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TDS Opiate PAWS: anyone feel WORSE after exercise?

J

jjacobsen

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Joined
Jul 13, 2008
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Background: 5 year heroin habit, then 1 year suboxone.

2 things concern me:

1) everyone else talks about PAWS like it?s only anxiety depression insomnia. I?m 3 months clean and I still have woke days with physical symptoms: mostly a kind of tingling nausea throughout my whole body. A bit like being hungover. Is this normal?

2) even more seemingly abnormal: it seems to happen chiefly the day after a hard workout. WTF?! EVERYONE says exercise helps their PAWS. Why am I different? I got bloodwork done and they said nothing wrong so I have no idea what?s going on.

Thanks in advance,
J
 
It's normal for PAWS to include less severe versions of the physical symptoms of acute withdrawal. Generally it comes and goes during PAWS, rather than being constant.

It is odd that working out makes you feel worse, in my experience, working out is the best thing for feeling better. What kind of working out are you doing? The best thing you can do is cardio. I find that weight lifting also really helps with limb restlessness.

Anyway,after 3 months it's totally normal to be experiencing PAWS still. It can last up to a year or so, depending on how long you were using.
 
Thanks shadowmeister. Good to know it’s not something more insidious wrong with me. It does seem to be bad for a few days and then minimal for a few.
Yeah the working out exacerbating it is weird—no one else seems to be reporting similar experiences. I do cardio and weights. Maybe I’m working myself too hard, losing weight too fast (I gained 40 lbs and have now lost over 15 of it)

Thanks again,
J
 
How hard are you working out? It sounds more like just the results of over working yourself rather than PAWs being aggravated. "tingling nausea... bit like being hungover" doesn't really sound like opiate PAWs to me, and honestly I'm not sure how exercise could be triggering PAW to flare up(could be possible just doesn't seem likely and i'm not sure how). I would take a closer look at your diet, eating/drinking habits, and consider toning down your workout intensity. 15 lbs is a lot of weight, so if it's been a short period of time(2-3 months), it might be a sign of dieting too hard as well.
 
Personally any outdoor activity can do wonders for any WD symptom from most substances. Our bodies need all the microbes, sunshine, wind, pollution and/or whatever else in "out there".
It sucks to get up and cut the grass in the middle of a fairly awful opioid WD mid july but when finished it seems I sweated some out and can rest a bit easier after shower.
Not to mention the mental side of doing something one does not want to do and each time we do this we get stronger. Mental fortitude is amazing.
 
That makes sense about working out / dieting too hard. I mean I’m eating healthy not some fad diet but maybe not enough fuel for the workouts I’m doing. I do sleep from 6-8 hours (albeit waking up all the time) and as long as that’s true I can handle the body discomfort. Maybe a little more rest for now. Thanks for your help. I’ve found the sun / vitamin D really help as well.
 
While I don't want to minimize your experience, Shroomy, I don't want to unduly scare the OP either... PAWS can take quite some time to go away, but given time healthy living, you can get back to feeling normal. I quit opiates 5 years ago and have no remnants of it at all (and haven't for years). To be fair, you're experiencing benzo withdrawal now which is probably what is responsible for you feeling discomfort and being high-strung. If I recall you used benzos to help with getting off of H so I don't think you've been able to feel what it would be like for you without another drug causing you troubles, after a year off of opiates.
 
I just didn't want the last post in this thread to say "you'll probably never feel right again", okay? It wasn't supposed to be an attack on you. Having hope is important in the healing process.
 
Okay, I am in withdrawal today by the way as I fell asleep and skipped a dose. In a terrible mood. Everything is a threat when this mild paranoia starts up.

I just wanted to say, that after 6 years of this nobody, under any circumstances, if the habit was very serious, could expect to feel like themselves after 3 months. Even after a year, the experience of being off opiates haunts me on a daily basis. It is different for everyone. I was depressed with chronic pain and panic attacks before I started using and had so many problems (person should look back at how they were originally too, if it started out recreational or not) so I am personally going back to that. It's less painful than being hooked on that stuff.

I was very confused around 3 - 9 months as I felt like shit and nothing had changed yet, I didn't start quitting benzos until late last year. In my opinion this might be Opioid Induced Hyperalgesia which should go away in time. It is not really possible to say how long but the more effort put in the better (including exercise, within limits). Too much exercise can be a negative thing.
 
No worries man. Yeah definitely agreed, after only 3 months, you definitely aren't going to feel great yet, and that's totally normal. :)
 
Yeah and by the way I consider myself recovered from opiate abuse with a caveat. It requires maintenance and upkeep for the foreseeable future and probably the rest of my life. By this, I essentially mean living the healthiest lifestyle that I can in order to make up for all the health I lost in withdrawal and to repair myself faster (was a functional junkie, always took care of myself when I had it). Have to get mental health programs involved now too, screwed myself with the dope. It's easy for me to fall apart, and I don't really see that changing but that's me. I seem particularly susceptible to withdrawals. Everyone will have some sort of long term issue I would think.
And yeah sorry I don't mean to be rude, been peering out the curtains today. I feel what I think is known as derealization. Everything feels like a dream, I can't really think or do anything and I am crazy irritable as it's Monday and I need to be on the go. Can't believe the time already... and my taper dose isn't for hours from now. Way to start the week ugh. That is benzo related though. Opiates was last year. Benzos is this year.
Still, I think it is best to wait out the day until my next taper dose. Working out made my chronic back pain horrible at first, this hot yoga, but after a little while there was a point (I had to go 5 times a week) where chronic pain was not felt. It no longer interfered with my life, working out is so important. A lot of people replace bad addictions with ones to working out or a similar discipline like yoga or martial arts; it is healthy in my opinion.

I worked out yesterday, still getting back into it and I am exhausted today. It's normal, if the body has been under stress for 3 months it probably won't recover as fast and the muscle aches after working out, I remember mistaking as withdrawal for a while as it was so amplified.
 
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Well this is a helpful discussion for me on both sides. I wonder if using suboxone for 6 months, tapering down to a tiny sliver, and then another 6 months doing the same with Kratom will make my PAWS easier or worse than cold turkey.
Either way, it’s good to hear some people say it’s normal to feel bad 3 months in because I read so many people who said at that point it was either clear sailing or just mental issues and insomnia. What’s jarring for me is two days of hopelessness and then a few days feeling positive / functional; then repeat. I guess now I know what bipolar is like.
 
It will remove the paws, but then when you come off those it will return. Getting off suboxone is hard as it has a long half life. Your at three months, why start over. The miracle will come and you will make it their. I know it sucks, but you fought like hell to get here.

My paws lasted for right about a year, getting better slowly. Then one day the miracle happened. LOL.. I had this island of frozen sunburn goosebumps that would sail around my body. It was a patch of skin that had that weird opiate withdrawal sensation and it would just drift around my skin for months.


I jumped from 260 mgpd roxy, 80mgpd methadone and a week later 4mgpd alprazolam. Its over four years later and I'm still opiate and benzo clean.


For the mental Bi polar like swings. Look at polar opposite thinking (black and white.) Addiction is a brain state in which the limbic system enjoys a bolstered executive position. It works off good or bad thinking. Look up black and white thinking and how to change it into a healthier higher order cognition. Making a strong effort to recognize and alter these thought patterns should level out your extreme moods greatly.


As far as the exercise I would drop the aerobic and any anaerobic cardio until you have healed more. This type of exercise has the tendency to make us feel good for a little bit and then worse. The reason is that it initially stimulates important neurotransmitter production, but it also causes a large release aka runners high. Heavy prolonged use and detox causes a state of depleted neurotransmitters with improper ratios.


We need to stimulate production, storage and promote reregulation of our neurotransmitters to their correct interrelated levels. Walking is where its at for this. Walking or any prolonged low intensity exercise will stimulate neurotransmitter production, but it will not cause a large release. That means we retain the neurotransmitters produced and they will continue to promote our neural recovery. Exercise also promotes reregulation and neural plasticity.


Have you included a neurotransmitter precursor supplement into your recovery diet? If not I would include either phenylamine or L tyrosine. They are amino acids that are precursors to many of the neurotransmitters your trying tom replenish and stabilize.

Keep rolling your doing great!!
 
Thanks neversick that’s REALLY helpful. Just to be clear I’m not on anything for 3 months. Just saying it was Kratom I quit from in the end.
I’ll have to look up the black or white thinking. I didn’t realize it was possible to change it - I thought it was like the physical symptoms: just waiting it out. That’s depressing about the effects of aerobic exercise - I was so excited to be finally losing the opiate weight.
Yes I do take l tyrosine and dl phenylalanine. I imagine I’d be even worse without them! Thanks again!
 
NP.

Thinking, mood and emotion are all interrelated. Thinking determines our moods and emotions and our moods and emotions effect our thinking. We can willfully control our thinking thus learn to use this to determine and control our moods and emotions. Consider joining in the I am thankful and share something positive threads regularly and then explore other techniques to enhance and develope your understanding and ability to do this.

Also look up weight loss and cardio. I think the only cardio thats been shown to be good at weight loss is interval training. Walking is really good for weight loss. When you check it out i think you will be pleasantly surprised.

EDIT:

The relationship between thoughts and emotions is self promoting and can quickly lead to spiraling or rapid polar mood change especially when combined with all or nothing thinking. A very strong first step in learning to think on a higher plane is to stop judging anything as good or bad.


If we have something happen and we judge it as bad and slip into negative thinking we can get hit with strong negative emotion. Very frequently emotional response is really powerful in early recovery. Strong negative emotion can promote negative thinking which can cause more negative thinking which can cause more negative emotion and mood. Because all or nothing thinking is almost a staple of addiction we can then find ourselves, our thoughts and our mood bottomed out. Hopeless and helpless.

The process works both ways though. So by intentionally promoting positive thinking we promote positive emotion that feeds positive thinking which generates positive more positive thinking and results in positive moods and a more enjoyable experience of life.

Managing Depressive Thinking


Also consciously centering and re centering our thoughts in the present is very powerful. Because our emotional response is so strong we can get slammed. If we slip into the past we can get hit with strong regret, remorse, guilt, embarrassment, longing and anger. If we jump into the future we can get slammed with fear, anxiety, uncertainty, self doubt, stress and hopelessness. If your getting hit with strong emotions check where your thinking is and if needed return it to the present by a strong technique like mindfulness.

Post Your Best Mindfulness Resources and Experiences

Our life is what our thoughts make it.
Marcus Aurelius

You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
Marcus Aurelius

The soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts.
Marcus Aurelius

We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
Buddha

Confine yourself to the present.
Marcus Aurelius

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.
Buddha
 
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Thanks for taking the time to write this. I will read those threads. I’m aware of the spiraling extremes addicted brain’s can think themselves into. One problem with PAWS is the days where the black cloud seeps in it doesn’t seem to be ABOUT anything. The same activities or stimuli which a day before left me at least indifferent and sometimes even positive now all seem to be colored with the same gray pall. Even when I mediatate or do something meditative and thus think about nothing I am weighed down by a vague sense of bleakness. About nothing in particular. That’s why I thought maybe I’m doomed to just sit through it. But luckily it does seem to last only a day or two. There’s always a SLIGHT sadness but I’m REALLY hesitant to try antidepressants again.
 
14 months in and I am having a great day! It does get much better. The oscillations of instability take a while to dampen. I have no cravings whatsoever; I type with no attachment to heroin at all (this is a constant, I never have had them since I quit). It would be a choice to use it just like starting all over again, and I would absolutely refuse. I am feeling more like my self but I am just exemplifying how it can take a really long time. It's still so worth it I fucking hated having that shit in my life! It was fucking misery being a fucking dope fiend if you think back to that shit and crave it at all think twice!
 
Yeah, every time I have a passing thought of "man it would be nice to take an opiate", I just remember the misery of opiate addiction and the craving goes right put the window. I trained myself to think that way by forcing myself to have that thought process over and over.
 
For me the struggle isn’t about relapse. I could imagine that being a struggle if I was an alcoholic, because you can get cheap alcohol legally anywhere. But the cost of heroin makes it literally impossible for me to start up again. I guess others just sell it or are rich? It’s always baffled me how others could afford it. I quit when I ran out of my life savings.
 
A lot of people neither sell it nor are rich... they just sell everything they own and eventually start stealing and end up homeless eventually.

When I was on opiates I was doing oral opium from washing poppy seeds (a combo of codeine and morphine and other lesser alkaloids like thebaine - one of the longest-lasting and worst withdrawals of anything). Before that it was kratom. Since both of mine were legal, I was able to put it on credit so I racked up $40k in debt over 10 years plus spent all my excess money all the time. Eventually I found a place to get strong poppy seeds in bulk for very little per pound so at the end I wasn't even spending much money.
 
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