Cinnamylidene-Bislysergamide from LSA

[Lysergaman]

I have been interested in the theoretical conversion of LSA from HBWR or MG seeds to the safer adduct Cinnamylidene-Bislysergamide. There does not seem to be much information on the subject, but it seems like a researcher would simply need to extract the LSA from the seeds somehow and mix in Cinnamylidene extract at a minimum of 1 part Cinnamylidene to 2 parts of LSA. The reaction supposedly occurs at room temperature and without the need for a catalyst. LSA has the potential to treat depression, Cluster Headaches, and other conditions but the nausea and vasoconstriction it causes is a problem. Cinnamylidene-Bislysergamide seems to have somewhat similar effects as LSA but without the troublesome side effects, meaning it probably has a higher liklyhood of becoming an accepted medical treatment. This chemical seems very interesting, so I want to learn more about Cinnamylidene-Bislysergamide, like the pH the reaction occurs in. If anyone has any links or any information on the subject I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Hodor]

Honestly, the whole thing sounds like a crock to me. Amides are poor nucleophiles, so the idea that this reaction would spontaneously occur at room temperature without a catalyst (and using impure raw materials) is kind of a stretch.

 

[Lysergaman]

Honestly, the whole thing sounds like a crock to me. Amides are poor nucleophiles, so the idea that this reaction would spontaneously occur at room temperature without a catalyst (and using impure raw materials) is kind of a stretch.

I would normally be inclined to agree with you, because it just sounds conveniently simple and easy. But I have read numerous anecdotal reports of people claiming that the CDLSA or LSC or whatever had an onset of around 30 minutes and a duration of only a few hours. The timeframe seems to be different than typical LSA (or LSH I suppose). I have also heard that it does not have the nausea or vasoconstriction that is typically associated with LSA. Do you think that is just placebo? Or do you think there is some underlying synergy between Cinnemaldehyde and LSA?

 

[Xorkoth]

I remember reading about using I believe peppermint extract to convert LSA to LSH. I never knew whether that was true or possible, either. I did try it once but the results were inconclusive. But I would say if that conversion is possible, it would give me more hope than this one would be. I don't really have any idea though, myself.

 

[Lysergaman]

I remember reading about using I believe peppermint extract to convert LSA to LSH. I never knew whether that was true or possible, either. I did try it once but the results were inconclusive. But I would say if that conversion is possible, it would give me more hope than this one would be. I don't really have any idea though, myself.

I have heard that as well, but In addition to acetaldehyde you also need Ethanol to convert LSA back to LSH. I read that certain wines have a higher concentration of acetaldehyde than Peppermint does, and the alcohol is already mixed in. The problem with LSH is that it degrades into LSA and acetaldehyde when it is exposed to light, air, or temperatures above 20 degrees Celsius (or 68 degrees Fahrenheit). The benefit to Cinnamylidene-Bilysergamide is that it is much more stable, and I believe it degrades at around 242 Degrees Celsius (or around 467 degrees Fahrenheit). I believe that many people who try to convert LSA back to LSH allow it to degrade again before it is used. Since Cinnamylidene-Bilysergamide is much more stable, I think it would probably be easier to work with but I could be wrong.

 

[Lysergaman]

In case anyone was curious about this, I got more anecdotal information. I have read that the cinnamon extract oil unsurpisingly does not mix well with the water from a CWE. People seem to have better results when they add the cinnamylidene to LSA that is suspended in high proof alcohol (like everclear). Some people who have tried this conversion have said that they make the solution have a pH of 4 with some lemon juice. This is all just heresay until someone actually studies this, but until then I will try to aggregate all the info in one place to make researching this easier

 

[Xorkoth]

Cool, thanks for doing that, perhaps someone will see this who has some advanced knowledge and be able to prove or disprove it. Certainly if it's true, it would be a great thing to know.

 

[Hodor]

I remember reading about using I believe peppermint extract to convert LSA to LSH. I never knew whether that was true or possible, either. I did try it once but the results were inconclusive. But I would say if that conversion is possible, it would give me more hope than this one would be. I don't really have any idea though, myself.

Peppermint oil is mostly menthol, menthone, and menthyl esters, and contains at best traces of acetaldehyde. Wine, as suggested by lysergaman, has an acetaldehyde content of ~50 mg/L - that's 0.005 %(!).

No way that's going to work. Especially since, as I said, amides are shitty nucleophiles (that double-bonded oxygen is drawing away electron density from the nitrogen, making it much less willing to participate in chemical reactions).

Which is kind of a good thing, I guess. If acetaldehyde could just react with any amide willy-nilly, without any catalyst and at very low concentrations, under aqueous conditions, it would be extremely toxic (think formaldehyde).

The only thing more powerful than the placebo effect is the placebo effect in people high on psychedelics.

Edit: Honestly, this basically seems like the psychedelic equivalent of that tweaker myth about people making "string dope" by hanging fibers into vats filled with ammonia and gun blue.

 

[Lysergaman]

Peppermint oil is mostly menthol, menthone, and menthyl esters, and contains at best traces of acetaldehyde. Wine, as suggested by lysergaman, has an acetaldehyde content of ~50 mg/L - that's 0.005 %(!).

No way that's going to work. Especially since, as I said, amides are shitty nucleophiles (that double-bonded oxygen is drawing away electron density from the nitrogen, making it much less willing to participate in chemical reactions).

Which is kind of a good thing, I guess. If acetaldehyde could just react with any amide willy-nilly, without any catalyst and at very low concentrations, under aqueous conditions, it would be extremely toxic (think formaldehyde).

The only thing more powerful than the placebo effect is the placebo effect in people high on psychedelics.

Edit: Honestly, this basically seems like the psychedelic equivalent of that tweaker myth about people making "string dope" by hanging fibers into vats filled with ammonia and gun blue.

Good to know, it can be pretty hard to sort out drug myths and facts. Do you think that LSA would more readily convert to an adduct in an oxygen free environment? I heard one user suggest mixing the Cinnamylidene and the LSA in something like Yogurt to limit oxygen exposure, but if oxygen is a problem I assume a trained chemist would need to use some heavy gas to lessen the oxygen exposure. I have not heard the rumors about String Dope before but upon a cursory reading, it seems like that cook does infact produce some unknown and possibly dangerous drug even if it is not meth. Similarly to that, do you think that Cinnamylidene, LSA, and possibly ethanol could produce some unknown drug even if it is not Cinnamylidene-Bilysergamide? I have also heard some people say that Cinnamylidene can cause vasodilation and can help with nausea by itself so some people seem to think it may just be reducing LSA side effects. All that being said, Psychedelics may just put someone in a suggestible state or something which could make the Placebo effect stronger like you said. Regardless, the placebo effect can be plenty powerful on its own so maybe thats all it is.

 

[cj187]

If I were you I would just forget about the whole cinnamylidene and LSA thing and look into some of the other lysergamides that are out there.

 

[Hodor]

Good to know, it can be pretty hard to sort out drug myths and facts. Do you think that LSA would more readily convert to an adduct in an oxygen free environment? I heard one user suggest mixing the Cinnamylidene and the LSA in something like Yogurt to limit oxygen exposure, but if oxygen is a problem I assume a trained chemist would need to use some heavy gas to lessen the oxygen exposure.

The problem isn't the oxygen from the environment.
I am talking about the fact that while amines can be somewhat reactive (due to the relatively high density of electrons on the nitrogen), amides (like LSA) aren't, because the oxygen that's double-bonded to the carbon next to the nitrogen (within the LSA molecule) is drawing away the electrons. Again, this is a good thing, because were it not for the stability of amide bonds, your body's proteins would quickly cease functioning.

Regarding the proposed reaction with cinnamaldehyde, you're also encountering the problem that it would be a condensation reaction, meaning it proceeds via the formation of water. This means that in an environment that already has plenty of water in it (like yogurt, which is approx. 80% water), the reaction equilibrium is going to shift away from the condensation product.

 

[Lysergaman]

The problem isn't the oxygen from the environment.
I am talking about the fact that while amines can be somewhat reactive (due to the relatively high density of electrons on the nitrogen), amides (like LSA) aren't, because the oxygen that's double-bonded to the carbon next to the nitrogen (within the LSA molecule) is drawing away the electrons. Again, this is a good thing, because were it not for the stability of amide bonds, your body's proteins would quickly cease functioning.

Regarding the proposed reaction with cinnamaldehyde, you're also encountering the problem that it would be a condensation reaction, meaning it proceeds via the formation of water. This means that in an environment that already has plenty of water in it (like yogurt, which is approx. 80% water), the reaction equilibrium is going to shift away from the condensation product.

I figured the Yogurt thing was BS, but I didnt know all that about amides. So thanks for the impromptu Chemisty Lesson! I guess the Cinnamylidene just lessons some of the LSA side effects, and with the Placebo effect people thought they created a new substance

 

[G_Chem]

First off, that gun bluing/crystals myth produces no psychoactive drug whatsoever, it?s been passed down from one tweaker cook to the next probably as a way to fuck with potential rival cooks. It does produce pretty crystals, but salt and sugar can make pretty crystals too, doesn?t mean it?s active.

As for this adduct, I?m in the camp that believes that even IF it is possible, a majority of folks still haven?t gotten it to work I assume. I believe cinnamaldehyde happens to counteract some of the negatives, particularly vasoconstriction and lethargy. It?s likely just the result of two psychoactive components with some synergy.

With that said, I?d like to research this more and may come back with more data.

Is there any scientific literature stating this reaction or something similar works or is this just another 69ron crock of BS?

-GC

 

[Beenhead]

First off, that gun bluing/crystals myth produces no psychoactive drug whatsoever, it?s been passed down from one tweaker cook to the next probably as a way to fuck with potential rival cooks. It does produce pretty crystals, but salt and sugar can make pretty crystals too, doesn?t mean it?s active.

As for this adduct, I?m in the camp that believes that even IF it is possible, a majority of folks still haven?t gotten it to work I assume. I believe cinnamaldehyde happens to counteract some of the negatives, particularly vasoconstriction and lethargy. It?s likely just the result of two psychoactive components with some synergy.

With that said, I?d like to research this more and may come back with more data.

Is there any scientific literature stating this reaction or something similar works or is this just another 69ron crock of BS?

-GC

Honestly, Ilwhen I read this it reminded me of the Fosters beer ti make LSD myth

 

[Hodor]

Re: Cinnamaldehyde, I think the main reason it serves to counteract the negative bodyload of an LSA trip is simply that even people who do not believe in aromatherapy will agree that the smell is rather soothing; there's also the so-called "Proust-phenomenon", which says that smells are strongly linked with memories. And since memories involving cinnamon are often pleasant ones involving cookies and the holiday season, that may also contribute to a more positive mindset. And if you've convinced yourself that you're a genius of Shulgin-esque proportions because you invented a whole new psychoactive compound, well, that is just about the most euphoric headspace to enter a trip on.

So I think there's still vasoconstriction going on, it's just that it feels much less noticeable because you're in a happier headspace.

 

[G_Chem]

^^Even if one wants to not believe in aromatherapy (I do but too many MLM?s have taken and sullied the art) it?s still shown that orally consumed cinnamaldehyde has ?vasorelaxing? properties.

I consume cinnamon oil almost daily as both a vasodilator as well as to help keep insulin in check. Note I?m not some oil nut, this is the only essential oil I use orally like this. It most definitely gives the veins some breathing room, similar to capsaicin.

But beyond that, your probably right and I agree with everything else you say. Placebo is strong, but until I try it personally I?ll remain neutral. I could see how the slight activity, mainly physical, of cinnamon oil could fool people into thinking they?ve created a new drug in their lab/kitchen.

-GC

 

[Hodor]

I have not heard the rumors about String Dope before but upon a cursory reading, it seems like that cook does infact produce some unknown and possibly dangerous drug even if it is not meth.

"string dope" is a pure myth; no psychoactive compounds are being produced. There is no more reason for ammonia and the carbon in activated charcoal to randomly assemble into methamphetamine than there is for it to assemble into the debilitating neurotoxin MPTP.
Also, gun blue contains selenium dioxide, which is an oxidant. Given how the process for making methamphetamine normally requires a reducing agent (i.e. the opposite of an oxidant), that also speaks against it being useful in a meth synthesis. Oh, and it's also kind of toxic, so any "meth" produced this way would have to be thoroughly purified to make it free from selenium impurities.
But again, there is no plausible reaction mechanism for a psychoactive compound to appear under these conditions (unless you consider the symptoms of selenium poisoning to be "psychotropic" in nature). The crystals forming on your string would probably just be toxic ammonium selenite, (NH4)2SeO3.

Basically, the explanations for the origin of this myth are:
a) that someone used a string as a nucleation site when recrystallizing their meth. Other tweakers saw the pretty crystals, but apparently didn't realize that recrystallization actually requires you to have a supersaturated solution of methamphetamine in the first place
b) ...as to why it supposedly involves ammonia and gun blue... I could see someone misinterpreting some basic info they'd heard about the "Birch reduction" method for making meth, which involves mixing ammonia and alkali metals to create a blue-coloured solution that functions as a reducing agent. But you'd still need to get your hands on pseudoephedrine as a precursor to reduce it with the aforementioned solution.
c) And let's face it, tweakers can sometimes have a bit of an overactive imagination. Maybe they came up with the string dope recipe the same way they keep coming up with ways to "improve" household appliances by taking them apart and reassembling them over and over.
d) ...or maybe a cook just made up the myth to fuck with amateur "shake'n'bake"-cooks trying to compete with his business.