4C-D (Ariadne)

[Gregorio888]

Hey everybody.

I've been lurking BL for something like 15 years, but never felt I had info to contribute, or questions which weren't already answered but I think I've found one!

Since this is my first post, a quick background (feel free to skip this paragraph.) I'm a 34 yo male. I have a BS in psychology (where I didn't try at all, no idea how I passed.) After that I worked with large (think 6'5" 300 pound) violent special needs "kids" (age 14-22) for a long time. It was insane, but I actually enjoyed it despite being sent to the workman's comp Doctor at least 15 times from various injuries. I then decided I wanted a career that could make at least 6 figures a year, and not a dead end job with no advancement. Spent 3 years taking community college classes for prerequisites and was accepted to nursing school. In case anyone thinks being a RN isn't a serious job I can tell you about it. In many ways RN's are the MD's of 20-30 years ago, and we stay with our patients, not another floor spending the whole day on the computer (we only have to spend 1/3 of our time on the computer charting , I'm not knocking MD's by any means, their jobs are insane and I'd never want to be a MD, I'm just saying that becoming a RN, at least in California, is extremely difficult, and the work itself is often extremely complex and fast paced depending on speciality.) I've finished school, and within a month I'll be taking the licensing exam. I hope to work in psychiatry because one, I'm not afraid of giant dangerous people (most psych patients are nothing like that, but it is a small percentage), and because of the severe anxiety, moderate-severe depression, and at times severe addictions I've had in my own life. Importantly for BL, I've spent tons of time studying (as in actually studying and reading) and also trying different drugs, I've beaten addictions to things like mild opioids and strong benzos, but I've never beaten my addiction to trying new substances, so I'm up to 115 different drugs tried at least once, with another 7 or 8 in my stash I haven't gotten too yet, lol.



Now, for the fun. I recently saw this drug 4C-D (Ariadne) on two different vendor's sites, but have found almost no information anywhere. There's a very small article on wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariadne_(psychedelic)
(Apologies, I wanted to post the image of the molecule but I'm too stupid to figure it out, lol, but it is on the wikipedia page)

Apparently it is in PiHKAL briefly, with Shulgin taking it as high as 32 mg, describing that is "produces psychedelia at a bare threshold" I can't find any other account of its actual use by a human.

Further down the wiki page it says scientists have been trying it in rats, and that it seems to be more of an MDMA type drug than a psychedelic (rats produced to recognize MDMA recognize 4C-D, hardly proof, but it's something to consider that Shulgin just way underdosed it.) Dosages given to the rats were roughly equivalent to 100mg of MDMA in a human.

So, that's it. That is ALL I can find online about it. Does anyone know of an area that has any information on this drug? Has anyone actually tried it? Can those pharmacologists and chemists out there much smarter than me speculate on activity, dosage, duration, toxicity or any other dangers? Or is it probably an inactive scam of a chemical. It's not super expensive and I'm thinking of grabbing a gram incase it disappears quickly, but no way will I even start allergy testing it until there's a lot more information out there. So if anyone has any please share! And if someone smarter than me posts the picture of the molecule that'd be great, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Ok, 1st post complete, go easy on me for at least my first few posts : ) Stay safe and have fun everyone out there. Peace

 

[clubcard]

Overlay with 5-MeO-7-Me AET and it becomes apparent that it is VERY likely to substitute. It's MAOI activity may be an issue and there are better alternatives that require much less work. m-Me aminorex is MDMA-like, for examples. From the styrene or benzaldehyde are dozens of routes (but KOCN isn't among them).

 

[Gregorio888]

Slightly over my head but you're basically saying it IS likely to have MDMA like effects, but may have possibly dangerous MAOi activity, and that it's synthesis is difficult vs others? (I'm no chemist so not a concern of mine, unless it means some crappy lab tried to make it and screwed it up...) I can't tell you why they went with this one then, if there are easier substitutes to make, if it is indeed legit, though so far the vendor has been good with me on a couple orders, and I've seen it on one other vendor's site who I believe is considered legit. Anyway thanks for the info, if anyone has more it'd be appreciated, thanks everyone.

PS I hope this was the right sub-forum, since I didn't know if it is a psychedelic, entactogen, or toxic piece of nonsense or what, and because it's so new from what I can find. Feel free to move if I got it wrong Mods, thanks
Peace

 

[clubcard]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-Methyl-α-ethyltryptamine

It overlays the above exactly. Now, the more observant will have spotted that both compounds are chiral and we know that in both cases, the enantiomers each have quite different actions. Safe to say nobody is offering the resolved isomers but from samples I tried, the (S) isomers of the PEAs have no 5HT2 affinity but do interact with the VMAT-2 transport. I haven't tried resolved 5-MeO-7-Me AET but the (R) isomer of AMT is APB-like (MDMA 'lite') but the (R) isomer of 7-Me AMT is more or less indistinguishable from MDMA. Of course, the indole is pricey and the resolution is bulky so NOBODY is going to be selling it as MDMA given that the manufacture is quite hard.

If you really want an MDMA alternative, m-Me Aminorex is it.... but the KOCN cyclization doesn't work so good luck with the BrCN or NaHNCN required.

 

[Gregorio888]

Thanks again for the reply. I wish I knew a lot more chemistry and pharmacology, but I'm basically following what you're saying. It's fairly cheap and so new I think I may pick a gram up of for curiosities sake more than anything. Though I won't be touching it until some real data comes in about its use by others, and any dangers beyond the typical MDMA dangers of overheating, serotonin depletion, etc. If anyone knows something I'd certainly like to hear, I wish I had some knowledge to contribute, but in this matter I don't.

I did find one more human trial of a dose about double that of Shulgin's dose, though still smaller than the dose required by the lab rats to react as if it were MDMA. I found it on a post on reddit, who got it from another forum. And was posted not by the person who trialed it, but someone else. So take it for what it's worth since it's about 5th hand information now, lol. The report seems credible, but I have no way of actually knowing that for sure. I've copy pasted the report below. Thanks Club for the info, and anyone else who's knowledgable enough to speculate on its effects, dangers, etc. Here is the trip report I found. Again, IF this is similar to MDMA, the trial in this report is still low too low for the theoretical entactogenic effects. So, this report won't give nearly the full picture of 4C-Ds' potential or lack of potential. Later all



"ARIADNE: first encounter with an exotic ladyDose: 62.5 mg of the hydrochloride salt.


[-01:15] ARIADNE is dissolved in a glass of orange juice. I’m taken over by the usual fear: is this ARIADNE or DOM? Perhaps I should try to solve this problem… Just to make sure, I dissolve the dosage in 110 mL juice and drink about 10 mL. In case it is DOM, it will nice as well. If not, I’ll drink the rest in an hour.

[00:00] The first fifteen minutes felt as if a super-DOB was taking control, but after that, nothing. I drink the rest of the glass and try to study somewhat while listening to the Firebird.

[01:00] I can clearly feel some effects. My mental condition has changed and it has become very easy to live myself into the music. Colors have become richer but distortions in the visual field remain fairly limited.

[01:30] Especially on the mental side, effects have noticeably increased the last half hour. The soft color enhancement and the mild breathing of objects form a harmonious theater for the mental +2. I’m invited by the music – first by Khachaturian and subsequently by Camille Saint-Sa?ns – to close my eyes and enjoy their masterpieces. Generally, this compound has a friendly character; she allows to see the beauty of the things surrounding me and shows how to enjoy them.

[02:00] I’ve smoked my pipe with – what else? – vanilla tobacco. Buzzzz… I have a funny feeling in my head and can some spot some CEVs around the corner. Sadly enough, they remain around the corner. I think it requires an additional 10 or 20 mg to get more out of it.

[03:00] The psychedelic characteristics are already fading away. ARIADNE has never reached the intensity of 4C-DOB at a similar dose. On the other hand, both compounds share the same butanamineness. My body is at +1 and my mind is hovering around +1.75, the traditional BSV (butanamine standard value). I’m looking forward to repeat the experiment with an additional 10 or 20 mg. The butanamine character is friendly, listening to music and reading are enjoyable, but studying remains as much of a punishment as it used to be.

[04:45] Reading goes easier, as my concentration remains more focused on the subject. On the other hand, I don’t have the impression that I acquire additional insight.

[06:45] Time to go watch a movie with some friends. At this time, the psychedelic effects are mostly gone. Watching “Long Weekend” was an interesting experience. I was completely absorbed by the atmosphere of the movie.

[12:45] Very tired… Time to sleep.

[20:45] I feel rather fit when waking up. There are no signs of residual activity. I seem to be completely back to baseline. I continue reading the book, but have the usual difficulties of keeping focused on the subject. Next time, let us take some more."

 

[cosmic charlie]

Thanks for sharing, sounds like you had an interesting experience. Hopefully more reports keep coming in. It definetly has my interest, seems like a pleasant psychedelic. Guess we will wait and see, looks promising.

 

[Gregorio888]

Hey, Muddy

If you read more of what I wrote in the first post and the report itself, I make it clear it isn't my experience. That report was posted on reddit, by a guy copying it from an unnamed different forum, who was posting for a different person, so its veracity is hardly confirmed, though I don't see why someone would fake a mediocre report on this so I'm tending to believe it. Shulgin (its #8 in PiHKAL fwiw, though he doesn't talk about it much) never went past about 32 mgs, and reported just minor threshold affects and then stopped further use. In this non referenced report above, the person took 62 mgs in orange juice, 10mgs to start, the rest 1 hour later. And the only other information I can find (it's on wikipedia and is referenced) is that rats bread to distinguish MDMA reacted to this substance at what would translate to an approximate human dose of 100mg. So, we have an n=2 for humans, who got very mild psychedelic effects (which they were expecting, they didn't seem to be expecting entactogenic effects, so placebo may have played some role in their experience.) And the "people" (MDMA discriminating rats) reacted as if it was similar to MDMA starting at about 100mg MDMA (for a human dose obviously.) This was just one study, but at least it was a study. So nothing concrete on this substance can really be said as far as I can tell. This may just give mild psychedelic or entactogenic effects at any dose. It may be a more psychedelic version of MDMA. It may be mild and the cause alzeimers in a year for all I know.

Clubcard posted some info about its similarity with another chemical (which I've certainly never heard of, but I can see what club is saying about them having a similar structure even with their differences) that has MDMA like effects, though thought it wouldn't be as good as other MDMA replacements if thats what you're aiming for. So at this point we don't know whether it's a weak substitute at best, an amazing substance at higher doses with psychedelic effects, entactogenic effects, or both, (I would guess it's not amazing, though I hope I'm wrong.) Club also mentioned that it likely has different effects from the different enantiomers. Most importantly he stated it could serve as a MAOI. If it turns out to be a serotonin releaser at higher doses AND have irreversible MAOI-A effects it could be quite dangerous.

I suppose the other "experience" report I've seen is with communication with a vendor who said that "plants report a strong experience at 100mg and higher." First, yes referring to it as "plant food" is incredibly dumb and annoying, but what he said means others may have tried it, and decided it is worthwhile to sell for people to use at 100 mgs and up. Of course, he could just be referencing the study on rats, and he could just be trying to talk me into a sale of a sub-par chemical. He said an NMR had been performed to confirm its identity, I don't know testing well enough to know if a NMR gives enough information to 100% identify a chemical or not, and of course he could just be lying, but to his credit he has always been honest with me. Including cancelling a pre-order I had made, after the chemical failed testing, and was not the chemical that was sold to him, and then negotiated a generous "trade" with me for other chems, which have always been quality. (I've made three purchases from this vendor and received quality products, and just had that one hiccup, which the vendor caught before it was shipped and made it right with a generous amount of other chems I was interested in.)

So, I guess my point is, I'd say keep hopes low for now, it's more of just an interest to me than something I'm hoping to get f'ed up on. And if you find some, be extremely careful, titrate very slowly, or better yet wait for more information from people who have no qualms about eating high doses of barely tested chemicals. It also just hit me in the head that, molecularly, it is basically DOM with the alpha-methyl group switched to an alpha-ethyl group, so just one carbon different from DOM, but with seemingly VERY different effects so that 1 carbon makes a big difference in who knows how many ways (well maybe someone out there does know how changing the alpha methyl to an alpha ethyl tends to affect these types of chemicals.

If I find more info I will post it, and anyone with info or educated speculation please post it. Otherwise, the thread can die out, though I hope this chem garnishes interest and research is done to try to figure out its value if any. Stay safe everyone! Later

 

[Pfafffed]

I'm not going to lie, I'm more than a little curious about this one as well. The thing is, I despise MDMA. On the other hand, my one experience with AET (misrepresented as MDMA) was beatific. I'm rather leery of pushing the envelope on dosage of a phenethylamine, too. Most tryptamines have excellent safety profiles; PEAS aren't as reliable, and 5-MeO-7-Me-AET is reputed to be an MAOi (for what it's worth.) I don't want to be a Guinea pig for what may just be another PMA

 

[atara]

AFAIK, no 2-methoxyphenethylamine has pharmacologically relevant SERT affinity -- the 2-MeO lies out of plane, whereas the indole is in the plane. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "MDMA-like" effects of the 4C drugs are likely mediated by 5ht1a affinity, cf. para-fluorophenylpiperazine. Consistent with this hypothesis, 4C drugs were found to be mildly psychedelic and euphoric, but to lack stimulation, when tested by amateur chemists in The Entheogen Review:

Butanamines are generally not considered to be visionary. However, one of my fellow testing bunnies found out that things are not always as one might think?

At 11:00 pm on November 1, 2003, 80 mg of white crystals of 1-(4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxyphenyl)-2-butanamine (4CDOB) were easily dissolved in a glass of water. The taste was bitter. My body weight is ?75 kg. There was an alert after 15 minutes: a tingling in the extremities of my toes and fingers.

Over the next 30 minutes, more effects started to manifest. A discordance between my mind and speech occurred. Although I had phrases in my mind ready to be verbalized, it became difficult to say these phrases. Gradually, the formation of phrases in my mind became difficult as well, making it hard to express myself. I kept my sentences short. It wasn?t that my mind felt lazy; it was more unable to focus on verbal activity. There was also some body tension. At the beginning of the alert, my lower legs and my head began to feel heavy. Increasingly, a certain body tension was noticeable, which was most expressed in the region of the popliteal space and the maxillary joints. The tension actually felt pleasant.

At about 12:00 am, the effects became more pronounced. Speaking was very difficult, and my body felt bloated. I had to sit or lie down. Closed-eye visuals (CEV) started to emerge. In the beginning, there were a few scintillating neon-blue stars on a black background. I recognized them from my mescaline adventures. (I usually refer to these as ?mescaline spots,? as they always occur when I take mescaline.) These shifted into larger spots, which continuously changed color and shape. The edges of my vision field (with eyes closed) were weakly illuminated, as if there was a light shining behind a black screen producing fluorescent edges.

At 12:15 am the CEV became very strong. However, it was impossible to interact with them. They were 100% influenced
by the music that was being played. There had been a little bit of Bach and some Chopin. Every song had its own visuals, every new rhythm changed something about them. A fellow butanaminist made me listen to a specific electronic music song. I liked it and, based on the perceived visuals, my doped brain liked it as well. At a point when the music suddenly stopped, the visuals completely disappeared! There was nothing but pure blackness. A new song was then played, and the visuals came right back. Phew!

Also around 12:15 am, open-eye visuals (OEV) manifested themselves clearly. These effects were very different from those perceived under the influence of other substances tested so far. My poster of Lang?s movie Metropolis came alive. Yes, Maria was breathing and her cheek moved. When I lay down on the bed, I noticed that the wooden balks supporting the ceiling were rippled. The way in which they were rippled was markedly different from how I see them under the influence of mescaline or psilocybin-containing mushrooms. Using either of these, I see the balks completely rippled, forming many short waves. However, with 4C-DOB, the waves were long?very long?and moving slowly. One might want to say they were ?milder waves,? but this would
be a bad way to describe them. At least, it didn?t feel as though they were milder. Rather, it almost seemed as though the butanamine side-chain of the molecule was determining the effect: longer side-chain, longer visual waves. Also, colors appeared much brighter than they usually do.

The trip peaked between 1:00 am and 1:30 am. There were many CEV and OEV, still determined by the music that was being played at the time. Most of the CEV were abstract. During this point of maximum effect, it was very difficult to move around much. An increasing body load was noticed. Spasms in the lower leg (around the knee) and some jaw-clenching were felt. However, these effects did not have a negative impact on the experience?they actually felt rather enjoyable.

The intensity of the visuals decreased very rapidly. By 3:00 am, there were only a few CEV noticeable. There was still a heavy body load. Around 4:30 am to 5:00 am, I had the impression that the trip was over. There were no more CEV and the body tension was decreasing. However, I must have been
wrong about this ?ending? of the experience, as when the light was turned on, my perception of colors was still not normal and objects seemed to wiggle a bit. Moreover, when I drank a cup of coffee sometime between 7:00 am and 8:00 am, the effects returned somewhat. My head felt heavy again, colors became a bit brighter, and there were again a few closed-eye visuals. It must have been around 10:00 am before I was completely back to baseline.

(Sorry, no file attachments allowed, and the last time I linked it, the link died.)

 

[Pfafffed]

AFAIK, no 2-methoxyphenethylamine has pharmacologically relevant SERT affinity -- the 2-MeO lies out of plane, whereas the indole is in the plane. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "MDMA-like" effects of the 4C drugs are likely mediated by 5ht1a affinity, cf. para-fluorophenylpiperazine. Consistent with this hypothesis, 4C drugs were found to be mildly psychedelic and euphoric, but to lack stimulation, when tested by amateur chemists in The Entheogen Review:

the last time I linked it

Good finds! I do seem to have an appreciation for a lot of 5-HT1a agonists. I certainly find mescaline, 2C-T-2, 5-MeO-MiPT, and aET to be empathogenic. That said, I don't find 5-HO-DMT, 4-HO-DMT, DiPT, yohimbine, or 2C-E to be particularly empathogenic. Pharmacology is complex, and I don't have a good understanding of their various affinities and overall potency. My eyes glaze over whenever I hear about ki values. Still, I find both MiPT and 4-HO/AcO-MiPT to empathogenic in much the same way as 5-MeO-MiPT, but haven't found any publications that suggest they have much of a 5-HT1a affinity, which is odd.

I've long wanted to settle this by trying buspirone and/or 4C-T-2 to get a baseline for what a non-psychedelic 5-HT1a agonist feels like. It looks like 4C-D might (might) offer something comparable.

https://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/529023-4c-t-2

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/4C-T-2

 

[Hodor]

In his reports, Shulgin describes MBDB ("4C-MDMA", if you will) as producing a strong sense of relaxation that is profoundly euphoric, but does not provide you with energy the same way that MDMA does. This sounds like the reports of some of the more selective serotonin releasing agents like MDAI simply leaving you "couch-locked" with serotonergic contentment unless you add a dopaminergic/noradrenergic stimulant. It also seems to produce very little in the way of visuals.

It would be interesting to know if 4C-D at least posesses some activity as a serotonin releasing agent, or some affinity for 5HT2a to act as a "quasi-empathogen" ? la 2C-B... but if it's only active at 5ht1a that kind of sounds like a dud.

 

[clubcard]

Sounds like 7-Me AMT would be popular. For me, AMT lasts too long and is too stimulation, 7-Me AMT has that VMAT activity going on so the serotonin release makes it more manageable (less agitation) and offers the body a nice sacrificial moiety.

 

[Dresden]

I would classify Ariadne (4C-D) as 'schwag.'

 

[atara]

Actually Wiki says 4C-T-2 is a 5-ht2b agonist. That's interesting, I've heard that empathogenic qualities can be related to that receptor, but it is usually thought of as an antitarget because of its effects on heart valves. It also hits beta-2 which activates the fight-or-flight response.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

AMT is a bit of an oddball one, a strong, long acting stimulant, but with enough serotonergic effects (presumably the cause given similarity to other such agents) to leave one pretty effectively couch-locked at higher doses.

Got woken up once in the middle of a forest by some hiker, wondering if I was still alive, after spending quite a long time out picking wild mushrooms for when I eventually got back home, having been out since first light, possibly wondering if I'd poisoned myself (not that most mycotoxins are so rapid acting as to leave one incapacitated within a few hours, at least, not those, muscarine from Inocybes, some Mycena excluded, found in these parts. And not that I ever have, with one regrettable experiment in eating the young egg stage of stinkhorns excluded, but that was an obvious idiosyncratic reaction, as others eat them, either that or I prepared the things wrong. But never actually suffered due to eating the wrong species)

Can't remember the dose, but a couple of hundred mg intranasally, some orally, at high doses AMT can be really sedating.

 

[clubcard]

AMT is a bit of an oddball one, a strong, long acting stimulant, but with enough serotonergic effects (presumably the cause given similarity to other such agents) to leave one pretty effectively couch-locked at higher doses.

Got woken up once in the middle of a forest by some hiker, wondering if I was still alive, after spending quite a long time out picking wild mushrooms for when I eventually got back home, having been out since first light, possibly wondering if I'd poisoned myself (not that most mycotoxins are so rapid acting as to leave one incapacitated within a few hours, at least, not those, muscarine from Inocybes, some Mycena excluded, found in these parts. And not that I ever have, with one regrettable experiment in eating the young egg stage of stinkhorns excluded, but that was an obvious idiosyncratic reaction, as others eat them, either that or I prepared the things wrong. But never actually suffered due to eating the wrong species)

Can't remember the dose, but a couple of hundred mg intranasally, some orally, at high doses AMT can be really sedating.

It has a chiral carbon - the 2 isomers display totally different activity. I think I used camphor-10-sulfonic acid.. or rather told someone else to do it.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

The AMT in question that experience was caused by, I didn't actually check it with a polariscope for optical rotation, but made the rather quick and hasty, but logically, also most probable conclusion that since it came from an RC vendor, it was most unlikely to have been selectively produced via a chiral synthetic route, and then sold as just 'AMT', since the additional complexity would guarantee that any vendor would actually SELL the isomers as enantiopure fractions, for a higher price than the racemate. I don't doubt for a moment, since this was not the case, and it was sold under simply the acronym, and the chemical nomenclature, and not particularly expensive either, that it was racemic.

If I had been synthesizing it myself, I might have gone to the additional effort to resolve the enantiomers, but for a few grams of AMT base from an RC site, that was, overall, obtained for a specific purpose, namely, the choice of entactogen-empathogen suited for a not particularly prosocially inclined, by nature, kanner's autie, who doesn't feel completely at ease with some of the things MDxx forces upon me, and indeed makes things FEEL forced and artificial, hollow and in a way that to an NT, would probably not be something I could explain, short of to say that, without insult intended to NTs, a pill that in many ways TURNS me into something whilst not one, at least given a paint job of NTism for the day.

There are forced, fake senses to that, that don't sit well with me, but I had taken AMT in the spirit of exploration enough times previously, to get a feel for it's character, and that with the combination of tried-and-true, card-carrying psychedelic with entactogenic effects and throw in some stimulant effects to make it a little easier to get out of bed before dawn and walk across town to a favourite forest that I've haunted since childhood, picking mushrooms, both to eat, and to harvest the vast loads of fly agaric that I crop reliably, year in, year out, from an attached golf course, with silver birch trees as thick as stink on shit and common as bastard, thieving, cowardice and lies on a squad of the filth.

And they've evidently done their delicate symbiotic thing, and formed a healthy network of mycorrhizae, because the only actual poor harvests I recall, a poor harvest in that context meaning 'shopping bags rather than heavy-duty black garbage sacks' have been due to my laxity in actually getting out there and walking around simultaneously focusing on both scanning the ground for Amanitas and any edible species of other varieties to be had, like the charcoal-burners that are common in the area (Russula cyanoxantha), or brown birch boletes (Suillus spp.), and of the species with a fair chance of being had from the forest in question, at least two of my favourite edible wild fungi of all of them I've tasted so far, Macrolepiota procera (parasol mushroom, gets big, tall and has a lovely meaty, salty flavour once fried in butter) and sulfur polypore (Laetiporus spp. most commonly L.sulfureus) which grows on tree biomass, and sometimes requires taking a running jump to try and grab some and rip off as much as possible, to take home, and slice the young, delicate and tender fruitbodies into strips, and dip them in eggy-bread batter to make fritters once deep-fried. Got a nice sourish kind of taste to them, some authorities reccomend that they be soaked in water for a night to leach this out, but I find it is one of the more endearing culinary qualities to sulfur shelf fritters as a tasty snack, so bugger leaching them)

That all of course, takes a fair bit of effort while also being on constant alert for a flying golf ball to the bonce, or else jumped up poncy arrogant, snot-nosed rich brat shithead golfers with a chip on their shoulder and a dire need for a molten tungsten enema and a quick shove out of a boat positioned over one of the deep oceanic trenches.

Whilst tripping your fucking balls off on a couple of hundred mg of AMT, mixed oral and nasal routes, and low dose arylcyclohexylamines, for the specific aim, combining the two, of long, solo hikes in a comfortable environment, where I could go out and spend the physical time taken in the walking, the picking tasty fungi, and occasionally having to snark off at golfers with an arsehole for a mouth and a bollock-bereft withered scrotum for a cerebral cortex when they see it as their divine right to sole use of the public space, without some soddin' pleb out there to pick mushrooms they could have had fun smashing with their golf clubs, and gobbing off or acting aggressive, at worse, in a few cases where you get one who's a real A-grade dick.

But thankfully, not needed during the really high dose AMT trips, to work on my PTSD, in solo inwardly-focused meditative self-examination and self-counselling. Only interaction I recall was the once, within the forest itself, where another walker had found me, at the base of a big old beech tree, on a bed of soft, dry himalayan balsam squashed, flattened stems, with the flowering stands of it forming a nice little glade that I rather like for it's character, and for the parasol mushrooms I often find there after worming my way through the dense growth and poking around in the saprobe-heaven that lies behind it, of damp leaf-litter and rotting balsam bits, wood, etc.

And he only came up because he had seen me, lying down, with my eyes closed, curled up in a ball in that glade, under the tree , and until told that I was in fact, absolutely fine, and it was just the AMT having somewhat of a paradoxical sedating, couchlock type effect despite it's strong stimulant push, he was genuinely concerned, lest I had suffered some form of harm and either been incapacitated or died, and was content for us to wish each other well and for him to go back to his walk, and me to go back to my nap after sparking a bong or two or three or...

Even before any weed, and using only a really low dose of MXE or 4-MeO/3-MeO-PCP/3-OH-PCP (a small bump up each nostril for MXE or the methoxy-PCP analogs, after I'd been hiking and mushroom foraging for a fair time, from shortly before dawn, setting off a fair while before that, and not stopping entirely until it was again too dark to see any fungus without tripping over it, or bioluminescence, by about late mid-afternoon, that had taken a fair bit out of me, since I'd had little to eat, and only then decided to stop and break out the snacks, rather than just keeping hydrated, to keep me on my feet enough to decide when and where to lie down somewhere soft and dry and comfortable, with a private space obviously there to be claimed for an individual wanting to do so, to just whip my pack off, and after rolling up the heavy leather trenchcoat I'd been wearing, drape an arm over the pack for comfortability and security of property both in one, and using the trench as a pillow to just down mushroom-sacks and take an impromptu nap, entered into surprisingly gently and easily, despite that stimulant effect, when it decided it was going to couchlock me whether or not there was a couch in the vicinity, and that a bed of himalayan balsam dry stems and the growing flowers en masse forming an enclosure to the little private-ish glade was just as good as a bed, to drift off in a deep, deep +++(+1/2), surrounded by the scent of their flowers, and a USB flash drive/portable stereo combination, loaded with a pre-chosen mix of favourite industrial, techmetal, djent and doom metal, plus some old classic rock favourites like Sabbath, on the headphones, maybe set and setting had something to do with it too, but it DEFINITELY had a hell of a couchlock effect going on there.

That day, the AMT wasn't going to take 'no' for an answer even if I had been inclined that way. And I'm as sure as I can be without testing, that it can only have been the racemic product given it was bought rather than made, and that RC vendors don't have my adventurousness or standards, wanting to make a quick buck, rather than having an innate love of all things chemistry (aside from the math, I'm dyscalculic, always have hated math always will. But being an autie, I reckon, gives me the sheer drive and force of will to bludgeon such disadvantages out of the way if they stand between me and getting up to whatever the flavour of the moment in terms of research and experiment, targeted syntheses when the twin speshul interests conspire with each other to meet and the inner, spazzier degree of speshul decides it's time to let it's hair down and come out to play and spend time with It's favourite form of art, with atoms and bonds as pigments, and borosilicate glassware and mag-stirring hotplates serving as brushes, tools of sculpture and the human psyche as canvas...dyscalculia just has to take a back seat and wait it's damnable turn, because innate ability or even not being stressed the hell out and not given a headache for a while after using mathematics might make it very difficult in that particular respect for me, but the rest, it is just so much a chemophile that 'sorry you suck at math, piss off' isn't something that'll get ought but short shrift. Dedication to the enjoyable aspects being stronger than loathing for and great difficulty with the math calculations requisite, so a balance ends up struck. Namely I keep at it, and just pop a dose of chlormethiazole and a morphine shot or a couple of 10mg IR oxy capsules up the nose to deal with it

Nature over nurture in that case, it's just...well...for want of a better explanation, what I DO. It's as much a part of me as the need to eat, drink, breathe, piss and shit. Unlikely original candidate for a chemist, quite probably, I've often thought, what with the dyscalculia being severe and never recognized until I knew to see it for what it was myself, and by then I was way out of my spesh school, and secondary ed. But thats auties for you, non-standard issue human wetware, with what more than occasionally can turn pretty freakish (in a good way though) and out there with what it decides is to be such a speshul interest.

Does what it does, and damned if it's going to let anything short of being melted alive, hit by a runaway drunk driver, lightening bolt get in the way of doin it. The particular software personalized edition running on this wetware has chosen, and it's edict is 'be a polymath, but with a particular bent for molecular bio, and pharmacology, as well as chemistry in it's synthetic aspects, followed by mycology, botany then history, archaeology, and an awful lot of other things involving the suffix '-ology'; and buggered if the rest of me gets a say in that, or if it did, that it'd not just fully agree in the first place

 

[Gregorio888]

Hey,
I apologize for the time I've been away from the thread (very busy lately), thank you anyone giving responses at least. I would prefer the conversation steered back towards 4C-D if possible, even if no one knows anything else concrete about it yet.

That said I did order a gram out of curiosity and its "exoticness" even if it ends up a dud (and was cheap imo. It is snail mail only from outside my country (USA), and with the holiday season I've no idea when it will make it, I hope within a week or two at most. (I ordered a month or so ago, so who knows really)

So at this point I have nothing to add, just a question. When it arrives I want to make sure it is what is claims to be, since it's so rare and apparently hard to make, I don't think reagents will help, and I'm not familiar with the exact differences between the NMS, LCMS, and GMCS, (I guess I know LCMS is for a liquid and GCMS for gasses? Ok I don't know I guess) nor any idea where I should be looking for some company that can supply whichever testing I need to confirm Identity and purity. Can anyone help me there? ( I hope asking for a testing center isn't against rules, sincere apologies if so, and I'll re-read the rules carefully)

Finally, after it arrives and I've confirmed it's identity and purity level (with some of your help I hope) I'd be willing to "donate" 100-200mgs to ONE person, I'd only give it to someone who's a PhD pharmacologist, or a PhD chemist with significant pharmacological knowledge, knows how to be safe (slow titration etc, and posts their results.) And I'm afraid within the USA only would make the most sense. Please don't start asking for the sample yet until you've helped me through what studies I need done to confirm identity and purity, which I'm sure will add a lot of time. And when we get to that stage anyone who "applies" for the donation, I'll scour your posts to make sure you're not BSing me with your knowledge, and your posts show significant knowledge and understanding of how to be safe, which is the point of this forum after all, lol.

Ok, one, not so quick brag, (followed by a paragraph aimed at prescribers of Epogen/Procrit, and Aranesp, a small group no doubt but maybe someone out there) I can't stop talking about it so sorry about bragging, since it's made me so excited ( this paragraph can totally be skipped if not interested) I know many if not most of you have PhDs and are MDs or whatever, but after 7 years of fighting I FINALLY, as of 10 days ago I'm a licensed RN which is quite exciting for me. It took 7 years because I was working when doing the prerequisites and could only take 2 night classes a semester. And the final year, has been me fighting with the BRN who rejected my application to take the NCLEX-RN, for a "missing passport photo" which if I gave you my log in info you could download yourself, the application was easy, only 3 pages, and shockingly, has an OBVIOUS passport photo. After getting rejected I had 10 different of my classmates scrutinize it for any kind of mistake I made, and 3 professors did the same. Everyone said it looked perfect, and just like theirs. When, I called the BRN (Board of registered nursing for those who don't know,) the person on the phone admitted they didn't understand why my application was denied, but all they could do was put in an :"inquiry" requiring 4 weeks minimum before calling back. I ended up getting rejected something like 7 or 8 total times. With nothing but bafflement from the women on the phone (who said they had no manager I could speak with, and all they could do was this inquiry once a month.) I've made TONS of mistakes in my life, but I made no mistake here. I also sent 5 more separate passport photos, from different companies, in multiple formats online to the add additional documents section, and physically mailed them in as well. Also, I sent multiple emails to EVERY department in the BRN, Zero responses, I had graduated December the 8th or 9th 2017, and I FINALLY got cleared to take the test in early November 2018, set the test date as early as I could, and somehow passed, and I'm now licensed as of 1 & 1/2 weeks ago, end of November less then 2 weeks from a full YEAR since graduation. I know many of you have more advanced degrees, but perhaps you can imagine the stress of that final year, just being strung, along month after month, being promised THEIR mistake would be fixed within 4 weeks, and then I'd get denied for the same "missing passport photo" (all 5 I'd given them by the end of it all, that were clearly visible.) So that's all /brag.

​(hey, this is an edit, I won't delete the below paragraph, just in case someone wants to read what a typically normal person is like when on a high dose of 6-APB, I was pretty geeked out when I wrote it, and read one newspaper article (the worst source for science, seriously, even if a reputable newspaper, the authors aren't scientists, and mis-interpret a lot, and have their own agendas, when the truth is never that easy, which I knew, but I still jumped to conclusions, most of them wrong, cause I was f'ed up.) I spoke with my dad about the article today, and after reading it he said it was basically 95% bullshit. I also found out, that my dad, a pretty humble, calm, guy, described himself as the worlds leading expert on the subject, which is cool to discover you have a have a worlds leading expert of anything in your family. The parts that are correct are that current prescribing criteria aren't what they should be, and that marketers/owners of the company have, completely unethically, pushed MD's and dialysis RN's to overprescribe, making the company money, helping some patients, and hurting many others. So yeah, 90-95% maybe more, of the below paragraph is WRONG, don't take any of it at its word. I want this thread to be about 4C-D, though it's difficult when no one has any yet. If you're interested about any of the (mostly wrong) info below and it's a quick question I'll give a quick answer after clarifying things with my dad, when I'm not f'd up, and if you want to know about the subject in more detail, please start a new thread, point me to it and I'll give a more detailed response after checking I've got things right with my Dad, Peace for now!)
(this final paragraph is a rant, only applicable to MDs prescribing Epogen/Procrit(erythropoietin) and/or Aranesp (darbepoetin alfa), which may be no one, but I still feel it has to be said in case any of you Drs are out there)
So, to any MD's out there who work with patients on hemodialysis, or some cancer patients. I don't know this from school, but, and this isn't a brag it's a warning, my dad and his team of 4 or 5 other Micro/molecular biologists, were the creators of Epogen and Aranesp. They did extensive testing, back in the 80s (with MD's and RN's help of course.) The warning is current guidelines for its dosage IS WRONG, and for MOST cancer patients ARE WRONG. Don't aim for a 42 HCT, aim for low 30s to mid 30s at MOST. And it shouldn't be used for all but only a tiny percentage of cancer patients at all (it likely increases tumor growth speed.) So, I don't know all the exact #s, but in some light my Dads a hero having saved 10-100s of millions of lives (don't really know the number). But the company, originally owned by wealthy, ethical scientist, went corporate. And they then immediately started pushing MDs to aim for 42 HCT, with bullshit studies. And used more in cancers where 95% of the time is shouldn't be used at all. All of the original scientists, like my dad, screamed at the new bosses/owners, warning them they have CLEAR data that trying for 42% HCT, (which I realize is typically a normal HCT) WILL KILL PEOPLE, something like 10s to low hundreds of thousands of lives needlessly killed PER YEAR now, because of this unethical prescribing, pushed by the "new owners/businessmen scum." Everyone who made the 2 drugs screamed and raged at the owners until either 'forced retirement" or quit in their own in protest. On the whole are the drugs good? Of course, millions of lives saved, but 10s to low hundred thousands of lives killed per year pointlessly, just so the company can make a few hundred million more $s per year more (the combined drugs still pull 5 Billion a year, I think the company, which has many more drugs now, can live with say 4.7 billion dollars per year from these 2 drugs. I know they have studies they "bought" to get the FDA to allow the new prescribing. But, I'm sorry I don't have access currently, look at the studies from the 80s, when the company was owned by an ethical scientist, not by a corporation who doesn't care of a few extra couple ten's of thousand of fatalities, if it makes them extra money. ( Money NEEDED, so the CEO could have TWO private jets on the companies dime) can't get journal articles currently, but don't look at the studies from the 80s as "worse" then studies in the 2000s, just because they're older, they were studies performed ethically, and if there's new data proving I'm wrong, I'd like to see the article if you don't mind providing them in someway. I'm sure if you listen to me you'll get a LOT of pushback, but come armed with older, but much higher quality studies, and hopefully you can win the battle with your superiors (or at least know you did what you could before prescribing a potentially fatal overdose.) I just hate the idea of my dads drugs needlessly killing so many people, and I know he's disgusted/saddened by it (and as a PhD molecular biologist, who was "team leader" I feel he knows the drugs very well, lol) Not sure this paragraph will reach anyone who can start change, but it would be great if even 1 was saved from it (no idea how many MD's will be reading this thread, if any) Ok, that's my rant, not at MD's/ but at my dads former company lying about the best way to use them just for more money.

Sorry, I asked to steer to the conversation back to 4C-D and then ended with two random tangents, but yeah if anyone can point me to what tests I need to do and where to confirm identity of the 4C-D I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks all, stay healthy

 

[S.J.B.]

Ok, one, not so quick brag, (followed by a paragraph aimed at prescribers of Epogen/Procrit, and Aranesp, a small group no doubt but maybe someone out there) I can't stop talking about it so sorry about bragging, since it's made me so excited ( this paragraph can totally be skipped if not interested) I know many if not most of you have PhDs and are MDs or whatever, but after 7 years of fighting I FINALLY, as of 10 days ago I'm a licensed RN which is quite exciting for me. It took 7 years because I was working when doing the prerequisites and could only take 2 night classes a semester. And the final year, has been me fighting with the BRN who rejected my application to take the NCLEX-RN, for a "missing passport photo" which if I gave you my log in info you could download yourself, the application was easy, only 3 pages, and shockingly, has an OBVIOUS passport photo. After getting rejected I had 10 different of my classmates scrutinize it for any kind of mistake I made, and 3 professors did the same. Everyone said it looked perfect, and just like theirs. When, I called the BRN (Board of registered nursing for those who don't know,) the person on the phone admitted they didn't understand why my application was denied, but all they could do was put in an :"inquiry" requiring 4 weeks minimum before calling back. I ended up getting rejected something like 7 or 8 total times. With nothing but bafflement from the women on the phone (who said they had no manager I could speak with, and all they could do was this inquiry once a month.) I've made TONS of mistakes in my life, but I made no mistake here. I also sent 5 more separate passport photos, from different companies, in multiple formats online to the add additional documents section, and physically mailed them in as well. Also, I sent multiple emails to EVERY department in the BRN, Zero responses, I had graduated December the 8th or 9th 2017, and I FINALLY got cleared to take the test in early November 2018, set the test date as early as I could, and somehow passed, and I'm now licensed as of 1 & 1/2 weeks ago, end of November less then 2 weeks from a full YEAR since graduation. I know many of you have more advanced degrees, but perhaps you can imagine the stress of that final year, just being strung, along month after month, being promised THEIR mistake would be fixed within 4 weeks, and then I'd get denied for the same "missing passport photo" (all 5 I'd given them by the end of it all, that were clearly visible.) So that's all /brag.

Congrats! It sounds like it was a real pain dealing with the bureaucracy. I'm glad you got it sorted out.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Congratulations

Effort well fought and well rewarded.

I would raise a glass to you, but I do not drink wine, I cannot bear the stench of them, and I've no beer.

So I shall pop a can of coke and shoot 500mg morphine IM plus 20mg oxycodone nasally, to celebrate your success, and pop a few chlormethiazole caps, since technically it is a derivative of a compound possessed of an alcoholic moiety