific people, a particular strain(s) or source of kratom, etc.. - hence the warning to new kratom users. The correlation with the recent increase in the popularity/availability of kratom in the western world is hard to ignore.

There is no conclusive safety data for kratom. It's obviously up to you what you put in your body, but it's ridiculous to insist it's safe for others based on your completely subjective understanding of how it works for you.

for the people who can't seem to get it through their skulls that this happens sometimes...
anecdotal:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=88678
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=45265
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=96857
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=93736
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84159
http://hepcukforum.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10259&sid=e89b36b054f41dc2854aefbb2b1a4977
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/662349-liver-issues-after-very-little-use-of-kratom

peer-reviewed literature:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13181-011-0155-5?LI=true#page-1
http://www.youblisher.com/p/373689-Borneo-Kratom/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300483X08003120
http://journals.lww.com/drug-monito...istry,_Pharmacology,_and_Metabolism_of.4.aspx
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13181-011-0202-2

 

[Mam-I-Am]

I think the isolated incidents of liver problems from kratom should be discussed to see if a common cause can be found. Dismissing these consequences doesn't really help anyone. I don't want to see kratom become illegal, but sweeping our reports under the rug is not going to help if there is a cause that can be determined.

 

[Opanaking]

I have taken kratom for months off and on and have never had any liver problems. It's possible that you guys are experiencing this problem from something else not related to kratom. Either way it has been proven safe and your words mean nothing without a comprehensive study.

I have never heard of this happening, but anything is possible especially if someone has a predisposed condition.

Why don't we discuss liver damage from drinking alcohol and taking pills? I agree these green lighters are annoying.

 

[Sidescoop]

I would believe it has more to do with the other stuff in his system as some of the others here have said. Most of the reports out there that accuse Kratom of causing damage to the liver show that the subject also had other liver damaging chemicals in there body. Just like with any other drug however, there are gonna be some that it doesn't mix well with. I once took acid thinking it would he great going off what my friend told me. He took a hit and had great effects and a good time. I took the same stuff and freaked out for 12 hours straight and had severe psychological issues for a week after. I don't drink because it instantly makes me feel like Shit. So let's ban alcohol because it has an adverse reaction in my body... No, why not? Oh yea, because millions of people love a drink every now and then or all the time depending but maybe you get my point here. Take it at your own risk, just like with anything else. It's good to report issues but let's be honest and respectively take the steroid into consideration.

I have personally eaten bushels of this leaf and have gotten addicted. It's a lightweight compared to the lightest of opiates like Vicodin/Norco. In my experience though. Kratom is a life saver for me. Even though I do get addicted to it, its pretty easy to kick with a taper. It's shown for me to be a healthier alternative to prescription meds for pain any day of the week. I hate the way I feel after a week of continuous use of Norco. Kratom doesn't give me that nasty feeling.

It's my opinion that too much Shit is illegal. How bout we all be responsible for what we put in our bodies and accept the consequences of such. Stop blaming the drugs and start looking inward at what the real problem is. My opinion anyway. Stay safe.

 

[Mam-I-Am]

Well, sorry if our words mean nothing and us "greenlighters" are annoying. Look, if you haven't had any problems, good for you. Does it really add to the conversation that in your opinion kratom could not be the cause of our problems? Hell, even if we were all hard-core drug users, the fact that kratom has been implicated as one of the last substances taken before these problems began should be troublesome. However, most of these health-related cases involve people with few other variables. Seriously, if someone could go into the hospital after ingesting kratom with one glass of wine, that is not right.

The fact that alcohol with pills causes liver problems is well documented; however, the fact that kratom with alcohol, ssri's, nothing else, etc. causes liver problems is not very well documented. In the UK I believe, several people died from laced kratom, and that problem was rightly fixed. I have seen at least 10 reports from others about life threatening liver problems, and that should in my opinion be just as distressing. We do take responsibility for the consquences of our actions, and telling others about our experiences could help someone else with theirs.

 

[Opanaking]

What is your goal? I find this thread title misleading. The Original Poster had steroids in his system which could have caused this.

Your also talking about people who have passed away from "laced kratom" keyword laced. So it's not the kratom alone causing this problem.

People are always going to be going to the hospital. Someone might eat a pot brownie and think they are dieing and go to the ER. Does that mean pot is bad? No. I think it's a similar phenomenon with kratom.

Inexperienced users trying it then having a problem, then blaming it on kratom. That is irresponsible. Kratom should be treated with respect just like other drugs. Start low until you know how it will effect you. And of course don't take it everyday because it can be habit forming.

All arguing aside lets look at the good things kratom is capable of. I know it helped me get off stronger opiates many times. Many people would not have been able to get clean if it was not for kratom. It is an amazing alternative to methadone and suboxone, both which have terrible withdrawals.

The people that are trying to just get high from it are ruining it's good name. It has helped thousands of people addicted to opiates taper off and get clean. To me those positives outweigh any negatives it might have on some random inexperienced user trying to give there 2 cents.

 

[samsavenger]

Either way it has been proven safe and your words mean nothing without a comprehensive study.

your logic is mind boggling... how on earth can you insist that it's been "proven safe" given that there are no comprehensive studies?.. by your own reasoning, "your words mean nothing".

it's ridiculous for people to engage in victim-blaming or denying the validity of other peoples subjective accounts in the name of "preventing prohibition". It's not reasonable for you to expect people to censor themselves because of your feelings about a plant or your paranoia about your government. you'll be hard pressed to find anyone here who doesn't agree that drug prohibition policies are ridiculous and don't work, we're all in agreement about that or I'd imagine we wouldn't be here. Also, if you really think that lawmakers are trolling bluelight looking for reports of kratom induced liver injuries so that they can ban it, go build yourself a tin-foil hat instead of whinging about it here. people posting shit on bluelight is not going to contribute to kratom being made illegal. It's already illegal in several countries, the DEA is already well aware of kratom along with every government on earth. There are already published medical studies detailing exactly the same thing as the people on this thread are reporting. go and take it up with them instead of whinging about people discussing their drug related health issues on a forum designed for people to discuss drug related health issues.

the reason we're discussing kratom related health problems and not other drug or alcohol related health problems, is because this is a thread about kratom related health problems. you also might have noticed that this is posted in "other drugs". that's what this forum is for. it's not the "let's ignore one drug because some guy thinks it's less important to discuss than some other more problematic drug" forum. ffs people.

there is no "conspiracy of greenlighters" plotting to demonise kratom. what planet are you people on? I don't know any of these people, none of them know me, and I highly doubt any of them know each other. as I pointed out earlier, there are reports of this spread across the internet dating back several years, correlating very closely with the rise of kratom popularity/availabiltiy in the US and europe. It's nothing new, and your accusations that it's a prohibition conspiracy are completely absurd.

go and read the studies, particularly the "intrahepatic cholestasis following abuse of powdered kratom" before posting more nonsense. it clearly documents a case of this exact problem effecting a young man in germany who had no previous disease, no other drug or alcohol use and no underlying issues. the kratom involved was tested for contaminants, and all other factors were ruled out. The same exact situation happened in my case where my kratom was tested, no other factors were present and I have no underlying health issues. It's plainly obvious that this can just happen sometimes. Nobody is claiming that it will happen to everyone though; simply that it can happen to some people, somtimes, and the cause is not known. stop taking it as an attack on yourselves, your lifestyles and your precious kratom. nobody could care less.

 

[weekend addiction]

Maybe I overreacted a bit. I've been a member of this forum for years and a lurker on other forums. This frequent volume of reports in a short time seems odd. But it could be possible that something has changed either with kratom supply or the users, there could be all kinds of things that could cause a spike in these reports. So forgive me everyone I got a little hasty. I am very worried about kratom's future legal status as it helps greatly with my anxiety and back pain. If it gets made illegal I will have a hard time getting any relief as I can't get a prescription for pain meds. So its a hot button issue for me.

So my apologies to anyone offended I will try and not jump to hasty conclusions in the future.

 

[Mam-I-Am]

That's totally cool of you weekend addiction. I really wish I could use kratom. I would like a substitute for my hydrocodone. I only take about 20-40 mgs per day, but I hate having to see my pain doctor monthly with his constant urine tests and other assorted BS that comes with pain management.

However, for some reason kratom makes me ill. After my first hepatic incident with kratom, I purchased from a different vendor thinking that it might have been a problem with that particular batch. However, I still got sick from the second vendor's product. I believe that most vendors purchase from the same source, so it might have ultimately come from the same batch. Who knows.

...and thanks samsaverger for your research. How are you feeling?

 

[my3rdeye]

Also, if you really think that lawmakers are trolling bluelight looking for reports of kratom induced liver injuries so that they can ban it, go build yourself a tin-foil hat instead of whinging about it here. people posting shit on bluelight is not going to contribute to kratom being made illegal. It's already illegal in several countries, the DEA is already well aware of kratom along with every government on earth.
-------
Why would they need to search forums when they can create accounts and make up scare stories? You don't think the man is on these boards trying to influence opinion and cause hysteria? You actually believe all the negative trip reports are from real users?
I don't know if Kratom liver problems or not, but you are wise to be suspicious of those types of posts. Anyone can post anything on here, with varying motives, doesnt make it true. So yes someone with a 1000 posts saying something is more trustworthy than someone who made an account yesterday. Yes it's suspcious all these posts of liver damage are from greenlighters when the substance has been used for a long time.

 

[SideOrderOfOpiates]

While I wish I could say that it may have been an interaction with the steroids, my personal experience has proven otherwise. After reading stories about people swearing by kratom, some of whom used it daily for a year, I actually really bypassed what my body told me from my inception with this plant. After several days of using it three times a day, I began noticing that the whites of my eyes had a bit of yellow to them, the right side of my abdomen began to hurt, changes in my urine started to occur, and I hadn't produced a bowel movement since before I started taking it. After thinking that perhaps I could just resort to taking laxatives and hoping for the best with regard to the yellowing eyes, I noticed that the pain on my right side began to increase quite a bit. Around this time (about a week after using it three times a day), my stools began to become partially grey. Being the addict I am, I figured, "Okay, if they're only partially grey, maybe you're only partially into liver problems." With that mindset, I continued using daily for about a month. After about one month of using kratom, I noticed that my skin looked seriously grey, my eyes were seriously yellow, my abdomen was in the type of pain where I really should have seen a physician, and my stools had gone from partially questionably grey, to definitely and completely fucking clay coloured. I decided that I had better quit it with the denial before I did irreversible damage to the point where I could no longer take drugs, and I hid the kratom for about a month. During the month I had off of it, it became as clear as fucking day that with each day I was off the kratom, my system seemed to be functioning better. After about two weeks, my eyes started to look more vibrant, and the yellowing started to become almost unnoticeable. My stools still remained infrequent, but with each passing day, became less clay coloured. The pain in my side completely disappeared. That is, until I took kratom again several days ago, haha. Only one level teaspoon was enough to reignite the pain in my abdomen. The pain was much more faint this time around, but it was undoubtedly the same type of pain. While I don't regret the last time I used it (the buzz was nice, and the pain quickly subsided), I am beginning to regret ever trying kratom. I have had liver problems in the past, and while I have still been faithful to stopping every time I have noticed health problems, I haven't been able to bring myself to throw it out. The highs experienced with this drug are a dangerous door to open. This is definitely a drug that I am going to exercise more caution with than I would with heroin. If the damage became so apparent so quick, I can only imagine how devastating the effects could be when used frequently by someone whose body can't handle it.

 

[Blind Melon]

You need to stop using that Kratom immediately. Either, a) the batch is contaminated somehow, or b) you have some sort of allergy to the plant (which is totally possible, I've known people allergic to codeine and morphine based painkillers, the poor-fucks).

What you need to do is talk to you doctor. Get on an opiate painkiller that does not include any Aspirin/APAP/whatever. Demand a pure opiate pill, and explain to him your reasoning. It appears you're telling the truth so I cannot so it being a problem. OxyContin (if they still make it), Opana (OxyMorphone, if it's still made), Dilaudid (Hydromorphone), or Fentanyl would all help your pain and may not negatively impact your gut.

Also, I bet your opiates are making you constipated. You need to incorporate more fiber/vegetables into your diet, that or take some sort of supplement, because being way backed-up is both not healthy and uncomfortable.

Good Luck.

 

[edzeppelin]

I have been using kratom for about three years, with one year nearly daily sometimes multiple times. I usually take medium size amounts, around 3 - 5 grams, 1 to 3 times a day. There is a mild withdrawal which can be dealt with by tapering.
I have used 4 or 5 different varieties, and never noticed any negative effects until recently. It is a very sick feeling after dosing, which goes away for the most part until I redose. I have narrowed it down to one particular strain: Red Thai. It doesn't happen if I redose with Indo, Sumatran, or Kalimantan. I am unsure about Green Thai. I will report back after I experiment more. This has happened with two different vendors stock of this variety.
This variety has a very distinct, strong taste, and is definitely unique. If others who have had bad reactions could please post what variety it was sold as, perhaps it could be narrowed down.
I am seeing a doctor for unrelated reasons tomorrow. I will ask for liver enzyme tests. There may be something to this. Please keep an open mind. It may affect only certain users and not others. We need to methodically study this, because otherwise I consider Kratom to be very helpful to me.

 

[Mam-I-Am]

The first time I became ill from kratom was when I consumed ground premium bali from two separate vendors. The second time I became ill, I had consumed UEI capsules and bali tincture, both from the same vendor but different from the first vendor.

Also, I came to this site from a simple browser search. This site is open to the public for viewing. I saw that others had similar problems, and I wanted to contribute my experience. I assume the other "greenlighters" are here due to the same reason.

 

[Gordon]

I know a lady who took kratom for 5 months, when she tapered off and stopped she suffered horrible symptoms for 4 months non-stop, then depression for further 6 moths.. She had to go on antidepressants and time release dihydrocodeine. She never had depression problems before kratom, and her doctor said it was all related to the kratom because she had other patients experience the exact same symptoms. She used kratom to sleep as she use to work nights, she was't even an opiate addict and wasn't an old timer either. So I agree it's just bad if not worse as opiates. The only people who vouch for it are those who are still on kratom and never stayed clean from kratom for more then 4 months or so.

 

[Lady Codone]

Here's the thing about side effects: not everyone gets them.

Ever hear those drug commercials that say:
"New or worsening heart failure, tuberculosis and lymphoma have been reported in some patients taking _____ drug"?

Those side effects are rare but very real for the people who experienced them. Kratom has a long history of safe use in Asia, but that doesn't mean it's safe for everybody. Nothing is! Who's to say there isn't some contaminant in commercial kratom products here in the states?

The more likely scenario is that people react differently to drugs. There are plenty of things that can contribute to liver damage, such as acetaminophen, alcohol and viruses like Hepatitis B and C. A high-fat diet can lead to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, which is increasingly common. All drugs are processed by the liver. In some people, kratom might be the final straw that pushes them over the edge.

Listen to your body. If you have concerns, cut back, quit or see a doctor. Or all three

 

[Ziiirp]

I know a lady who took kratom for 5 months, when she tapered off and stopped she suffered horrible symptoms for 4 months non-stop, then depression for further 6 moths.. She had to go on antidepressants and time release dihydrocodeine. She never had depression problems before kratom, and her doctor said it was all related to the kratom because she had other patients experience the exact same symptoms. She used kratom to sleep as she use to work nights, she was't even an opiate addict and wasn't an old timer either. So I agree it's just bad if not worse as opiates. The only people who vouch for it are those who are still on kratom and never stayed clean from kratom for more then 4 months or so.

Have you been told this vague information first hand or did an opioid substitution doctor (who sells Methadone/Suboxone, i.e. products that compete with Kratom on the market) tell you that ? Please do not spread propaganda by leaving out important facts : What dosage, what strain, which symptoms, which drug history had the addict before ? Thanks, buddy.

1. Kratom (any strain) is by no means a sleeping aid. If you abuse it that way, you have to take huge doses, because in low doses it will rather keep you awake. No wonder, that she had horrible WD, when she took big doses everyday (>5g). Or has she been using an extract which is not comparable to plain leaves because of the enhanced alkaloid content ? Why didn't she inform herself before treating the plant like it would be a vitamin ?

2. correlation != causation

3. What are those "horrible symptoms" you mentioned ? Please elaborate. Fairy-tale terms do not contribute to harm reduction.

Every substance/plant will fuck you up if you are not careful/intelligent enough to use the tool correctly. Kratom IS addictive, as is every other substance known to mankind. Overuse causes addiction. Addiction causes problems. So use moderately and do not blame the substance when you feel miserably in WD. Thank you.

On topic : I am sure that certain strains and/or the pesticidals on it can cause acute liver damage if not cleansed. This info is important but should honestly be general knowledge to anyone considering theirself remotely responsible-minded (i.e. every adult person). As with every plant material, you need to wash it carefully before further processing.