Help with sleep after kicking multiple habits

[kevo1243]

Hello, I have been dropping my addictions/bad habits since the beginning of the year, and I have not been able to get a solid nights sleep. Now I have some experience so the typical answers might not work here. Here is my background: 3 weeks ago I quit a kratom & dip tobacco habit. I have using kratom basically non stop for about five years, and my current usage was 6g 2x a day & I had been using tobacco for basically 12 years non stop, and my habit had been really severe recently, like a dip in my mouth any chance I got. On top of this, I was smoking pot every day and just quit a few days ago.

For sleep so far I have used melatonin, zzzquil, valerian root and even edibles. The problem I am having I think is related to how I kicked these habits. I have been exercising, eating healthy, & drinking a lot of water. I am also in the middle of a physical therapy type program to fix an injury, so I am all-around feeling pretty damn good physically.

Now when I sleep, no matter what combo from above I try, I always seem to wake up multiple times throughout the night and a lot of times I'll wake up after 4-6 hours, lay awake a couple hours, then I am able to fall asleep again. At first I thought this was caused to drinking too much water & needing to pee but I have adjusted my routine to this and while I do need to pee when I wake up, it is not necessary. It is almost like my brain/body is so used to not sleep 6+ hours straight it doesn't know how to.

One more thing to add is I have stuggled with addiction for the last 12 years. About 7 years I went to rehab, got healthy, got my sleep on track, etc. but beside maybe a 3 month period, I am not sure I really slept sober very often.

Any advice, supplements, comments are welcome. Thanks.

 

[neversickanymore]

I would give it some time and pay attention to good sleep hygiene. A very short half life sleep aid like lunesta may work well short term, but given its short duration you may still wake up in six hours. Possibly stop drinking so much fluids in the hours leading up to bed time.

 

[kevo1243]

Thank you for the reply. It has now been over 4 weeks and I think I have narrowed the issue down. Everytime I am waking up it is to pee and I absolutely will not fall asleep until I go. The weird thing is a lot of the times I don't feel like I need to urinate, I just know that I do because I woke up. I have tried cutting back on my water intake throughout the day or I just stopping drinking liquids 3-5 hours before I go to bed.

Before I make the decision to go to a DR, I want to quit the edibles and get that out of my system. I am also going to change my evening/night routine; I tend to kind of veg out and read/watch TV the last 3-4 hours of the day so instead I will excercise and be more active. I am very aware this could be a serious problem and a medical professional would be a great option, I just want to give it a few more days.

Thanks again for the feedback and more if welcomed from you or anyone else who reads this.

 

[Xorkoth]

It took me months to get back to easy sleep patterns after kicking opiates. I wouldn't assume a serious medical issue yet. Your idea to avoid screen time before bed is great. The blue light spectrum from screens is well-documented to cause disruptions in sleep patterns (really it's best to not have any of that after dark. There is a program called f.lux that will automatically face out the blue spectrum after sunset and bring it back after sunrise, every day, making the color all more towards red, but it helps and it's free). Reading a book should be okay. Plenty of exercise in the day will also help as your body will be more tired. I find that L-tryptophan and L-theanine (two amino acids) are both great for relaxing. take them just before getting in bed and turn the light off and try to sleep, or I also sometimes read for 15 minutes first. They are both relaxing and sleep-promoting. As is 50mg of diphenhydramine (bendryl), which is a drug, yes, but it's not addictive. I'm tapering from phenibut right now and this is my nightly routine because on off days it can be hard to get to sleep.

 

[kevo1243]

Awesome, thank you Shadowmeister for the tips. I went out and bought the 2 amino acids and will be using them tonight. As far as f. lux & benadryl go, I'm pretty sure my computer and phone have the exact same technology as that already and obviously I can't use the software for my TV, but I downloaded it and will check it out. Benadryl has the same ingredient as ZZZQuil minus the allergy stuff. I find taking 25 mg of that is the most I can take without feeling super groggy/out of it the next day. I think every time I had tried benadryl in the past I got that same grogginess, so while diphenhydramine really helps, it also is hindering a bit too. I haven't been using it every night but I do ultimately want to stop using the ZZZquil as well.

I will post an update either tomorrow or in the next few days with how I am feeling and any observations I have made. I never really got too into Phenibut but I'm sure the taper is exteremly difficult and uncomfortable so I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks again.

 

[Xorkoth]

Diphenhydramine is the part that's for allergy, and also what is in Tylenol PM. But yeah same as what's in Zzzquil, I think. In any case cool, the amino acids are not drug-like but they are relaxing and they help me to fall asleep for sure. Melatonin can also be useful, and if you have residual restlessness, magnesium helps with restlessness and muscle tension (which is why epsom salt baths are better than regular baths). I have a powdered calcium-magnesium supplement that I can mix into water. I get RLS sometimes naturally and it really does help.

 

[RedRum OG]

After years addicted to opiates, benzos, and all sorts of CNS depressants, I can confidently say the best way to get healthy, regular sleep is this: exercise 5-6 days a week, weight lifting especially, eat healthy, and keep a regularly sleep sschedule.


Exercise will reset you. Do it. It will suck for a while, but it could become the way you find your greatest relief.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yes, absolutely, regular exercise is the #1 most important thing. Not only does it aid your body in repairing the endorphin system that opiates fuck up, it makes you feel better in other ways. Being in shape just makes everything in life feel better, regardless of your situation, and it also makes you feel better about yourself, the way you look, your capabilities, and so on.

 

[Mafioso]

Check out Joe Rogan's podcast with Matthew Walker, he is a sleep expert and has a lot of interesting things to say.

Melatonin 2-3 hours before bed will help. Melatonin is the hormone your body produces to help regulate wake/sleep cycles. It is based on light so artificial lights from electronics will impact it.

I would avoid exercise/strenuous activity 2-3 hours before bed as well. Waking up early and exercising can help, but if you exercise too late in the evening it will probably have opposite effects. Find something relaxing that you can do before bed to help prepare yourself for sleep. Things like meditation, journaling, and reading are great. Watching videos or movies isn't bad per say, but you'll want to be in darkness at least an hour before you plan on sleeping.

The body sleeps best in temperatures roughly between 60-70F. Things like showering or bathing before bed can help by lowering your core temperature, something that needs to happen before sleep.

Above all, imo, is giving yourself time and sticking to healthy habits. Always going to bed at the same time, starting to prepare for bed at the same time, and staying in complete darkness even when you can't sleep, and so on. These things, combined with patience over time, should be enough to bring your sleep cycle back to normal.

 

[kevo1243]

Awesome thank you so much Mafioso; I'll check that podcast out. I appreciate all of your responses. I was not aware that you should take melatonin that early before bed. I have a cheap brand from one of the big name stores, so maybe I'll try buying a better quality brand as well.

So as far as an update goes, I stopped the edibles and the ZZZquil and I'm assuming I was having some sort of withdrawal from the edibles because I haven't slept that great the last couple nights - I woke up sweating when the temperature was 68 degrees, which is cooler for my home because I live in Arizona. I'm going to set my thermostat to one consistent temperature going forward to keep everything routine like many of you have mentioned.

The L-Theanine has been great for my anxiety and mind running at night so, I appreciate the advice. I have been drinking protein shakes with a decent amount of L-Tryptophan so I am not sure how that might be interacting the supplement at night, but I have taken them together each time so it could be either one.

One interesting tidbit I once heard dealing with sleep issues was that astronauts will look at the last minutes of light during the sunset or the breaking light of the sunrise depending on where they were located. By doing this, it would somehow signal to their body when it is time for sleep which would increase the production of melatonin. I'm sure it is regulating the circadian rhythm. It was either East vs West coast or I think more likely Northern vs Southern hemisphere I really can't remember but I do remember for me in Arizona it would be watching the sunset.

As far as exercising goes, I injured my hip and have been doing a regular physical therapy type routine each day(its called Egoscue and it fixes your posture) - which I would say is considerably more difficult than your typical physical therapy. I've done it every day for over a month, and have been hiking once every other week. The last two days I went on a decent hike each day, and then yesterday went to the gym and lifted weights on top of the hike and my PT routine. I have a Fitbit(I track diet, sleep, water, etc. with it), so I am into being active but wasn't really physically capable recently. Now that I am pretty much healthy I plan on continuing this type of daily physical activity.

I just covered my window completely, covered or turned off all excess lights for sleep tonight. Between that, the recent activity, and the regulated temperature I am hopeful I will get a good nights sleep tonight. Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[VastEmpty]

Before I make the decision to go to a DR, I want to quit the edibles and get that out of my system. I am also going to change my evening/night routine; I tend to kind of veg out and read/watch TV the last 3-4 hours of the day so instead I will excercise and be more active. I am very aware this could be a serious problem and a medical professional would be a great option, I just want to give it a few more days.

Kevo -

i also eat edibles and recently quit entirely. The only real noticeable impact for me is a slight nausea feeling all the time for about three days after I quit and sleep issues. I take trazadone for sleep and it works well at low doses for me when I need it to sleep a few nights a month. I realize you don?t want to go to your doctor until the THC is out of your system - depending on how much you eat and how much body fat you have, that could be awhile (1-2 months from what I?ve read, you can google stories about how long it takes to get out of your system). Do you think your doctor would pee test your if you went in for sleep issues?

One other thing to consider, 6 hours of sleep isn?t uncommon. Some individuals only sleep 6 hours a night. I?m not sure how old you are, but it is more common as we get older. It could be that it is the right amount of time for your body right now. Do you get tired throughout the day?

- VE

 

[Mafioso]

Matthew Walker goes into more depth about it, but basically, THC disrupts the sleep cycles and prevents you from going into REM sleep. Not all sleep is equal and psychoactive substances can affect quality of sleep. I personally really enjoy cannabis, but after hearing Walker talk about some of its negative impacts on sleep, and how that translates into other areas of life, it makes me far more hesitant. One of the reasons I enjoy it is using it as a sleep aid, but that seems a bit counterproductive now. It's similarly true of alcohol and a lot of sleep aids. The best sleep you can get is natural sleep, so even if you're getting less it is probably better quality.

 

[kevo1243]

Bingo, I think you nailed it Mafioso. I can look at my sleep patterns on my Fitbit and the amount of REM sleep is almost always really low, it is the cycle of sleep that usually get interrupted each night for me, and I always notice a correlation between feeling tired and the lack of REM sleep the night before. Two nights ago I had a terrible sleep and did not go into REM while last night I decided I needed to catch up on sleep and ate a couple bites of an edible out of desperation. It seems clear to me now that this is most likely a major factor in my sleeping issue and I just need to go cold turkey and suck up lack of sleep for a few nights.

VastEmpty I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the DR. I have a medical marijuana card and I do not care if I get drug tested from my doctor. I have no problem going to the doctor, the only hesitation is that I'm afraid he might see the lack of sleep as a bladder or other problem as opposed to it being do to withdrawal symptoms and I just need a natural readjustment to my sleep. With that being said, I have taken Trazodone as well in the past when I went to rehab 7-8 years ago, and I can honestly say it was absolutely amazing. So I guess I am kind of in the middle, on one hand I know if I could go to the DR and get the right treatment could help, but at the same time after I read all the feedback on here I am still hopeful I can get this fixed on my own. And BTW I am pretty skinny due to my years of bad habits and then the hip injury so the MJ shouldn't be in my system for too long.

I am 29 almost 30 so I understand I am getting to an age where 6 hours is more common but I think I am still young enough to get 8 more often then I do(or even 9-10), it basically never happens anymore. My biggest issue with this is just not feeling great when I wake up or "refreshed". On a typical night I fall asleep between 8:30-9:30 and wake up 4:30-5:00, which doesn't seem bad at all but I feel terrible most morning when I get up, it takes me awhile to get going, I can't fall asleep and wake up at the same times consistently and compared to my past experience with Trazodone I just know this is not quality sleep.

TLDR. It seems my THC intake is correlated with my sleep or lack of sleep. My plan is to go completely cold turkey on edibles all week on top of excercising each day, continuing to eat well, and keeping a strict routine. I have a medical card so I am not worried about going to the DR or getting tested, I am just maybe not totally ready - still hopeful it can be solved naturally.

 

[kevo1243]

So I've listened to the first 10 minutes of the podcast and I felt compelled to comment on it. I think the nail is being hit on the head with a hammer with THC & REM sleep.

I rarely dream or remember them because my REM cycles are always short or nonexistent when I do dream vividly(every once and awhile) those are the nights I feel the most refreshed. I think my issue isn't necessarily quantity per se but more so quality. And this has been a common problem for me for at least 4+ years now. It truly has impacted my personal & professional life.

Two nights ago I had a terrible nights sleep(approx. 3 hours total) and at that point I had been THC free for about exactly two days. Even though I had very short, poor quality sleep my Fitbit shows I went into REM for 4 minutes, and I remember the dream so vividly. When I woke up and saw that it said 4 minutes in REM I was shocked because it so was real and vivid it felt like it was hours long. I do acknowledge that the Fitbit readings are really just an estimate, but I really think its the REM sleep rebound Mathew Walker is talking about, just starting to push its way through.

I will be interested to see, if I am correct, how intense my dreams are once my system is cleaned out from THC. I suspect I could have anywhere from 4-6 years worth of build up because there was always something I was abusing that had a direct impact on my sleep and specifically REM. I will keep a journal of my dreams if anyone is interested in hearing about them going forward.

 

[kevo1243]

This will probably my last update on here, at least for a while. That should tell you I have had some success. The last two nights have been the best, most high-quality sleep I have had in some time. I can just feel it mentally, physically, emotionally. Last night was just under 7 hours, with approximately 15% in REM, 19% deep and 54% light; the night before 19% REM, 11% deep, 58% light.*

I know these are estimates from a device but what I can tell you is I hadn't spent over 10% of any night in REM sleep for a significant amount of time. I also look at the charts of my cycles and REM isn't getting interrupted like before; I can now see it cycle to either deep, light, and back to REM or whatever the combo. I only woke up to pee once both nights and I barely remember them. I even drank maybe 30% of my water intake yesterday within an hour before bed.

I also had some very vivid dreams. I think I had a dream in a dream and I thought I was awake when I really wasn't. It is pretty crazy when thinking back on it now, and I remember a lot of it pretty well.

There have been a lot of different factors and things I have tried each night to achieve better sleep, but the biggest contributions I can come up with are this:
- Being consistent with bed time. I almost alway woke up at the same time no matter when I went to bed so by consistently going to bed at the same time it pushed my body back into the routine.
- Reassurance from the feedback on here to have patience and just kind of trust the process.

Finally, I wanted to add my observations about sleep in general, especially after having more context from listening to Mathew Walker. 1st) THC helps sleep and relaxation no question, but extended use will most likely affect your sleep whether you realize it or not. Abuse will absolutely interfere, and in the end, your sleep will be in a lot worse of a place than when you started. Natural sleep is really the only way to go in my eyes(sorry insomniacs I can't help you there), especially knowing how crucial it is. 2nd) When it comes to sleep quality, there is no question I can see a connection with deep and REM sleep. When I got a lot of deep but not REM, I could wake up more refresh, but something still seemed missing. I believe during REM your brain is sorting out all sorts of emotions, thoughts, and feelings and it really takes a toll on your mind by not allowing this process to happen, especially naturally. When I did not get a lot of deep sleep, even if the length and amount of REM were good, it is still hard to feel refreshed. It isn't necessarily lack of physical energy, but it feels that way, and for me it is almost like having my natural body/earth energy(if something like this exists) just zapped from me, and I have to find a way to replenish it before I can accomplish anything; either through better quality sleep or other methods(meditations, etc).

I wanted to thank everyone for their support and advice. I will continue to hang around this forum for support and to give support. If anyone has any questions for me I'd be happy to answer; comments are welcome as well!

TLDR. Feel like my sleep is starting to get consistent and regulated. Biggest contributing factors were consistent sleep hygiene and peace of mind from the support on the forum. Takeaways from lack of sleep: REM is important for emotional baggage & deep is important for feeling your true, energized self. Both can be draining but I felt more refreshed when I had more deep. Overall quality sleep in all areas and cycles is EXTREMELY important.

* - The missing % is time awake.

 

[Xorkoth]

That's awesome, I'm really glad. This will be valuable information for others seeking better sleep after drug addiction.