Seligiline for gently boosting motivation

psyloq

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A few months ago I thought long and hard about my present place in life, where I'm headed and how long I have left in my career, and decided to run a very simple experiment. It consists of allocating a minimum of 4h daily Mon-Fri and 8h each on Sat and Sun to developing a software product I've devised. Trouble is I have a very intellectually demanding job, also in the software development field, that requires consistent, dedicated, focus, and is my primary focus. On the plus side, I work from home on a freelancing basis which gives me the flexibility to schedule the work week as I please, and my employer cares only about met objectives at the end of the week.

I started off my experiment sometime last summer with great results. I quickly got lots done and had a prototype working in no time. Was also more or less sticking to the 4h/8h schedule, which I found surprising. However, although I was putting in the hours, it quickly became emotionally painful to do so in addition to working an intense full time job, but I somehow soldiered on. Eventually I began faltering and not putting in the hours once or twice a week, which worsened with time. A few months in, it got to the point where my experiment effectively stalled because I lacked the motivation to work on it.

If anything, I just want to finish the thing. I have tried a couple of supplements that I have found provided a boost to motivation, however either a tolerance developed quickly, I stopped feeling the effects, or there were nasty sides involved. An example of this is Modafinil. When only the positive effects on focus, motivation and productivity are considered, this is an amazing drug! Sadly it also gives me crippling anxiety, and find that the effect only lasts about 6 to 8h (which is problematic as I have to take it first thing in the morning as to not affect sleep); also could only take it a max of 3 times a week to counter tolerance build-up. The boost to motivation was amazing but the negative sides forced me to discontinue use. I widened my search and considered amphetamines like Adderal and others, but the potential for neurotoxic effects and addiction worry me. Also can't be doing with potential mania/psychotic episodes. Whatever I settle on must be gentle acting as to be almost imperceptible with barely any sides to contend with.

This leads me to a drug that caught my attention: seligiline, also known as L-deprenyl. Does anyone have first hand experience with this drug? Due to the way it works as an irreversible MAO-B inhibitor, is it possible to do a 1 or 2 month course and still experience positive side effects for awhile after? If so, how long does this last for after end of treatment and is it possible to cycle it? Assuming a dosage at or under recommended therapeutic dosages, are there any negative side effects?
 
Between the options youve suggested, I would absolutely go with adderall over seligiline.

Amphetamine neurotoxicity is arguably a non-issue at medical dosages which I believe as well based on the literature available. Mania and psychosis isnt really a realistic side effect unless you are many standard deviations outside the typical person or youre taking large amounts and going long periods without sleep.

MAOI inhibitors, however, have a significant side effect profile and can interact negatively with LOTS of foods and other medications/supplements which is why they are rarely used anymore. Between the two youve mentioned, adderall would be much safer imo.

If youre looking for something gentler then Id research nootropic compounds like the racetams, noopept, or potentially NALT in combo with something else. Personally, DMAA/DMHA are my favorite motivating stims next to adderall.
 
I have a lot of experience using substances to motivate myself to do work that I think I want to do but have a hard time actually doing. If I'm honest, my motivation without substances has been more theoretical than actual for as long as I can remember.

I have used modafinil/armodafinil combined with phenibut to motivate myself to do development work in my own company on and off for at least 2 years now, although I'm currently taking a break from phenibut and trying to cut down massively on the modafinil - and have been a whole lot less production as a result.

I would not bother with selegiline, I take a small dose daily as a neuroprotective and self-prescribed preventative treatment for a condition I have, (1.25mg) and honestly I'd be hard pressed to say I noticed any perceptible psychoactive effects. I think to really "feel" something you'd need to be taking doses close to MAO-A inhibition which is when you have to start worrying about hypertensive crises and dietary stuff. Also, supposedly, a small percentage of the population are naturally more susceptible to hypertensive crises at lower doses in combination with other substances. Supposedly no MAOI is 100% selective and a doctor I tried to discuss this with once was very critical of what I was doing. I did not enjoy speaking to this one specific doctor, but, although I have never had any reason to even think about experimenting with higher doses, I just don't believe that they would be any more effective than other, non-MAOI options. Honestly, selegiline would be a miracle drug if it was.

What I did basically was graduate through the nootropics from piracetam and other racetams and a choline source (which are very placeboey, but some find quite effective), phenylpiracetam (definitely a dopaminergic stimulant) at which point I also combined with phenibut (for me, honestly, phenibut IS nootropic - it's hotly debated if it really counts as a nootropic and comes with a whole host of potential dangers which are not neglible) then finally modafinil/armodafinil. I've since tried methamphetamine, dextroamphetamine, racemic street speed, but honestly as far as focus enhancers I've not found anything which improves upon modafinil. Dextroamphetamine is, I would say, as good as modafinil+phenibut but it lasts a much shorter time and therefore if you want to focus a long time and are prone to redosing, this might be a worse choice.

Modafinil makes me anxious too, sometimes - combining with phenibut or kratom helps, however combining with kratom gives me a weird feeling and more of a sudden comedown since it's shorter lasting. Kratom also perceptibly craps out within a day for me after which redosing will not help until I have slept.

Honestly I stopped using phenibut because I convinced myself it had become a crutch substance for me and made me less socially brave when I wasn't on it, but I'm currently considering starting to use again, because in the months since I stopped all that's really changed in my life is that my work ethic - when I'm sitting in front of my computer, alone - has dropped through the floor... I never dosed more than a few days a week, never really increased my dose, I mean, I feel like I must have quit for a reason and admittedly maybe sometimes it made it harder getting out of my front door for whatever I had to do, but retrospectively I think any difference to my life I think it might have made was a lot less than I thought. I dunno, YMMV, to be clear also I am talking about phenibut+moda to counter any modafinil induced anxiety, not phenibut alone. In general stacking too many drugs together to counter the negative effects of one or the other I think is not good practice, so I am feeling a little uncertain about how harm-reduction oriented my advice here is... but for me I never had an issue with spiralling doses or using more frequently than I thought was good for me. I would advise starting lower on the nootropic ladder first though as has been suggested - some kind of racetam and a choline source is a good place to start.
 
A few months ago I thought long and hard about my present place in life, where I'm headed and how long I have left in my career, and decided to run a very simple experiment. It consists of allocating a minimum of 4h daily Mon-Fri and 8h each on Sat and Sun to developing a software product I've devised. Trouble is I have a very intellectually demanding job, also in the software development field, that requires consistent, dedicated, focus, and is my primary focus. On the plus side, I work from home on a freelancing basis which gives me the flexibility to schedule the work week as I please, and my employer cares only about met objectives at the end of the week.

I started off my experiment sometime last summer with great results. I quickly got lots done and had a prototype working in no time. Was also more or less sticking to the 4h/8h schedule, which I found surprising. However, although I was putting in the hours, it quickly became emotionally painful to do so in addition to working an intense full time job, but I somehow soldiered on. Eventually I began faltering and not putting in the hours once or twice a week, which worsened with time. A few months in, it got to the point where my experiment effectively stalled because I lacked the motivation to work on it.

If anything, I just want to finish the thing. I have tried a couple of supplements that I have found provided a boost to motivation, however either a tolerance developed quickly, I stopped feeling the effects, or there were nasty sides involved. An example of this is Modafinil. When only the positive effects on focus, motivation and productivity are considered, this is an amazing drug! Sadly it also gives me crippling anxiety, and find that the effect only lasts about 6 to 8h (which is problematic as I have to take it first thing in the morning as to not affect sleep); also could only take it a max of 3 times a week to counter tolerance build-up. The boost to motivation was amazing but the negative sides forced me to discontinue use. I widened my search and considered amphetamines like Adderal and others, but the potential for neurotoxic effects and addiction worry me. Also can't be doing with potential mania/psychotic episodes. Whatever I settle on must be gentle acting as to be almost imperceptible with barely any sides to contend with.

This leads me to a drug that caught my attention: seligiline, also known as L-deprenyl. Does anyone have first hand experience with this drug? Due to the way it works as an irreversible MAO-B inhibitor, is it possible to do a 1 or 2 month course and still experience positive side effects for awhile after? If so, how long does this last for after end of treatment and is it possible to cycle it? Assuming a dosage at or under recommended therapeutic dosages, are there any negative side effects?

Observe healthy lifestyle practice inclusive of optimal nutrition and the body will do the rest you don't need polypharmacy..
 
^ Definitely also very true. As much as I am a fan, autopolypharmaceutical techniques are in many ways the lazier way. ;)
 
At the same time a healthy diet and balanced lifestyle many times wont enable people to push into lengthy and strenuous projects, grad programs, etc. Otherwise all my friends in med school wouldnt be eating adderall. A full work week (assuming 40 hours but likely more) on top of 36 hours a week of project work for months on end is something few people could keep up even with added motivational supplements so props for the work so far OP.

No one actually needs any of the drugs discussed on this board but driven people see the end goal and use any means necessary to get there
 
At the same time a healthy diet and balanced lifestyle many times wont enable people to push into lengthy and strenuous projects, grad programs, etc. Otherwise all my friends in med school wouldn't be eating adderall. A full work week (assuming 40 hours but likely more) on top of 36 hours a week of project work for months on end is something few people could keep up even with added motivational supplements so props for the work so far OP.

No one actually needs any of the drugs discussed on this board but driven people see the end goal and use any means necessary to get there

If your friends are in Med school they should know better..!! Unfortunately modern medical practice doesn't account for healthy nutrition, which is a concern, as their only option for patients is polypharmacy, which usually is due to previous polypharmacy.. This seems to create an ever increasing spiral of ill health unable to address the huge issue today of chronic disease..

Hundreds of biochemical pathways require micronutrients, which are ~30-40 essential vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and fatty acids, that we must get from our diet. In fact, approximately 22% of the genes that encode for enzymes (which make energy, make antioxidants, repair damage etc.) require micronutrients as cofactors, which means they need them to function properly.

Without these micronutrients, these enzymes dysfunction and can lead to acute disease as well as diseases of aging. In order to prevent acute disease, daily recommended intakes (DRI) of these micronutrients have been set to ensure we get adequate amounts of them. However, we know that we are not meeting these RDAs.

When you visit your local GP you don't get nutritional advice, most of us are nutrient deficient mainly due to lack of knowledge and information that is incorrect, such as "Healthy whole grains, or low fat" bollocks..

If you wish optimal neurological function supply your brain with precursor nutrition not drugs...
 
Good morning GF.

Do you have specific literature/reading material on these 30-40 micronutrients and food sources/quantities required, or can it be found in the links you have previously sent to me and posted on the forum?
 
Good morning GF.

Do you have specific literature/reading material on these 30-40 micronutrients and food sources/quantities required, or can it be found in the links you have previously sent to me and posted on the forum?

Here's a few to get you started:



Low micronutrient intake may accelerate the degenerative diseases of aging through allocation of scarce micronutrients by triage:

https://www.pnas.org/content/103/47/17589.full

Many studies have consistently found that decreasing food intake has profound changes on genes expression:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884086/

​Heat stress, such as from using the sauna, activates FOXO3 as well as other mediators of stress tolerance known as heat shock proteins:

https://www.nature.com/articles/1209086

Exercise slows telomere shortening by lowering overall inflammation, as does abstention from refined fructose:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18227361
 
Really interesting stuff! Thanks for your input, everyone.

Guess I shouldn't be surprised that you all agree that Selegiline is pretty much ineffective for the sort of use I intended to give it, and the additional information Swim15 provided on potential side effects is definitely worrying to me as I take a fair amount of supplements on a daily basis.

I've really considered going on Adderal but the many downsides that people who do not have ADHD have to contend with definitely puts me off. Consider the top comment in this Reddit post, as anecdotal as it is, which touches on one of my worries about amphetamine use "that after somewhere around 1-3 weeks, receptors down-regulate and dose-escalation is needed to retain the pro-social, pro-energetic, pro-anxiolytic effects". That there are many references to this I do not find comforting. I guess this is to be expected from stimulants?

As for the family of Racetams, from Piracetam to Aniracetam or Oxyracetam, I've tried them all. And they all suffer from the same problem: eventually a tolerance sets in and dose escalation is inevitable right about until you decide you're turning in to a slave of a chemical to function and must stop. Aniracetam, in particular, left me seriously under my normal cognitive and emotional baselines for over 2 weeks when I realized the massive mistake I'd done.

Of all the supplements I've come in contact with, Noopept is nothing short of amazing though. However, it does not act on the brain's reward system and leaves one's motivation unaltered. Great for focus though and possibly memory performance too.

I should probably think about turning into a Zen master so as to transmutate my emotional state into one characterised by motivation, right? Damn it. I fucking hate it that we are nothing but slaves of our emotions and that our emotions are nothing but the manifestation of electro-chemical interactions in the brain. If only we could positively alter the chemical disposition of our brains without crippling side effects, and we would truly enter a higher existential, cognitive and emotional state.
 
Even if you were able to elevate Chemicals at will, it would still spur the body to revert to homeostasis which would include receptor down regulation and desensitization. There isn't really anything you can take long term to achieve the effects you desire without a tolerance building due to some mechanism.
 
Even if you were able to elevate Chemicals at will, it would still spur the body to revert to homeostasis which would include receptor down regulation and desensitization. There isn't really anything you can take long term to achieve the effects you desire without a tolerance building due to some mechanism.

Ah, Idargue to some extent. Been prescribed adderall for ~5ish years and the same dose is just as effective now as it was then but I think a lot of that comes down to individual physiology.


For the record though I do think that 8/10 issues can be addressed with a serious look at nutrition but also dont think nutrition is going to get the majority of people through long and grueling work routines. You dont just eat right and get the motivating boost of amphetamines to carry you through months or years of 20 hour days. Arguably not a healthy schedule but obviously but high level work and grad programs never are. Cant remember any one of a few dozen friends saying they thought med school and residency was healthy haha
 
Ah, Idargue to some extent. Been prescribed adderall for ~5ish years and the same dose is just as effective now as it was then but I think a lot of that comes down to individual physiology.


For the record though I do think that 8/10 issues can be addressed with a serious look at nutrition but also dont think nutrition is going to get the majority of people through long and grueling work routines. You dont just eat right and get the motivating boost of amphetamines to carry you through months or years of 20 hour days. Arguably not a healthy schedule but obviously but high level work and grad programs never are. Cant remember any one of a few dozen friends saying they thought med school and residency was healthy haha

It's got me through for the last 42 years...
 
It's got me through for the last 42 years...


Very true but everyone also has very different biology. I think it would get people much further than they often believe it would but I also dont think diet and exercise, even immaculately perfect, would get most people through grueling grad school programs or similar. I know I wouldnt ever make it without adderall and my diet is about as balanced and varied as I can make it

Either way, I do enjoy discussions on how to strive for better both with and without added pharmaceuticals
 
Very true but everyone also has very different biology. I think it would get people much further than they often believe it would but I also dont think diet and exercise, even immaculately perfect, would get most people through grueling grad school programs or similar. I know I wouldnt ever make it without adderall and my diet is about as balanced and varied as I can make it

Either way, I do enjoy discussions on how to strive for better both with and without added pharmaceuticals

Remember you are in america where levels of micronutrients are much below other parts of the world due to petroleum based fertilizers and glyphosate decimating your soil biology.. If no nutrients are present in soil, there will be none if your food..
 
Oh yeah I agree entirely but thats sort of a moot point at the end of the day since theres nothing that can realistically be done about it. At this point its just mitigation for many people
 
Oh yeah I agree entirely but thats sort of a moot point at the end of the day since theres nothing that can realistically be done about it. At this point its just mitigation for many people

Emigrate..
 
Of all the supplements I've come in contact with, Noopept is nothing short of amazing though. However, it does not act on the brain's reward system and leaves one's motivation unaltered. Great for focus though and possibly memory performance too.

I should probably think about turning into a Zen master so as to transmutate my emotional state into one characterised by motivation, right? Damn it. I fucking hate it that we are nothing but slaves of our emotions and that our emotions are nothing but the manifestation of electro-chemical interactions in the brain. If only we could positively alter the chemical disposition of our brains without crippling side effects, and we would truly enter a higher existential, cognitive and emotional state.
Noopept is great - however for me it lowers libido and is sometimes a little too relaxing as far as focus enhancement goes.

Don't discount the benefits of actually doing what you have suggested, or at least trying to, ie, "turning into a Zen master". ;) What you describe as far as not being a slave to your emotions and the ceaseless turbulence of thought is one of the main principles of Buddhist philosophy of mind (at least as far as I understand it, I'm not exactly an expert)... and it's also one of the side effects of sustained meditation practices. The minds of Buddhist monks and the effects of meditation have been studied and there are clear, measurable changes in brain activity and structure as well as in emotional stability, focus, working memory, resistance to PTSD, and a myriad of other things that one would generally attribute to higher overall psychological stability.
 
Has anybody here actually used selegiline for depression? I want to get my mother on it for her treatment resistant major depression, and i've read good things, but they were all from people online that used the patch. The patch is really freaking expensive, esp for a drug thats been around for 20 years. even with my mothers insurance its unaffordable, her insurance is maxed out on the other 15 freaking pills she needs to take. So i'm wondering if anyone has experience with actual antidepressant doses of the tablet for some time frame, and if i could get some feedback it would help. thanks
 
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