Narcohypnosis and what's really happening in your brain

[incipient]

I'm hoping this will be a useful and informative thread that extends beyond the specifics about substances into relevant stuff about effects. I'm mainly curious about information or experience with "chemically-assisted suggestibility".

As an aside, I use that string of words because my reading up on hypnosis leads me to conclude that the academic consensus seems to be that it's a form of focussed relaxation plus cognitive behavioural therapy/"neuro-linguistic programming"/superstitious incantation etc... (they all sound like fancy ways of just "saying stuff") through suggestion whilst the recipient is in a non-magical condition (not "state") of focussed relaxation.
Academic research indicates this registers effects on fMRI scans, but that doesn't seem to alter the "induction" aspect (which may not be needed) being just a relaxing chat to stir up your imagination; my reading also revealed that the parts of your brain that do imagination, are the same that do memory, and that memories are reconstructed every time your brain retrieves them.

So i've read all the tinhatter style pages about historical mind control, and read snippets here and there, on very old threads here, on a drugs-forum site, and on reddit, and probably other places too, about experiences of things like hypnosis tried under the influence of different substances.
I'm curious if anyone's had any experience or has any thoughts about it.

I've read some people think LSD works because of the reported suggestibility or Cannabis works, perhaps because Cannabis is possibly an acetylcholine agonist, and i've read bits about various antimuscarinics, but i'm wondering whether an acetylcholine inhibitor could even work: it might make someone more suggestible, but is anything going to go in and stay in?!
With any of these substances, is the subject going to be able to receive and accept any kind of hypnosis/CBT/NLP, or would attempting it just be pissing in the wind?!

I'm essentially a bit sceptical about hypnosis. I read a bit of academic reports saying it's a thing, and it works, but there are lots of conflicting bits of info, as well as gaps around induction into a suggestible state, and "outduction" (can't think of a word), but it seems to be said both that everyone enters a "hypnotic state" at least twice a day (transition between sleep and awake), and also that some people don't respond to hypnotic induction. It seems to me that, if it is a thing then there might be a chemical put there that would help anyone get into a "hypnotic state", and able to benefit from post hypnotic suggestions; or maybe it is all just placebo?

Anyway, apologies if this has been discussed before, but otherwise, please share your thoughts and experiences.

Thanks.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

My first wife was a subject in a study at the University of Chicago that was exploring past life regression during hypnosis. In order to get a baseline she was also sent into the "near future" as a control. Some of the things that she was able to forsee still raises the hair at the back of my neck. This occurred in ~ 1970 and as our lives played out it was amazing how correct she was. She saw our daughter being born at home as well as many, many things. Most of events can be explained away by stating that we chose paths that would eventually lead to our fulfilling our own destiny though choice, however she saw certain things that were not connected to our particular lives, but rather a vision of the much larger society and world occurrences.

LSD brings you to a state where you are subject to something that is known as "imprinting". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_(psychology)

This is a state where impressions are made on your thought processes way below the conscious level.

This is how the CIA hoped to use LSD for mind control. It is actually based in science, not pseudoscience, do the work and research for yourself.

 

[incipient]

That is very interesting, thank you. I'll see what I can unearth.

One thing this whole train of thought led me to was that there should be an objective scientific way of doing the whole process.

So that would mean a standard consistent method of induction, which as alluded to, could be "drug augmented", and a methodological way of designing a script to "run"; so for instance, if the literature says that the olfactory sense is more significant than we realise, we insert scent at a particular stage;

if we want to reinforce a particular idea or behaviour, we stimulate dopamine release in the reward centre (Nucleus Accumbens Septi, Ventral Tegmental Area, Ventral Striatum, Anterior Insula etc..), with something, e.g.: cocaine, chocolate, sex, smartphone, whatever is appropriate. I don't even know how you would do it, maybe suggest that every time you think about x you think about chocolate, and give them some chocolate to augment the suggestion, then ask them to repeat it back or something, or ask if they accept the suggestion, then bring them our, test the suggestion, and re-induct them. It sounds unrealistic to try and turn the "hypnotised state" on and off like a tap or light switch., if someone is tripping on something, though. I'm not completely sure if I believe in that kind of stage/street hypnosis stuff.

I guess that when we load concepts, to implant it effectively, we align that input to how the brain takes information in, e.g.: blocks of 7 ideas into short-term memory, with some emotional input to be stored in memory with hippocampus and amygdala input, coming out of so-called "trance" to verify that suggestions have been accepted, or to input some kind of dopaminergic reward, and Pavlovian repetition.

This suggests that some substances might not work if they inhibit one thing whilst triggering another.
Mind you, the way neurotransmitters work seems quite complex, and I've read suggestions that even if memory encoding is inhibited or interrupted, the very visual dream and emotion encoding might not be.

The relevance to this site is are there particular substances or combinations that make this work better than none?

You might not want to take cocaine or ecstasy together with a deliriant, because a stimulant like those will create unacceptable risks (tachycardia?) in combination with a deliriant.

I don't know what does or doesn't work safely or well with LSD or other substances, but I guess there must be a table somewhere of risk profiles.

I've read literature that suggests that there might be a kind of dopamine-acetylcholine "see-saw" in the reward centres that can result in a pleasure rush simultaneous with memory and fear inhibition, where all the dreamlike experiences activated via the visual cortex nudge reality out of the way, or at least, mix it up a bit. I don't know what parts of the brain are activated by LSD, perhaps they are unique to that substance?

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

I believe the study was done by Erika Fromm.

https://psychology.uchicago.edu/content/department-history

 

[incipient]

Thanks for the link.

As a slightly tangential aside, I know this is Wikipedia, but this part of this article seems interesting and relevant to drug-related experiences:

Dopaminergic activation

Two main frontal areas have been implicated in the dream process. The first involves the deep white matter of the frontal lobes (just above the eyes). The main systems at work here involve the mesolimbic and mesocortical dopaminergic pathways.

There are connecting fibres that run between frontal and limbic structures. A dopaminergic pathway runs from the ventral tegmental area, ascends through the lateral hypothalamus, various basal forebrain areas (nucleus basalis, stria terminalis, shell of nucleus accumbens) and terminates in the amygdala, anterior cingulate gyrus and frontal cortex.

Damage to the dopaminergic pathway results in a loss of dreaming. Furthermore, chemical stimulation of the pathway (with L-DOPA for example) increases the frequency and vividness of dreams without affecting REM sleep.[10] The mesolimbic and mesocortical pathways are considered the seeking areas or the motivational command centers of the brain.

Damage not only results in the loss of dreams but also of motivated behaviour.[6] Transection or inhibition of the dopamine pathway also reduces some positive symptoms of schizophrenia, many of which have been likened to dream-like states.

Drugs that block the system have anti-psychotic effects but also reduce excessive and vivid dreaming.[10] Further evidence that dreaming can occur independently of REM sleep is found in the occurrence of nocturnal seizures during NREM that often present themselves as nightmares. Activation here is seen in the temporal lobe, again a forebrain area.[6][10]

The evidence of the involvement of mesolimbic and mesocortical dopaminergic pathways suggests that dreaming occurs when a motivational component is activated. Only when this pathway is removed do dreams cease to occur. This system can be activated by mechanisms of REM sleep but can also occur independently during NREM stages of sleep.


Perceptual processing

Another area thought to be involved in the generation of dreams is the Parieto-Occipito-Temporal junction (PTO).[10] This is an area of grey cortex towards the back of the brain involved in the highest levels of perceptual processing. It is here that perceptions are converted into abstract thoughts and memories.[6] The PTO is also vital for mental imagery.[10]

Damage specifically to this area results in complete loss of dreaming, however damage to lower levels of perceptual processing merely results in reduced aspects of dream imagery. This is the basis for the suggestion that dreaming involves a reversed sequence of perceptual events. Instead of bottom-up it is top-down (higher levels activating lower levels instead lower to higher).

Activation of the motivational mechanisms in the brain would normally be directed toward goal-oriented actions. However, during sleep access to the motor system is blocked (by inactivation of the dorsolateral frontal convexity). As a result, activation moves backwards toward the perceptual areas. This is why the dreamer doesn't engage in motivated behaviours but imagines them.

Furthermore, there is inactivation of the reflective system in the limbic brain which leads the dreamer to mistake the dream for reality. Damage to this area also results in the inability to distinguish dreams from reality during waking state.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_neuroscience_of_dreams

The way it describes dreaming as dopamine-driven, seems to align with reported deliriant and hallucinogenic experiences. Though I wonder, if you're asleep or in a liminal or "trance" state whilst a hallucinogen or deliriant is in your system, will you dream? Will the words of anyone, never mind a "hypnotist" get through to your perceptual or memory-formimg system; will they even do that when you're not on anything, for that matter?!

Some interesting-looking papers:

"DARK Classics in Chemical Neuroscience: Atropine, Scopolamine, and Other Anticholinergic Deliriant Hallucinogens"
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acschemneuro.8b00615#/doi/10.1021/acschemneuro.8b00615

"The Experience Elicited by Hallucinogens Presents the Highest Similarity to Dreaming within a Large Database of Psychoactive Substance Reports"
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00007/full

"Understanding Central Nervous System Effects of Deliriant Hallucinogenic Drugs through Experimental Animal Models"
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acschemneuro.8b00433