Could 75.5% Everclear extract Psilocybin?

[Lysergaman]

I came across a couple threads where people discussed the theoretical extraction of Psilocybin using 190-200 proof everclear. However, some states only sell 151 proof everclear. Would something like that still work in theory, or is higher proof alcohol banned to prevent someone from attempting a Chemistry project like this? My apologies if this topic has already been discussed.

 

[Xorkoth]

Even plain water would extract psilocybin, though it would start to break down relatively quickly. Alcohol is certainly better in the sense that it protects more from breaking down and also protects it from microbial growth if kept in solution (though I wouldn't recommend keeping in solution very long, better to evaporate and have a dry extract). It also evaporates faster. But yeah, 151 proof or 190 proof, either way is going to be about the same. Or even 80 proof wouldn't be bad. It would also be best to add a bit of an acid of some sort (vinegar would work), to the solution, in case the active alkaloids are present as freebases, to convert them to salts. I believe tryptamine freebases are soluble in alcohol but they're not in water and also salts are more stable.

 

[Lysergaman]

Even plain water would extract psilocybin, though it would start to break down relatively quickly. Alcohol is certainly better in the sense that it protects more from breaking down and also protects it from microbial growth if kept in solution (though I wouldn't recommend keeping in solution very long, better to evaporate and have a dry extract). It also evaporates faster. But yeah, 151 proof or 190 proof, either way is going to be about the same. Or even 80 proof wouldn't be bad. It would also be best to add a bit of an acid of some sort (vinegar would work), to the solution, in case the active alkaloids are present as freebases, to convert them to salts. I believe tryptamine freebases are soluble in alcohol but they're not in water and also salts are more stable.

Thanks for the info. I read that some people use lemon juice to get the pH to around 3, do you think that would work just as well as Vinegar? Also would someone just need to add the acid of choice to the alcohol and then evaporate the whole solution after it has been sitting for a few days? Or do you think mushrooms would need to sit in the solution for longer?

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Water works just fine. Just dry your shrooms then when required, simmer in a pan of water for 10 - 15 minutes, strain, then drink. Comes on like a rocket in about 10 minutes.

I once prepared a load of shrooms in this manner, then decided not to do them so I poured the solution into a stoppered bottle, placed in the fridge and pretty much forgot about it.

About a year later, I decided to try it. I ended up having one of my most intense trips ever - literally a ++++. Totally broke through to another universe.

Now I'm not recommending this because of the risks of bacterial and fungal contamination, but the psilocybin had definitely NOT lost any potency...

 

[Xorkoth]

Oh yeah for a single dose I'd just use water but I assumed the OP was trying to make a dry extract.

And yeah lemon juice would work just as well although if you're trying to dry the extract it would end up quite sticky and goopy because of the sugars, so a bit of acetic acid (vinegar) would be better. The PH doesn't have to be so low, either.

 

[Lysergaman]

Oh yeah for a single dose I'd just use water but I assumed the OP was trying to make a dry extract.

And yeah lemon juice would work just as well although if you're trying to dry the extract it would end up quite sticky and goopy because of the sugars, so a bit of acetic acid (vinegar) would be better. The PH doesn't have to be so low, either.

Yeah, I should have specified but I was interested in a dry extraction because that seems better for storage and for people with a very weak stomach. Acetic acid sounds perfect, but i was wondering how someone would figure out what ratio of vinegar to everclear to use. If it does not have to be as acidic as 3pH is there some other pH to shoot for? Or does it not really matter as long as it is a little acidic?

 

[Xorkoth]

Converting freebase to an acid requires very little acid, entirely dependent on how much weight of alkaloid there is to convert. I used to convert 100mg of AMT freebase into HCl with 1-2 drops of muriatic acid which is 30% hydrochloric acid, very little was needed. There's no direct comparison there but the point is it required very little. With vinegar, it doesn't matter if there is unreacted vinegar left, it will just make your extract smell a little like vinegar. Maybe someone will chime in with more, but if I were you I'd just put a teaspoon or 2 in there.

 

[Lysergaman]

Converting freebase to an acid requires very little acid, entirely dependent on how much weight of alkaloid there is to convert. I used to convert 100mg of AMT freebase into HCl with 1-2 drops of muriatic acid which is 30% hydrochloric acid, very little was needed. There's no direct comparison there but the point is it required very little. With vinegar, it doesn't matter if there is unreacted vinegar left, it will just make your extract smell a little like vinegar. Maybe someone will chime in with more, but if I were you I'd just put a teaspoon or 2 in there.

Sounds simple enough, thanks! Excess vinegar should evaporate pretty easily, so overshooting it a little sounds like its probably not a big issue. So does Psilocybin come in Free base form? I saw a post where someone said Psilocin could be in free base form but Psilocybin would not be, but they didnt elaborate further. Other than that, I havent found much material on the topic, so I wasnt sure if that person was incorrect or not.

 

[Bagseed]

Psilocybin comes as a zwitterion because the phosphoric acid ester still has another proton to give... hence it is polar enough to be extracted with water. there is no such thing as a psilocybin salt or psilocybin freebase, because psilocybin is the acid and the base in one molecule:

 

[Xorkoth]

I didn't realize that, thanks. However mushrooms also contain psilocin, no?

 

[Bagseed]

yes they do (to varying degree afaik), but I don't know if psilocin in mushrooms is in the freebase form or as a salt.

 

[Lysergaman]

yes they do (to varying degree afaik), but I don't know if psilocin in mushrooms is in the freebase form or as a salt.

I found this on DMT-Nexus:
technically, there's no such thing as a free base of psilocin or psilocybin, because there is at least onecharged moiety (functional group), whether it be the hydroxy/phosphoryloxy or amine, across the pH range.
free base alkaloids are uncharged. the various charge states of psilocin and psilocybin make them tricky to work with, because they can remain bound to other fungal biomolecules through electrostatic interactions. using uncharged solvents such as ethanol and methanol does nothing to separate them.

I have heard of people making water acidic for a better CWE. Even if there is not any free bases to convert into salt, would it still be a good idea to make the alcohol slightly acidic? Do you think it would help to extract alkaloids?

 

[Bagseed]

while the phenolic OH-group on psilocin can technically give off a proton, the acidity of such an alcohol is so low that in fact the equilibrium state of this reaction will me more or less only on the undissociated side of things. so regarding psilocin, there is s state of the molecule you would call "freebase". in aqueous solution, at low pH, you would have a salt, because the base psilocin would have reacted with the acid.

regarding acidifying alcohol for extraction, I can't say if it makes sense. mushroom extracts seem to be tricky to produce anything else than a crude product.

 

[Lysergaman]

while the phenolic OH-group on psilocin can technically give off a proton, the acidity of such an alcohol is so low that in fact the equilibrium state of this reaction will me more or less only on the undissociated side of things. so regarding psilocin, there is s state of the molecule you would call "freebase". in aqueous solution, at high pH, you would have a salt, because the base psilocin would have reacted with the acid.

regarding acidifying alcohol for extraction, I can't say if it makes sense. mushroom extracts seem to be tricky to produce anything else than a crude product.

So by crude product do you mean impure, and not like the crystals you see online? Even if it is not very pure wouldnt you have all the important alkaloids extracted after soaking the mushrooms for a few days? Im more concerned about losing alkaloids, then I am about the purity

 

[Aeon Psyche]

All I remember i once did such extraction and used the freezer for some reason, idk, the next day i had Crystals. I didn't use any alcohol. Making tea from shrooms is probably the easiest technique.

 

[G_Chem]

Ok...

Ethanol (everckear) can work at varying proofs but from my reading it sounds like many have degradation of the goods when using ethanol. Methanol is said to work better and based on research I think it?s been found to be the best solvent for extraction.

Keep this in mind when extracting.. Even with a good extraction your only looking at a 25-50% yield. The risk of degradation is high. The compounds we seek are active in very low doses making losses higher to sloppy technique and glassware. You likely will degrade most of the Psilocinz

Now don?t get me wrong I love extractions, but psilocybin mushrooms are just not worth it. There one of a few drugs that I think should just stay as is. You only need .5-3g depending, and they can be easily made into a tea.

@Fubar- I?ve noticed degraded tryptamines tend to be more potent and ?rougher? around the edges than fresher batches. This sounds like what happened to you..

@Aeon- Those crystals weren?t Psilocin or psilocybin, those dosages are too low and their solubility too high to have any sort of precipitation taking place.

-GC

 

[Lysergaman]

Ok...

Ethanol (everckear) can work at varying proofs but from my reading it sounds like many have degradation of the goods when using ethanol. Methanol is said to work better and based on research I think it?s been found to be the best solvent for extraction.

Keep this in mind when extracting.. Even with a good extraction your only looking at a 25-50% yield. The risk of degradation is high. The compounds we seek are active in very low doses making losses higher to sloppy technique and glassware. You likely will degrade most of the Psilocinz

Now don?t get me wrong I love extractions, but psilocybin mushrooms are just not worth it. There one of a few drugs that I think should just stay as is. You only need .5-3g depending, and they can be easily made into a tea.

@Fubar- I?ve noticed degraded tryptamines tend to be more potent and ?rougher? around the edges than fresher batches. This sounds like what happened to you..

@Aeon- Those crystals weren?t Psilocin or psilocybin, those dosages are too low and their solubility too high to have any sort of precipitation taking place.

-GC

So if an extraction would likely have a 25-50% yield, would you get more out of it than that if you just used water to make tea instead? I have heard about people using Methanol and other solvents that arent food safe but it?s kinda sketched me out. Is there any chance that there would be some toxic residue left behind if you used something like Naptha or Methanol? I know pure stuff should evaporate cleanly, but I have no experience in this area so I like being cautious.