2C-P Associated Fatality?

[Help?!?!]

Hey your views your view is all good. It's just simple truth though. We'll never know why she died exactly. Of all the 2c's I'd summarize P as the one most likely to cause trouble but not so likely that it'd kill people at any real relevant does for any really relevant reason. Sure if you eat 100's of mgs it's not too hard to imagine and my own experience isnt a great note but I can attest I've dosed 90% of psychedelics far to high in the years past with no real issue. In summation one would come to believe that the case is on the rarer side and isn't something that would regularly occur most times. This leads me too believe that there's a decent possibility that there's more than simple 2c-P toxicity at play. Who knows though as speculation is highly useless. Over almost 60 years of known use the 2c's have rarely caused death(not including the T series)and most of these were rather extreme cases where participants ingested Bic lighter side lines nasally.

While I agree the government is largely at fault, the individual is as well. Know your body, know your drug, know your dose. If you want to live you have responsibility to know these things. The world is far from perfect so the prerequisites lie with you....

 

[Hodor]

Over almost 60 years of known use the 2c's have rarely caused death(not including the T series)and most of these were rather extreme cases where participants ingested Bic lighter side lines nasally.

2C-B was first synthesized by Shulgin in 1974, and I am fairly certain it was the first of its kind (the term "2C" refers to the alkyl chain of the previously-explored DOx series being shortened from 3 carbons to 2 carbons, hence "2C"), so they've only been around for 45 years at most.

What's more, out of all the 2C's, 2C-B was the only one that achieved a modicum of "mainstream" popularity, and it is arguably one of the more well-tolerated ones. Out of the others, even the ones that enjoyed a certain degree of popularity among a relatively small target demographic of psychonauts, EDM enthusiasts, drug nerds and polysubstance users, are generally extremely hard to obtain today (ex.: 2C-I or 2C-T-7). So in reality, we have precious little data concerning their toxicity.

And 2C-P never really was among the "popular" 2C's, due to its excessive duration and challenging headspace; relative to most other drugs, the number of people who've used 2C-P is almost vanishingly small; and out of those, how many can claim to have used it more than 5 times?
Can 2C-P be ingested somewhat "safely" if you're using precisely measured doses, and are able to get medical help in case of an emergency? Sure, but so can fentanyl. Unfortunately, the reality is that the vast majority of users aren't going to follow "ideal" safety precautions.

Now don't get me wrong, I consider 2C-E to be an amazing substance, and I would assume that 2C-P, too, could provide extremely interesting experiences. But for the time being, I would certainly try to err on the side of caution as far as the "safety" (or lack thereof) of 2C-P is concerned.

 

[Help?!?!]

Haha that's why I said almost sixty cause I wasn't checking. Regardless of actual popularity in the main stream it still stands that a decent amount of people have tried various 2c's. P or E was always the group favorite when I was passing around doses. You know shulgin most likely gave many people doses of them and gave the synthesis route to make them. There's just no way to quanitfy the data. Compared too other drugs sure it's hard to say their popular but they are some of the most popular of obscure psychedelics. That last post was just mainly my thoughts and how we'll never know. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Hodor]

Haha that's why I said almost sixty cause I wasn't checking. Regardless of actual popularity in the main stream it still stands that a decent amount of people have tried various 2c's. P or E was always the group favorite when I was passing around doses. You know shulgin most likely gave many people doses of them and gave the synthesis route to make them. There's just no way to quanitfy the data. Compared too other drugs sure it's hard to say their popular but they are some of the most popular of obscure psychedelics. That last post was just mainly my thoughts and how we'll never know. Nothing more, nothing less.

I wouldn't equate the popularity of 2C-P with that of 2C-E; 2C-E is arguably one of the more popular 2C's (but still nowhere near as popular as 2C-B), but still vastly more popular than 2C-P. 2C-E may be intense, but it has the advantage of being similar to an LSD trip in terms of duration, while 2C-P's duration is comparable to a DOx. Shulgin passing on the synthesis route doesn't mean that much, because 2C-P is not something people can just cook up in their kitchen, its preparation requiring substantially more reaction steps than the comparatively simple-to-make 2C-B.

And Shulgin wasn't Owsley, or some Chinese RC lab; he presumably gave doses of 2C-E and 2C-P to friends and acquaintances, but he wasn't synthing kilos of the stuff for world-wide distribution. Even if it had been his mission in life to "turn on" as many people as possible, he probably would have done it using 2C-B rather than 2C-E, as the general feedback he got from his friends on 2C-E was that while they found it interesting enough to potentially re-visit it at some point in the future, they didn't necessarily "like" it, or consider it "fun".
Of 2C-P, he wrote: "There was one report of an experience in which a single dosage of 16 mg was clearly an overdose, with the entire experiment labeled a physical disaster, not to be repeated. A consistent observation is that there may not be too much latitude in dosage between that which would be modest, or adequate, and that which would be excessive. The need for individual titration would be most important with this compound."
So even in Shulgin's small-scale trials with 2C-P, there were already reports of poor tolerability and an extremely steep dose-response curve.

 

[lamanogaucha]

Over the years, I've used 2C-P six or seven times. It's a good one, but its duration prevents me from taking it more often.

Regarding its dose-response curve, it's indeed a steep one. Therefore, measurements must be done very carefully. For me, 8mg is a solid ++/moderate +++, 10mg is a bona fide +++, and 12mg is a strong +++ (it easily feels twice as powerful as 8mg). 14mg is the maximum that I would take (and haven't done so yet).

From experience, I can see why 2C-P could be dangerous if used incorrectly and/or if a person has a preexisting medical condition that can be exacerbated by the drug. Set and setting can also play a part in aggravating negative effects. I wouldn't be surprised if Louella Fletcher-Michie had only 2C-P in her system, but too large a dose, an undiagnosed health issue, poor set and setting, and a sack of garbage for a boyfriend resulted in her death.

 

[Phobos]

Is it known if the girl described any symptom while asking for help?
I wonder how many people, in her boyfriend's shoes, would have called for help?
I mean before she lost consciousness. I'm afraid a different person would have possibly delayed a call to 911 on different grounds, such as to avoid potential legal trouble and the exposure of her consumption of recreational drugs.
All being reassured that nothing was really wrong as the 2c-X are generally considered benign compounds.

I never taken 2c-P, but I have had several experiences with 3c-P, and it had and effect that really creeped me out a bit, I would perceive some sort of electricity moving through muscle fibers as travelling through nerves, and in the occasions I was able to see and/or touch the affected area in time, I would see a cramp (yes, a cramp) running around my body, say a bump the size of a half walnut moving from my knee up the abductors, into my crotch and down the other abductor till the knee. This in a matter of a few seconds.

 

[Hodor]

All being reassured that nothing was really wrong as the 2c-X are generally considered benign compounds.

Which is an unfortunate myth that needs to die . 2C-B, 2C-C, 2C-D - those are benign.

But 2C-E, 2C-P or the 2C-T-x series? Those are not to be handled recklessly.

I never taken 2c-P, but I have had several experiences with 3c-P, and it had and effect that really creeped me out a bit, I would perceive some sort of electricity moving through muscle fibers as travelling through nerves, and in the occasions I was able to see and/or touch the affected area in time, I would see a cramp (yes, a cramp) running around my body, say a bump the size of a half walnut moving from my knee up the abductors, into my crotch and down the other abductor till the knee. This in a matter of a few seconds.

Interestingly, 3C-P isn't actually that closely related to 2C-P from a structural standpoint.

As mentioned before, the term "2C" comes from Shulgin taking a compound that originally had a 3-carbon-side chain (i.e. an amphetamine), and making its 2-carbon analogue (i.e. a phenylethylamine).
For example, DOB without the alpha-methyl group becomes 2C-B, and DOI becomes 2C-I. In case of 2C-E and 2C-P, they were based off of DOEt and DOPr, respectively.

The 3C's, on the other hand, are amphetamine analogues of compounds originally created as phenylethylamines. Specifically, 3C-E and 3C-P are based on the mescaline analogues escaline and proscaline.
In other words, besides the methyl group (or lack thereof) there are two significant differences between 2C-P and 3C-P: For one, the propyl group in 2C-P is directly attached to the benzene ring, whereas in 3C-P, it is a propoxy group, meaning there is an oxygen atom between the ring and the propyl chain (ditto for the ethyl chain in 2C-E and the ethoxy group in 3C-E).
The other difference is the substitution pattern: The 3C-series shares the substitution pattern of mescaline, with the alkoxy groups in the 3-, 4- and 5- positions. The 2C's and DOx's, on the other hand, are substituted in the 2-, 4- and 5-positions.

 

[Phobos]

Interestingly, 3C-P isn't actually that closely related to 2C-P from a structural standpoint.

As mentioned before, the term "2C" comes from Shulgin taking a compound that originally had a 3-carbon-side chain (i.e. an amphetamine), and making its 2-carbon analogue (i.e. a phenylethylamine).
For example, DOB without the alpha-methyl group becomes 2C-B, and DOI becomes 2C-I. In case of 2C-E and 2C-P, they were based off of DOEt and DOPr, respectively.

The 3C's, on the other hand, are amphetamine analogues of compounds originally created as phenylethylamines. Specifically, 3C-E and 3C-P are based on the mescaline analogues escaline and proscaline.
In other words, besides the methyl group (or lack thereof) there are two significant differences between 2C-P and 3C-P: For one, the propyl group in 2C-P is directly attached to the benzene ring, whereas in 3C-P, it is a propoxy group, meaning there is an oxygen atom between the ring and the propyl chain (ditto for the ethyl chain in 2C-E and the ethoxy group in 3C-E).
The other difference is the substitution pattern: The 3C-series shares the substitution pattern of mescaline, with the alkoxy groups in the 3-, 4- and 5- positions. The 2C's and DOx's, on the other hand, are substituted in the 2-, 4- and 5-positions.

Awesome explanation, thanks.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

Over the years, I've used 2C-P six or seven times. It's a good one, but its duration prevents me from taking it more often.

Regarding its dose-response curve, it's indeed a steep one. Therefore, measurements must be done very carefully. For me, 8mg is a solid ++/moderate +++, 10mg is a bona fide +++, and 12mg is a strong +++ (it easily feels twice as powerful as 8mg). 14mg is the maximum that I would take (and haven't done so yet).

I'm in agreement with you even though I've only had one experience with this substance. It's _very_ powerful by weight and it takes so long to come-up that I could see someone easily over doing it and taking way too much. The one time I took it I capped up 10-12mg and it looked like there was barely anything in the capsule. I took it with a friend and he was stunned when I showed him how little material we'd be using (it was his first time with anything aside from shrooms/LSD). I explained several times to expect a 3 hour come-up along with a 24 hour duration. The come-up felt like it took forever and even when it started to set-in it took a long time from first feeling it until we got up to the peak. My friend commented that it may not be working, asked for a re-dose (which I denied him) and later said it didn't feel too strong only to get a solid +++ by 5 hours after dosing. I was on the same level of course but had more of a tolerance to psychedelics so I don't think I got as far out there as him.

I recall after peaking that he was staring at a clock for some time and asked me: "So, we'll be down in about 4 more hours right?". I again explained that no we were in for a good 12 hours of strong effects and 24 hours before we'd probably be all the way back down. I wish I would have taken a picture of the expression on his face. He couldn't believe such little material could be that strong or last that long.

This is why I always stress the importance of researching all you can about the drugs you plan on taking. Even the so-called harmless ones can lead you to bad places if you take too much of them. Even something like LSD can kill you if you mistake it for something else and hoover it up your nose like it was cocaine. Thankfully, most people that don't know what they're doing don't have access to large amounts of most substances or they're getting them pre-dosed in capsule/blotter instead of crystal/powder. Even they can find themselves getting into trouble though. I'm very careful with the substances I keep around but I've had "friends" go snooping through my stuff, finding a bag of white powder, ignoring the label, and assuming it was cocaine or heroin. I'm thankful it was MXE instead of something like 5-meo-mipt, 25e, or 2C-P that they happened across. If they'd had gone into that box a week before there is no telling what would have happened. This is why I keep things locked up these days.

Anyway, I'm not surprised to hear about someone getting in trouble with 2C-P. It's sad that she wasn't around people that were watching out for her best interests. This death was preventable.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I'm not defending the killer boyfriend. But how often do people tripping think they are dying? Very often. Usually the person is just tripping so we shrug it off if we are a sitter and they aren't siezing or something crazy

 

[Hodor]

Awesome explanation, thanks.

It is actually interesting to think about how Shulgin arrived at his beloved 2C-series in such a roundabout way.

Shulgin really loved mescaline, but cacti are significantly more troublesome to grow than shrooms, and the doses for synthetically produced mescaline are so high (approx. 250-500 mg) that it was generally not viable to produce it in a clandestine lab; IIRC he also argued that a high active dose implied a rather low affinity for the desired receptor targets, and thus a greater chance of unknown undesired side-effects, as well as a potentially higher toxicity if larger amounts of metabolites are being formed.

So he set out to create more potent analogues; the most obvious being simply mescaline modified with the alpha-methyl-group of amphetamine: 3,4,5-trimethoxyamphetamine, or simply "TMA" for short (note that Shulgin wasn't the first to synthesize it, but earlier experiments either didn't actually involve human trials, or were classified as military secrets).
He found TMA to be 2-3 times as potent as mescaline, which also wasn't exactly stunning. However, by experimenting with different substitution patterns, he eventually arrived at 2,4,5-trimethoxyamphetamine ("TMA-2"), which achieved roughly 10 times the potency of mescaline.

The next step in increasing psychedelic activity turned out be to modify the compound in the 4-position. Replacing the methoxy with a methyl resulted in a compound he called DOM (for DesOxy/Methyl), which turned out to be roughly 50 times the potency of mescaline; further modifications in this position eventually resulted in the creation of DOB, which was 3 times as potent as DOM, active at doses as low as 1 mg.

Unfortunately, DOB (and the other ultra-potent members of the DOx family) were also exceedingly long-lasting. Few people were interested in tripping for over 24 hours straight.
So, Shulgin eventually got the idea to simply go back to square one and remove the alpha-methyl-group. Sure, he expected a drastic decrease in potency, but given the already-extreme strength of the DOx family, this wasn't that much of a concern. And interestingly, not only were most of the resultant "2C-" compounds still active at doses in the tens of miligrams (similar to psilocybin and its analogues), but there was also a large variability between them when it came to duration: 2C-B, for example, tended to share the short duration of psilocybin, 2C-E's was closer to LSD, and 2C-P's was closer to DOM (which was about as long of a psychedelic experience as the average user could tolerate without finding it exhausting)... and with 2C-G, he even made a compound that matched the excessive duration of some of the longer-lasting DOx.
Just goes to show you that sometimes, you have to take a step back to make a whole series of leaps forward

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah the whole saga of discovery is super fascinating. What a pioneer.

 

[cosmic charlie]

Very interesting post Hodor, thank you.

Sasha was an incredible person.

 

[white55]

Why do assholes like the dude who gave the girl 2c-p have to ruin stuff for us that would use the substances with the respect they deserve?

Same shit happened with 2c-t-7.....

 

[Pfafffed]

Some more info came out today. Apparently, she ingested "nearly six times the normal dose of 6mg." Based on this, I'm guessing her dosage was between 33 and 35mg.

This is interesting, because in 2013, "nine EU-based customers of a firm were sent packages containing 2C-P ? mislabelled as buphedrone, a mephedrone variant with a standard dose of around 80-100 mg. Many people took a tenfold overdose of 2CP."

One of those who did reported that ?it started with sweating profusely and uncontrollable muscle spasms and got worse from there. The trip lasted over 30 hours?The night was chaotic and apocalyptic, no sleep, heavily disorientated.?

A week later, she took it again. Same deal, but worse: ?I loved the moment the sun came up. I spent dawn naked on my terrace. The world around me looked like a churning and swirling Van Gogh painting ? only much sharper, more precise. [I was] a naked animal, poisoned and exhausted,? she said.

Also in 2013, at a concert in Connecticut seven people were hospitalized after three collapsed after taking 2C-P. It was reported that several had to be resuscitated with CPR and defibrillators.

This provides more data, but not a lot of clarity about what happened in this case.

 

[Xorkoth]

I hadn't heard of that, the fact that numerous people all took a lot more than 33-35mg and didn't die suggests that a perfect storm took place in the body of that poor girl who died. Maybe it's like how people have died taking relatively normal doses of 25i-NBOMe, yet others have taken stupidly high doses and survived? Just some metabolic factor(s), like enzyme deficiency or something that rendered it much more toxic in overdose than it would be for most people. Or, she had some other substance in her blood too, that they didn't detect.

Does it say what the cause of death was?

 

[perpetualdawn]

What is the source for the information that she took "6x the normal dosage"? Just wondering if it's from someone like her boyfriend, maybe he's downplaying the dosage. Or maybe there was a measurement or calculation error and it was actually 60x normal dose.

 

[Pfafffed]

It was in a statement by the attorney for the defendant, I'm pretty sure. The toxicology report was unable to determine (unsurprisingly) how much she had taken. The statement reporting on the statements I've been reading from experts giving testimony has been conflicting, so I don't know what to believe. I believe the coroner determined the cause of death to be "2C-P toxicity," which seems really odd. I've not seen any reports of organ/system failure anywhere.

 

[Pfafffed]

the fact that numerous people all took a lot more than 33-35mg and didn't die suggests that a perfect storm took place in the body of that poor girl who died. Maybe it's like how people have died taking relatively normal doses of 25i-NBOMe, yet others have taken stupidly high doses and survived? Just some metabolic factor(s), like enzyme deficiency or something that rendered it much more toxic in overdose than it would be for most people. Or, she had some other substance in her blood too, that they didn't detect.

Those are the only explanations that make any sense to me. The idea that it was just bad luck that caused her to die from a dose much lower than that which has been survived by many other people just doesn't sit well with me, which is why I keep trying to get more definitive answers. I'm sure it's happened many times, though, likely with insufflated 2C-T-7, PMA, and NBOMEs

 

[perpetualdawn]

It was in a statement by the attorney for the defendant, I'm pretty sure.

OK, so it might just be based on the defendant's word, which might not be reliable. We don't know that he weighed out the dose, he might have eyeballed a gelcap of 2C-P filled with about what a strong MDMA pills look like, something like that, and reporting that he gave her 6x, when in fact he has no idea. He might be reporting his intention rather than the actual dosage.

Just inventing a scenario here. I'm just saying we can't assume much about how much 2C-P she actually took. I think it's possible she took a massive overdose way higher than 10x normal. Hopefully more information surfaces.