• H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist | cdin | Lil'LinaptkSix

12 days clean and just texted my dealer....

somni i'm so sorry you're struggling. are you in a situation where you can something from a doctor to help you sleep? sleep was always such a massive thing making it hard for me to stop, even back in the day when i was just trying to quit weed. i was lucky in rehab i got zopis cos i'd brought in a recent script so they had to give it to me, even then they wouldn't give it me too often. personally, persistent lack of sleep will drive me to do literally anything. luckily until recently when i've been waking up early and through the night, which is exhausting now, my sleep has been good since i just decided to face some pain and force myself not to use sleeping pills for a week. that was over 3 months clean though, so i know i had it easier than you at 12 days in.

CATINTHEHAT i would be interested to know why you think NA can actively hinder people? what little research there is is positive. it couldn't get me clean but its really helped me stay clean. i think its a uk vs north america thing, but its not madly religious here,
 
I've really been thinking a lot lately about why society wants addicts to be absolutely sober. Sometimes I've realized with my past that at certain points quitting was literally impossible. Nobody could stop me because I couldn't stop myself.

But what I have found is that in times when it's not possible to quit for whatever personal reasons--you can reduce your doses or at least stagnate use. Nothing good comes from recreational opiate abuse on a daily basis, and for sure users benefit from taking less with opiates because they in fact have more euphoric content and pain relief attributes when the doses are lower on the regular.

I was absolutely shocked at how oxy was hitting me when I tapered off 90-120mgs daily and forced myself to take 30-40mgs daily instead (before I totally quit). When I was on 90mgs everyday I could no longer feel the opioids.. and suddenly the lower doses felt awesome. Furthermore, I felt better about myself with the less is more kind of scenario. Opiates bog you down--they strip your emotions good and bad and lock you in a tiny bubble where all you can appreciate is yourself and the drugs. So I suggest at least reaching a middle ground between using and absolute sobriety if you can really force yourself to do so. If "all drugs are bad" then less drugs are less bad lol. Trust me I've been there. Sitting in a room all day for 3-4 days just tweaked on whatever my demons were and not socializing. I truly lost myself some days entirely, and I only got myself back when I lowered the flow of what I was doing to my body/mind. I definitely noticed myself become happier with more moderation. :)
 
I love you guys and NA.... The support, love, spirituality, guidance, venting and help I receive from participating in the program is indispensable and I would never be able to even make it 24hrs without it at this point in my life. I'm at the point in my addiction where I would do anything to make it out of this hellacious mess that has become my shit show of a life.. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. I'll do anything to make it out and become something other than a stupid fucking addict. I have no problem with God, the steps or the work it takes to change. I want to be anything other than an active addict. I was stressing over a job interview. Fuck heroin and the petty excuses my pathetic brain tries to use to justify my using. I am going to keep trying and moving forward. . I'm going to keep fighting to become something other than an addict.

I got my money back from the Xanax and wound up doing one line and then throwing away about a half a gram of dope.

I got the job. Thank you to everybody that replied. The PAWS and insomnia have been horrible this time. Thanks for the SMART recovery suggestion @Rio Fantastic unfortunately I am living in a rural area without transportation at the moment or I would love to try it because the shaming and self righteousness of my support group was awful tonight. I really didn't need that. I beat myself up enough. I'm trying to practice principals over personalities but it can be extremely difficult at times, especially when it is coming from young punks that were addicted to pain killers for a few years and have 60 days clean so now they think they know everything there is to know about addiction and recovery. Not taking anything away from their adversity and accomplishments but I started doing heroin when they were in elementary school. Being chastised and shunned by someone who was somehow able to maintain their apartment and $60,000 truck during their "raging" addiction is getting old and a little insulting at this point.

Thank you @chinup ❤️ unfortunately until I start getting steady paychecks I won't be able to get anything from a doctor. If I could it would probably be a game changer. At my age and with my usage history my recovery periods are becoming extremely long and horrendous. I have done some serious damage to my brain after over 20yrs of heroin addiction, benzo addiction and my past crack abuse. I Have gone through serious abuse of just about every major drug at one time or another during my drug using career. I especially did a number on myself during my late teen years with MDMA. I know the consequences of using have given me PTSD from all the totalled vehicles, being robbed at gunpoint and having my girlfriend die next to me in bed. I wish more people had a little compassion. Anybody that has heard me talk a little about my story knows I have been through hell.

I do have a lot of problems dealing with some of the people and practices of the program but I really need it right now so those people can fuck off because I'm there for myself and it's life or death. Not a very spiritual statement....lol... but I have to protect myself and my fragile recovery. I couldnt care less about what people in the program think about me. I have been through too much and have too big of a heart to let a bunch of stupid addicts get their self righteous kicks and ego fix by beating up on me. I no longer have time for people in the program who's intentions are flawed and askew.

End of rant....lol... I have too much to be happy and grateful for...❤️❤️❤️

You guys are the best. Thank you for the support and understanding. I am so proud that I only did the one line and threw away half a gram. It's a fail and a win in my book. Tomorrow or technically today is a new day.
 
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somni i'm so sorry you're struggling. are you in a situation where you can something from a doctor to help you sleep? sleep was always such a massive thing making it hard for me to stop, even back in the day when i was just trying to quit weed. i was lucky in rehab i got zopis cos i'd brought in a recent script so they had to give it to me, even then they wouldn't give it me too often. personally, persistent lack of sleep will drive me to do literally anything. luckily until recently when i've been waking up early and through the night, which is exhausting now, my sleep has been good since i just decided to face some pain and force myself not to use sleeping pills for a week. that was over 3 months clean though, so i know i had it easier than you at 12 days in.

CATINTHEHAT i would be interested to know why you think NA can actively hinder people? what little research there is is positive. it couldn't get me clean but its really helped me stay clean. i think its a uk vs north america thing, but its not madly religious here,


AFAIK there's no evidential base to suggest that 12-step programs are any more effective at helping people recover than any other form of treatment or a placebo.

One of my main issues with 12 step programs is their black and white definition of what an addict is. The entirety of their program is based around the idea that there is this black and white division between an 'addict' and a 'normal' person. Their belief is that if you are an addict then you have no ability to control your using whatsoever and that if you have that first use up then you will surely go full blown shortly after, and that if you don't use in that manner then you're not an addict, not one of them and their program isn't for you. I find this philosophy be both blatantly inaccurate and also something that stands in the way of many people getting help.

If you ask people to define themselves in this black and white way then naturally the first thing that people do is go on an existential journey trying to work out whether they're an addict or not. A certain proportion of people will just say that's not me and turn away, a certain proportion of people will say yes that's me and submit, but the vast majority will be left questioning on which side of the line they fall and for some people this is a conflict in their mind that is NEVER really resolved. You can see then that for the majority of people going there for help, the first thing they're going to do is not start to formulate a plan for how they're going to recover or solve their problems but start fighting with themselves over whether they are an addict. So now we have this absurd situation whereby someone that was so desperate for help that they've attended an NA meeting is questioning whether they're ill enough to warrant asking these people for help or whether they fit in.

This situation is a disgrace, the only questions people should have to ask themselves when they first go to a group and ask for help are 'do I have a relationship with drugs that is affecting my life in a negative manner which I feel unable to control' and 'do you want help with trying to recover from that situation and lead a more healthy life'? If these were the qualifications for involvement then practically every person who walked through their doors would say yes that's me and immediately feel included and like they were in the right place to receive help. Instead we have this absurd situation whereby people have to go on this huge philosophical journey (whilst they're at their most vulnerable and least likely to be thinking straight) just to be able to allow themselves to commit to receiving help. It's absolute nonsense.

Now everything within the 12-step program everything that you will be taught derives from this black and white idea of addict/not an addict, we could go on and unpick pretty much the entire program because it's built on this horrendously shaky ground, but that's a discussion for another day. There are many other reasons why I believe 12-step can hinder people as much as help them, but I see this core ideological fallacy as being the main offender in terms of 12-step programs hindering people from receiving help. I bet you went through the same process of asking yourself whether you're an addict and whether you fitted in with this group.

You mention religion as usually this is the thing that people assume is preventing people from getting on board with the program and yes this is also one of the (many) other issues with their beliefs. Of course anyone who isn't completely delusional will agree that religion shouldn't have any place in medical treatments whatsoever, that is some primitive medieval shit and the fact that governmental medical agencies will funnel you towards a program that has religion at it's core is also a disgrace. It's unbelievably lazy and reeks of not-giving a shit, imagine if you had diabetes and the doctor sent you to a group and said oh yeah the core of their believe is that you just pray to God that you'll get better. People would be outraged.

So that's basically the core of why I believe 12-step programs actually hinder a lot of people from getting help. I'm not saying they're 100% bad and that there's nothing good to be learned there, but I am saying that on balance they're not any more effective than placebo effect and that actually for a significant chunk of the population seeking help they actually slow that process down. That 12-steps is basically the only answer the mainstream medical community has to addiction is madness, can you imagine if that was the process for any other form of treatment? People wouldn't swallow that bullshit, but people who have a problem with drugs will because they're lonely, desperate, not thinking straight and scared.

I actually get quite angry thinking about this. One day when I'm stronger I'm going to do something about this bullshit situation whereby we have doctors sending away people who desperately need help to pray to god that they will get better. It's a disgrace.
 
I just skimmed this, but it sounds like you kept yourself from going totally off the deep end. Good job! That just shows how much resolve you have.
 
@THECATINTHEHAT - agree with your sentiments almost 100% there (while also acknowledging that many, many people have got a LOT out of the 12 step approach too)

Can't respond in full as have to go out but am inetersted in what you would like the said doctors to actually do other than refer on?
 
@somnilicious

That's amazing to hear re: throwing away the gear, getting the job and more importantly just having a renewed resolve to make your life better, it genuinely made me smile and be happy to hear that you found that strength within you:cool:
 
@THECATINTHEHAT - agree with your sentiments almost 100% there (while also acknowledging that many, many people have got a LOT out of the 12 step approach too)

Can't respond in full as have to go out but am inetersted in what you would like the said doctors to actually do other than refer on?


I'm just about to go out too......but the short answer is that I don't have one.

I think if sat down and spent the time I could put together a more complete practical philosophy on, and schedule (as far as that's possible) for, recovery than I've ever seen represented before but I'm neither qualified enough nor connected enough to be in a position to make that become a reality. I also have an ego problem and I'm probably not as smart as I'd like to think I am so I'm sure I'd realise soon enough that just hypothesising a referenced utilitarian program more successful than any current effort is very difficult, let alone then making it a reality and then tracking the results over time to support your claim and be able to expand the program.
 
I say that as someone who spent a number of years attending NA meetings btw.

I found the 90 meetings in 90 days goal to be very helpful once I committed to sobriety (at the time). I didn't really buy the whole program but it gave me a goal and something to do and look forward to each day. I have to say too that regularly telling my story during that period helped me know myself better. After the 90 days I (once) managed several years without using. I actually thinking of doing it again as willpower alone not cutting it at present...
 
I've really been thinking a lot lately about why society wants addicts to be absolutely sober. Sometimes I've realized with my past that at certain points quitting was literally impossible. Nobody could stop me because I couldn't stop myself.

But what I have found is that in times when it's not possible to quit for whatever personal reasons--you can reduce your doses or at least stagnate use. Nothing good comes from recreational opiate abuse on a daily basis, and for sure users benefit from taking less with opiates because they in fact have more euphoric content and pain relief attributes when the doses are lower on the regular.

I was absolutely shocked at how oxy was hitting me when I tapered off 90-120mgs daily and forced myself to take 30-40mgs daily instead (before I totally quit). When I was on 90mgs everyday I could no longer feel the opioids.. and suddenly the lower doses felt awesome. Furthermore, I felt better about myself with the less is more kind of scenario. Opiates bog you down--they strip your emotions good and bad and lock you in a tiny bubble where all you can appreciate is yourself and the drugs. So I suggest at least reaching a middle ground between using and absolute sobriety if you can really force yourself to do so. If "all drugs are bad" then less drugs are less bad lol. Trust me I've been there. Sitting in a room all day for 3-4 days just tweaked on whatever my demons were and not socializing. I truly lost myself some days entirely, and I only got myself back when I lowered the flow of what I was doing to my body/mind. I definitely noticed myself become happier with more moderation. :)

I disagree that anyone is in a position where it's literally impossible to stop. It may be figuratively impossible or metaphorically impossible, but I think if you really think there was any point where it was literally impossible to stop you're either deceiving yourself or misusing the word "literally". Can quitting at times be extremely difficult? Yeah. Can it feel impossible? Of course. Is it literally not conceivable? No.

I agree with the general ethos of harm reduction, however. Of course, if your choices are to either continue your escalating dose and using as much as possible or to cut your dose down, then cutting down is preferable if abstinence is too difficult at that point in time for whatever reason. However, there's a reason that abstinence underlies not just 12-step meetings but practically every recovery program, including Refuge Recovery and secular ones like Smart Recovery, and it's because moderation is harder for addicts than quitting entirely. Once those neurons have been intertwined with the concept of your drug of choice and you are used to using in an addictive way then it will be extremely difficult to enforce limits. It's possible, of course, but it takes insane willpower & self-control, & if we had a lot of that to begin with then we wouldn't have our drug dependence!

Note that I'm not a 12-step acolyte who dogmatically insists that to count yourself as "sober" you don't just have to stop taking your DOC but methadone/subs, alcohol, weed, prescriptions etc as well (but with a curious blind spot for cigarettes, coffee & donuts....). I think that approach has caused an awful lot of harm, as has many of the AA precepts that have become part of the recovery culture (for example, the insistence that one slip will inevitably lead to an awful binge has I'm sure caused many an addict who may have briefly slipped to think "fuck it" and go on that bender, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy), but I think one of the concepts that they have right is that moderation is a lot harder than abstinence in the long-run. This is just about the practicality of it as well - this isn't even to mention the fact that without abstinence we don't give our brains a chance to heal and so suspend the physiological/biochemical process of recovery so that even if our physical/material conditions improve with moderation, the emotional state that leads us to using will remain identical.

However, I'm pleased that you are harming yourself less than you were. Like I said, I am a big proponent of harm reduction - I just hope that if you want to overcome your addiction then you have some eventual plan for abstinence to give yourself the time & space you need to get better.
 
i need to get back to work so i will reply properly later somni and cat, but just wanted to say. 12 step meetings provide peer and social support, there is evidence that these are beneficial to recovery. meditation is part of the program, thats been proven too. there are other bits but i can't remember off the top of my head. also, i never got into a philosophical quandry about whether or not i was an addict. i was mainly bothered that i didn't actually want to stop using (the only requirement for membership), cos i just wanted the consequences to stop.
 
I got the job. Thank you to everybody that replied. The PAWS and insomnia have been horrible this time. Thanks for the SMART recovery suggestion @Rio Fantastic unfortunately I am living in a rural area without transportation at the moment or I would love to try it because the shaming and self righteousness of my support group was awful tonight. I really didn't need that. I beat myself up enough. I'm trying to practice principals over personalities but it can be extremely difficult at times, especially when it is coming from young punks that were addicted to pain killers for a few years and have 60 days clean so now they think they know everything there is to know about addiction and recovery. Not taking anything away from their adversity and accomplishments but I started doing heroin when they were in elementary school. Being chastised and shunned by someone who was somehow able to maintain their apartment and $60,000 truck during their "raging" addiction is getting old and a little insulting at this point.

Fuck them. Sounds familiar - self-righteous smug pricks with <6 months clean who get their ego boost by shitting on people who are in the same position that they were merely weeks ago. You can safely discount anything that they have to say - they have helpfully identified themselves as conceited wankers and so can be entirely ignored from here on out. I assume that you don't get on with certain people in the group but there are others who are providing the love & support you mentioned?

If NA is working for you then that's fantastic. I think getting support from other addicts is absolutely essential - physically being with other addicts and sharing them and receiving mutual support is irreplaceable and NA is ideal for that. I don't want to harp on about it, but I just want to point out that SMART Recovery is somewhat unique amongst the self-help groups in that the techniques & methods can be taught and implemented by yourself. Since all the techniques are science & evidence-based and explained in clear, simple language, literally anyone can pick up the handbook or go on the website and just try experimenting with different methods to find one that works for you. The website has a bunch of tools that you can read through and deploy any that you feel may be helpful. What I really enjoy about SMART is the overlap it has with NA. Personally, I find that many of the most helpful pieces of advice that I have been given in NA - e.g. "play the tape forward", "HALT" etc - are mirrored in SMART and supplemented and expanded upon but with the religious aspect filtered out.

If I could give you one piece of advice, one principle that I have personally found immensely helpful and that I would strongly recommend to you is to just simply change the words that you're saying to yourself in your thoughts. There have been several instances in this thread where you have let us see how you're talking to yourself - for example calling yourself a "stupid fucking addict" etc. I think this self-criticism isn't just counter-productive and unwarranted but also simply untrue. I stopped referring to myself as an "addict" and instead re-framed my self-perception as "someone engaging in addictive behaviour". Rather than defining myself as an addict and cognitively making that the essence of who I am as a person, I think of myself as someone who had an addiction - it was something I did rather than something I am. This was immensely helpful, and I honestly believe more accurate - we weren't born addicted to heroin, so why define ourselves solely by our worst mistake? Similarly, instead of thinking of yourself as "stupid" just reframe it slightly - you're not "stupid", you're just someone who did a stupid thing. There's a huge difference in that subtle shift in the language you use to refer to yourself, and over time I think it can make the difference between a positive outlook and a negative self-defeating on.

Didn't meant to ramble on, but I hope that you're feeling better and that you can get back on track.
 
I'm just about to go out too......but the short answer is that I don't have one.

I think if sat down and spent the time I could put together a more complete practical philosophy on, and schedule (as far as that's possible) for, recovery than I've ever seen represented before but I'm neither qualified enough nor connected enough to be in a position to make that become a reality. I also have an ego problem and I'm probably not as smart as I'd like to think I am so I'm sure I'd realise soon enough that just hypothesising a referenced utilitarian program more successful than any current effort is very difficult, let alone then making it a reality and then tracking the results over time to support your claim and be able to expand the program.

Hear hear! I agree with all of what you laid out in regards to NA.

If you think you haven't seen a philosophy that mirrors your own laid out before then I think you may be overlooking Smart Recovery. You are, perhaps without realising, echoing a lot of the secular, evidence-based principles that make up the program. I think you should look it up to see if it jives with your own personal outlook on recovery. If it doesn't or I'm mistaken then I'd be really interested to hear where exactly your take and SMART's philosophy differ? It sounds right up your alley.
 
somni, oh my god that thing about people with virtually no clean time lecturing you hit home. it is a problem with anything that is not run by professionals. when i was utterly losing my shit at 6 months clean people at 30 days clean had plenty to say about what i was doing wrong and great advice about how to stop crying all the time. in the end i had a mini binge on booze, coke, benzos and codeine (neurofen plus, oh the contempt i used to have for people who can be arsed to abuse such shitty opiates!) then got professional help from the drugs services and my GP, namely a referral for specialised therapy and a script to balance me while that was going through.

it taught me an important lesson about NA. i go for social support and identification now. i don't even think people know how dangerous it is to give shitty advice cos you think you know something. i didn't have my wallet and was with someone who cared about me when i cracked and decided to get fucked up, so he limited how much coke i could do. if i'd have had my wallet or was with someone who'd lend me money for hard drugs it could have been a very different story.

congrats on the job!!!! i hope it goes well. distraction will do you good i reckon.

cat i reread your post and don't really actually have much to add, as i disagree with the premise of your argument, namely that the first thing that happens when you go to NA is that you get your knickers in a philosophical twist.

i will also say that i very much needed something to emphasise spirituality for my recovery. i've always considered that all bollocks, 'i'm a scientist so that's not for me cos its not rational...' was generally how i thought. now i attend the local buddhist centre almost every week to learn, i'm not a buddhist, just interested, and i feel healthier almost the moment i walk in each week. without having 'this is a spiritual program' rammed down my throat and being utterly desperate to do everything people with clean time recommended to avoid going back to being a crack whore, i probably wouldn't do that. i think its really important to emphasise to people who have lived apart from society, in my case holding it in open contempt, for so long, to learn how to live with other people and yourself, and to me at least, thats what spirituality is about.
 
Something you gotta remember about NA. is that it's decentralized. And how its rules and beliefs are interpreted are influenced by the culture the group itself lives in and the people attending it.

There are many ways to interpret the 12 steps, traditions etc.

So, some groups will really suck while others can be very supportive. It just varies a lot.


WTF is wrong with me? I feel like a lost cause... Doing the NA thing again. Have a sponsor, making meetings everyday but I just can't seem to make it back to sanity long enough to make the right decision.

Sorry if this has been brought up already, but have you tried or considered trying maintenance therapy? It's not for everyone, it may not be for you, but I honestly doubt I'd ever have stopped using heroin this long without it.

If your existing approaches aren't working, it might be worth considering.
 
i need to get back to work so i will reply properly later somni and cat, but just wanted to say. 12 step meetings provide peer and social support, there is evidence that these are beneficial to recovery. meditation is part of the program, thats been proven too. there are other bits but i can't remember off the top of my head. also, i never got into a philosophical quandry about whether or not i was an addict. i was mainly bothered that i didn't actually want to stop using (the only requirement for membership), cos i just wanted the consequences to stop.

Like I said I've been to hundreds and hundreds of 12 step meetings NA, AA, CA the lot. I'm not denying that there's good support and important and useful things that can be learned in 12-step groups, because there definitely is, but for me it all exists within a framework of philosophy that I simply can't agree with and in a lot of instances actually find fairly ridiculous. For me the good things that are available are often in spite of the program rather than because of it.

Everyone knows that Bill Wilson was begging for alcohol on his deathbed, and that doesn't say much for the veracity of the program when the man who invented it and brought it to the world never actually got well or free from his desires despite not drinking.

I don't really want to go down the rabbit hole of arguing about 12-step groups because I could go on for ages and it's actually not very productive. At the end of the day I just worry about what works for me and what hasn't and talking about those things and trying to work out why. 12-steps works for some people and that's great, I would encourage people to examine all options available with an open mind and if something's working for them then stick with it.

Hear hear! I agree with all of what you laid out in regards to NA.

If you think you haven't seen a philosophy that mirrors your own laid out before then I think you may be overlooking Smart Recovery. You are, perhaps without realising, echoing a lot of the secular, evidence-based principles that make up the program. I think you should look it up to see if it jives with your own personal outlook on recovery. If it doesn't or I'm mistaken then I'd be really interested to hear where exactly your take and SMART's philosophy differ? It sounds right up your alley.

I've been to a few SMART meetings, but only ten or so. Unfortunately it's a very small community and I've found the meetings to be fairly inconsistent and inconsistently led. For me they also go a bit too far down the practical solutions route and don't seem to offer the place for emotive release or connection in the way that a 12 step meeting does (which is one of the things that I do really like about 12 step). Like I say my experience is limited though so I wouldn't like to judge too harshly.
 
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