I can't quit dope

[Pillsbury_Dope_Boy]

I've been using IV heroin for 8+ years (on and off). I always lived in America, but I had family overseas and a wife overseas as well (we were waiting for her US visa to process), and every time I started using heavily, my parents would just send me out of the country for a while (heroin in not sold on the street there).

I have been back and fourth between America and overseas many times in the last 8 years. I have been back and fourth so often that I have not been able to get a college degree or have a stable career. Last year, my wife had had enough of my drug-addicted bullshit and decided to leave me. She was gone for 8 months. During this time, I had sunk into a deep depression and I was convinced that if she ever came back, I would never be so stupid as to start doing drugs again.

A few months ago, my wife's US visa finally finishes processing and she decides to come back to me. The only problem was that she would be living in America now, in my home city, and it is very easy for me to get dope there. But obviously, after all the suffering and self-hatred I experienced when she was gone, I wouldn't be stupid enough to go back to using, right? Wrong!

When my wife moved back in with me, I got Vivitrol, but I HATED it. I suffered for a month on Vivitrol (I was incapable of feeling any pleasure whatsoever when I was on Vivitrol) and as soon as the Vivitrol had worn off, I got high and was immediately fired from my job the same day. I ended up taking a trip to the country (about 3-4 hours away from my city) to stay with family and get clean. That is where I am right now, but I eventually have to go back to my city. I am 100% certain that I will use as soon as I go back to my city. My wife is being supportive for now, but she will eventually get tired and leave me for good if I continue to be a junkie. I am considering not going back to my city, and just telling my wife that I can't do it. However, she doesn't want to be forced to leave the big city just because of my addiction. She told me that I should stay away from the city for as long as I need, and that she will be waiting for me when I get back (even if it takes several months). However, I know that it is not a matter of time. In the past, I have left town for 6+ months and then gotten high as soon as I get back to town. If I have made up my mind that I can't go back to the city, then I need to move away for good (and I may have to accept losing my wife for good, if she doesn't agree to move with me). Otherwise, I have to just move back to the city and just hope that I can somehow get clean (which is not very realistic). What should I do?

 

[whos there]

yea thats why i wont fuck with vivitrol. honestly man if you really love her and its not just some fear of being alone or whatever then maybe love will be enough this time, if you really come to terms that she aint comin back again if you fuck up. i wish i had an answer cuz then id be clean right now too and not dopesick, but the only bit of clean time i ever managed in 7 years was 6 months, and it was entirely due to the fact that i had a wife who i loved more than il ever love dope, and i knew shed be out if i fucked around. it was actually easy during that time, i had 0 desire to use and i never left my hometown, lived in a hotel with dope everywhere and didnt even think about it. maybe have an honest talk with her and figure out a way for her to hold your money, or help you with accountability. i know it sucks laying that kinda stuff on a loved one, but if you guys are real then she should want to help you however she can. good luck brother, love is more real than anything and dopes always gona be around but love might not be.

 

[Pillsbury_Dope_Boy]

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I talked to her yesterday about possibly moving out of town for good (as in move back to the country where she and my family are from). There is no dope there (not kidding, there really isn't any dope in that part of the world. Coke is the only hard drug there). She said that I should move and that she would come with me as soon as she is able to travel without losing her US visa (so another 4 months). However, I talked to her again today and it turns out she actually has no intention of leaving the US (or even moving to a different city within the US, for that matter), and that she is actually extremely resentful towards me for even suggesting that she move out of town to help me with my addiction. The way she sees it, she loves me and wants to help me, but she doesn't see drug addiction as something that is her problem, and she doesn't think it's fair that she has to make major changes in her life (i.e. moving out of town) because of my drug addiction. If I had been stupid enough to leave town expecting her to join me in a few months, it would not have happened. She would just end up telling me in a few months that she has no intention of leaving town, and that if I don't like it, I can just forget about her.

So I don't have a choice but to go back to my city. It looks like I will be going back tonight. The room me and her have been staying at is actually owned by my dad (we are renting from him), and he made it very clear that if I use dope again, he will evict me immediately. So I have to somehow go back to town and not use any dope. I will probably be able to manage for a few days, but eventually it will be hard for me to resist the urge to do dope. But I guess that's life. If I'm too weak to quit dope, then I have to just suffer the consequences (my wife leaving me, my dad throwing me out on the street, etc.).

 

[sonicwhite]

I really think you need to move. I really do. I had to run from my sources to get clean.


If she really loves you she will be supportive going with you out of town, not saying she doesn?t but I really do get that going to your trigger point needs to stop.


But yes it can be done. I understand losing someone and when I lost my ex it broke my heart so bad that I gave up everything.


It took me hitting that low to realize what?s important.


Now I?m with a new gf who is very supportive. It will get better God willingly.


I know what you?re going thru bro I truly do.

My heart is breaking.

I?ll pray for you!

 

[Pillsbury_Dope_Boy]

↑↑

I get what you're saying. In the past, I have actually had significant clean time off of dope (6+ months at a time, several times) when I have moved out of town away from my sources. Of course, as soon as I would get back to my city, I would do dope immediately. Like, I would literally get off the plane (after 6 months clean) and go straight to my dealer to cop. I wouldn't even go home first to leave my suitcase or change my clothes. One time, I was coming from overseas, and it was summer where I was coming from but winter in America, and I didn't have a jacket with me. Rather than go home to pick up a jacket, I ended up just covering myself in a blanket, and so I ended up walking down the street in a bad neighborhood covered in a blanket and carrying a big suitcase. I looked like a total bum, but I didn't care. Mind you, this was after several months of clean time, so I was not at all physically addicted at the time.

The thing is, I spoke to my wife yesterday. She had been telling me over the last few days that she would move out of town with me (back to her home country) as soon as she completes her mandatory 6 months in the US (in order to preserve her visa). However, yesterday she admitted that she could not guarantee that she would move with me, and that it depends how things are going for her in the US (i.e. if she has a good job in the US, she might not want to move). She also will not consider moving to a different region of the US. Basically, she doesn't want to feel like she has to make dramatic changes to her life just because I am a junkie. In a way, I understand her. She wants to have a family at some point, and she wants to be with a man who is capable of being a good father. If I had kids, I can't imagine having to explain to them "Daddy can't take you to the US to visit Grandma and Grandpa because Daddy is a drug addict who will relapse if he travels to the US."

Basically, my wife is willing to accept that I fucked up in the past and wasted nearly 10 years of my life, but she is not willing to accept the fact that I will always be a junkie requiring some kind of special treatment in order to stay clean (i.e. needing to move out of the country). She wants a responsible man who can take care of himself and his family, and to be honest, she is 28, which means she is at an age where if she decides that I am not the man for her, she needs to hurry up and find another man if she wants to have a family (due to a medical condition, it is unlikely that she will be able to have children after the age of, say, 35).

Last year, when she separated from me, I actually tried to kill myself several times (and I was clean from dope at this time, since I was living out of town). One time in particular I almost succeeded. And I did not do this out of some "fear of being alone," as I had a few opportunities to be with other women during this time and it didn't change how I felt. I just couldn't accept the fact that I had lost the person closest to me, who I had been with for 9 years, because I was a junkie. So yeah, I don't think I will be able to voluntarily separate from her for good and tell myself I'm "making a sacrifice in order to get clean" (or something like that). I have no choice but to move back to my city and attempt to be with her and stay clean.

She actually thinks that the best thing for me would be to stay where I'm at now (at a family member's house out in the country, about 3-4 hours away from my city) in order to pick up a few months of clean time before I move back. However, I know from experience that if I do that, I am only delaying the inevitable. Living out of town in order to accumulate "clean time" will not make me any less likely to use dope when I move back to town. I really believe that if I were to go to jail for 15 years, there is a good chance I would go buy dope as soon as I got out. No amount of "clean time" is going to make me quit. So I might as well move back to town now and just try my best.

Every time I do dope, the people around me (my wife, family, friends, etc.) tell me that I "fucked up again" and that I need to "stop making bad decisions." However, I don't see it this way. The way I see it, I made a really bad decision at age 18 when I decided to start doing dope. I feel like everything after that (i.e. being a junkie in my late 20s) is just the consequences of the bad decision I made when I was 18, but it is kind of not really in my control anymore. I am not constantly making bad decisions, I am merely suffering the inevitable consequences of the bad decisions I made when I was younger, but there is pretty much nothing I can do about it at this point. My brain is simply wired to be a junkie at this point, and doing dope is a biological necessity just like eating or having sex. No matter how much clean time I accumulate, this will not change. My brain is already wired that way, and I am too old/have been a junkie for too long to change.

 

[EPL1]

2 peoples attitudes have to change here.

Hers, to be honest, she sounds somewhat selfish, if she loves you she would really hear what you're saying, and move with you so that you can have your sobriety. You deserve someone that will have your back, no matter what.

And yours, when you say you will no doubt use if put in bad situations you are just setting yourself up for failure. The negative self talk isn't helpful, I mean, at some point you are going to be put in less than ideal situations, and you will have to be strong and that's part of life.

A lot of guys on here go to really great support groups, I think you should go into something like that. Is that possible?

You deserve the best in life, you just have to tweak your thinking a little.

You sound intelligent and kind, there's a whole new life waiting for you. No one's too old to change, if you really want to.

I'm here for you and have your back whatever you decide,

I'm praying for you too.
Hugs and support,
your friend,
Ash.

 

[EPL1]

Agree completely Sonic, nice to see you again my friend.

Hugs,
Ash.

I really think you need to move. I really do. I had to run from my sources to get clean.


If she really loves you she will be supportive going with you out of town, not saying she doesn?t but I really do get that going to your trigger point needs to stop.


But yes it can be done. I understand losing someone and when I lost my ex it broke my heart so bad that I gave up everything.


It took me hitting that low to realize what?s important.


Now I?m with a new gf who is very supportive. It will get better God willingly.


I know what you?re going thru bro I truly do.

My heart is breaking.

I?ll pray for you!

 

[Xorkoth]

Okay, so here's my opinion. I was addicted to opiates for 10 years and by the end I truly believed I would never be able to get off of them and stay off. I had given up hope. But it's been 5 years since I last touched an opiate and I am no longer an opiate addict. What it took was for me to begin to weave a different internal narrative. Before, I was spending a lot of time working against myself, which is what I believe you are doing now, by saying "I can't help it, I WILL relapse if I'm tempted". By telling myself that, I had made it a foregone conclusion. I gave myself an out, and my addict brain seized on that opportunity every. single. time. I know how difficult it is, and I hurt for you, because I remember what it was like. But, at some point I changed my internal dialogue, finally. I no longer allowed myself the option to take any opiate, under any circumstances. It was hard but the more time I had away, the easier it got. I worked out 5 days a week to replenish and rebuild my endorphin and dopamine systems. I filled the time I used to spend thinking about and doing opiates with other things, friends, and mostly playing music (but whatever it is, you need to identify things that make you feel good and fulfilled). I figured out what was causing me pain in my life and started taking steps to remove those things. Before long, I didn't miss opiates at all. It stopped being a struggle, and now it's been 5 years since I have touched an opiate and I don't ever even think about them anymore. I can't even BEGIN to tell you how much better my life is because of it. And it all started with me no longer telling myself that I was unable to resist. I WAS able to resist, and I did, once I no longer allowed myself to consider taking opiates an option. I took back my personal power.

Addiction is a disease, certainly, that has biological factors present in the brain, from the chronic hijacking of the body's neurochemical systems. However, unlike cancer or other diseases, ultimately we DO have control over it, we are just led (by our own brains) to believe we do not. It takes really BELIEVING that you can refuse to actually successfully refuse. The fact that I could do it, and that anyone can do it, proves that it's possible. You're no different from anyone else, none of us are. I mean that in a hopeful way. You do have the power to stop but you need to start talking to yourself differently, and really understand what you're putting on the line.

No judgment though, I don't mean to imply that you're weak or anything, like I said I mtotally get it. But I believe we all have the capacity to take our personal power back. And the happier we are with our lives outside of opiates, the easier it is.

 

[Pillsbury_Dope_Boy]

Okay, so here's my opinion. I was addicted to opiates for 10 years and by the end I truly believed I would never be able to get off of them and stay off. I had given up hope. But it's been 5 years since I last touched an opiate and I am no longer an opiate addict. What it took was for me to begin to weave a different internal narrative. Before, I was spending a lot of time working against myself, which is what I believe you are doing now, by saying "I can't help it, I WILL relapse if I'm tempted". By telling myself that, I had made it a foregone conclusion. I gave myself an out, and my addict brain seized on that opportunity every. single. time. I know how difficult it is, and I hurt for you, because I remember what it was like. But, at some point I changed my internal dialogue, finally. I no longer allowed myself the option to take any opiate, under any circumstances. It was hard but the more time I had away, the easier it got. I worked out 5 days a week to replenish and rebuild my endorphin and dopamine systems. I filled the time I used to spend thinking about and doing opiates with other things, friends, and mostly playing music (but whatever it is, you need to identify things that make you feel good and fulfilled). I figured out what was causing me pain in my life and started taking steps to remove those things. Before long, I didn't miss opiates at all. It stopped being a struggle, and now it's been 5 years since I have touched an opiate and I don't ever even think about them anymore. I can't even BEGIN to tell you how much better my life is because of it. And it all started with me no longer telling myself that I was unable to resist. I WAS able to resist, and I did, once I no longer allowed myself to consider taking opiates an option. I took back my personal power.

Addiction is a disease, certainly, that has biological factors present in the brain, from the chronic hijacking of the body's neurochemical systems. However, unlike cancer or other diseases, ultimately we DO have control over it, we are just led (by our own brains) to believe we do not. It takes really BELIEVING that you can refuse to actually successfully refuse. The fact that I could do it, and that anyone can do it, proves that it's possible. You're no different from anyone else, none of us are. I mean that in a hopeful way. You do have the power to stop but you need to start talking to yourself differently, and really understand what you're putting on the line.

No judgment though, I don't mean to imply that you're weak or anything, like I said I mtotally get it. But I believe we all have the capacity to take our personal power back. And the happier we are with our lives outside of opiates, the easier it is.

That's the thing, I used to always think like you. When I first started using, I was totally convinced that it was possible to just use every now and then. I was convinced that I just needed to exercise a little more will power and I would be able to shoot dope occasionally and not be addicted (just like I am able to drink alcohol occasionally). It took me years to realize that it just wasn't popular.

Later on, I realized that using every now and then wasn't possible and that I needed to quit, but I was convinced that I could just will myself to quit, or that if I just spent x amount of time away from dope, I would be able to quit. I would move out of the country for 6 months at a time, but when I was given the option to stay there for good, I would always refuse and instead come back to the US. My reasoning was always something like "I can't spend my whole life running from my drug problem. I need to go back to the US and face my problem like a man." Needless to say, I would always use dope the very same day I got back to the US. I would literally go straight from the airport to the dope man. This happened many times over the years, usually after being clean for 6+ months.

Whenever these kinds of things would happen, my family would always say things like "You should have stayed out of town. You need to realize that you just don't have the power to stay clean. You need to admit that you are not in control. Will power alone will not get you to be clean." I never liked hearing this, and I would always think that if I claim to have no control over my drug use, I am basically just giving myself an excuse to keep being an addict. I would think to myself "Using drugs is a decision I make. I need to just be strong and have enough will power to quit using." Needless to say, I was wrong and my family was right.

Just to illustrate what I mean when I say I'm "not in control":

When I was living alone (before my wife came to the US), I was using every day if I had the money. I spent about 7 months (from July of 2017 to February of 20188) using pretty much every day. Now that my wife moved to the US with me, I have actually been resisting the urge to use most of the time. Since my Vivitrol shot wore off a month ago, I have only used dope 3 times. That's only 3 days out of 30 that I used dope, which means that 90% of the time I was resisting the urge to use. That's a lot better than I was doing back in 2017 when I was living alone. However, having to actively resist a powerful urge every single day becomes very tiring. It's kind of like if I were told I needed to be celibate for the rest of my life and then I was forced to live in a house full of young naked women who would constantly throw themselves at me. I might be able to resist for a few days or even a few weeks, but at some point I will be worn down and I just won't be able to resist.

I truly believe that the urge to use dope is so deeply built into my brain at this point that it is as powerful as the natural urges to eat, drink water, have sex, etc. What I mean by this is that no matter how long I manage to stay clean, the temptation will not go away. My only choices are to move far away from my city for good (and never come back) or to face an uphill battle to resist the urge to use every single day. I will be able to resist most of the time, but every now and then I will fail and give in to temptation. What sucks about drug addiction is that even if I manage to stay clean most of the time (i.e. I manage to only use a few times a month), my life will suck just as much as if I were using every day. I can stay clean for several weeks or even months, and if I use even once, I will destroy all the progress I made.

 

[Xorkoth]

To be fair, I took an ibogaine flood dose a week after I quit opiates, when I was 90% through acute withdrawals. It really was quite transformative. So I had some help. I just think you're setting yourself up for failure when you say things like "as soon as I get back to town I'm gonna get high, for sure". Well, you definitely will if that's how you think about it.

But yeah I totally understand what you mean, I used to feel exactly how you feel.

Have you ever tried in-patient rehab?

 

[Pillsbury_Dope_Boy]

Update: I just got back to my city and I actually managed to stay clean the first night, but then I got high yesterday.

I will probably be leaving the city again and staying away for a while. My wife is willing to come visit me every now and then. I guess that's just how things are going to have to be until I can get clean (although I don't think I'll ever be able to be in my city and stay clean, so I guess I'll have to just stay out of town for good).

Shadowmeister, I was reading about ibogaine. I hear that it is not uncommon for people to die from it. Is that true? I was looking into trying it myself until I found out how easy it is to die from it, and I got scared.

And yes, I've been to inpatient rehab many years ago. I have also been to 12-step meetings (again, not recently). When I would do any kind of group therapy (whether inpatient or outpatient), I would just hear people talking about their lives as addicts, and about how they used to use drugs, and it would just make me want to use. If I am surrounded by addicts who spend all their time talking about (not) using drugs, it just makes me want to use.

 

[Xorkoth]

It is quite uncommon, but it happens sometimes. It's hard on the heart so you need to get checked out beforehand. It's got its risks for sure but it's like 0.2% of people or something... another source says 1 in 300 which is about a third of a percent.

Agreed about 12 step programs though. I checked out NA for a bit and also had to go to some AA meetings when I got a DUI, and to me it seems that every day focusing your mindset on how you're powerless against your drug just keeps the drugs on your mind all the time.

 

[Pillsbury_Dope_Boy]

Just out of curiosity, how exactly would you say ibogaine helped you? Like, you just tripped on ibogaine and then you didn't feel like using anymore afterwards?

 

[Xorkoth]

I had 3 days of dream visions (like dreaming but whether I was awake or asleep), which were abstractly about my addiction and personality. And it mostly blocked my withdrawal (I had a bit left afterwards). After a week, I just started feeling differently (it took about that long to all come together... the post-ibogaine metabolites can stick around for weeks). I became excited about not being a slave anymore and got really motivated to live healthier. It seemed like it worked on a deeply subconscious level. Ever since then I haven't wanted to use opiates. I started working out a lot right after and I made some changes in my life, too. It's kind of hard to explain.

 

[somnilicious]

I would honestly recommend recovery support groups such as AA and NA. I know a lot of people don't agree with all the precepts but it is an awesome community and I take what helps and leave the rest. The support really turned my life around when I most needed it and giving back to others has been an integral part of my recovery. It has completely changed my outlook on life and I an angry agnostic was able to find peace and love from a God of my understanding. I know it sounds so cheesy and out there but God is now a living part of my life and is the fuel that drives me forward. Go and try it with an open mind. I would try opening up and being honest. You might be surprised by what you find.

 

[Xorkoth]

I had to do a few AA classes when I got my DUI last year, and I found the specific meeting really makes a difference too. Some groups are better than others.

 

[Pillsbury_Dope_Boy]

So, after getting high twice in 4 days during my trip back into town, I ended up moving back out of town and I'm staying with family for now, about 4 hours away from my city. I could technically travel back to the city to buy dope if I wanted to, but it's a lot easier to stay clean when you're 4 hours away from your dealer and you don't have a car.

I kind of want to try ibogaine, and my family is willing to help pay for it, but I have been doing research and apparently it's very dangerous. Like you said Shadowmeister, you have a 1 in 300 chance of dying (way too high, IMO), and even if you don't die, it can really fuck with your heart.

By the way, Shadowmeister, have you ever tripped on acid? Would you say ibogaine is similar, or is it something completely different?

Somnilicious, I used to be an atheist and I hated AA and NA because of the God thing, but I'm not an atheist anymore. I do not belong to a specific religious denomination, but I believe in God. The spiritual/religious component is actually a reason for me to go to AA or NA, not a reason for me to avoid it. The reason I'm not into AA (or group therapy in general) is because in my experience, sitting around with addicts talking about addiction just makes me want to use drugs more, not less.

Anyway, thanks for the responses everyone.

 

[Mafioso]

Shadow hit on some important issues, namely how important it is to address your self-talk, or the internal narrative of yourself, life, and world around you. Your view of yourself and the world around you has major implications on behavior and emotions. The way you think, particularly about yourself, is going to have impacts on how you feel about things and how you act.

It can be extremely difficult to change this because the "drug thoughts" and "drug behavior" gets rewarded with the drug use(stimulation of reward pathways in brain), and "sober thoughts" and "sober behavior" basically gets punished(withdrawal and lack of stimulation). So the brain becomes highly incentivized to continue the drug use, and this can continue on a subconscious level even after the individual recognizes how destructive the drug use is.

It's seemingly paradoxical- the brain both recognizes that the behavior(drug use) is destroying it, and yet still craves and even seeks the destructive behavior(drug use). I think it is this apparent paradox that confuses most people, myself included. It'd seem like just the recognition of the need to change would be enough. But we are fickle creatures of habit. This is where group therapy and individual counseling can really help out.

Even though success rates of groups like AA are pretty difficult to validate, there is evidence to support the benefit of group therapy, and there is more than one kind. Even among the same AA group it is possible to do different types of "groups", things like going through workbooks together or having a group speaker(s). I believe the important part is being among your peers who have the same goal of staying clean. But you do mention some real concerns, about being around others talking about drug use triggering your desire to get high. This, and similar problems are common concerns among self-governed self-help groups. Hopefully you can find a group of people that are focused on talking about ways in which they are recovering from drug use and improving their lives rather than the opposite.

Maybe this is a perfect time to get involved in a local church and join some bible studies since you mention your new faith. You don't HAVE to go to 12 step, you just have to find what works for you. Sometimes the easiest way to do that is to look at others who have already done it and try what they are doing, and sometimes you just have to feel things out. There are some sort of "general" rules that seem to apply to everyone, like increasing self-awareness and mindfulness, groups, and individual counseling, but how those play out in your life might look very different from my life.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yes ibogaine is dangerous for sure (though also remember, the ones who tend to die are the ones who have pre existing heart conditions or other health problems), and IMO only to be undertaken as a last resort. personally I felt I had no other options left when I did it and I thought about it for like a year beforehand. I have done just about every psychedelic under the sun and stars, tons of LSD, and ibogaine is totally unlike anything else. Just completely different. Far more intense, yet not frightening.

Absolutely agreed that group therapy is very powerful. I actually did some therapy right after ibogaine to help cement my new perspective and I'm really glad I did. Just getting out of your lonesome isolation with it is very liberating. Also, faith can be such a powerful tool for change and motivation.

 

[Stargazer]

Have you considered opiate replacement therapy? Subs or methadone?

I understand everyone feels differently about ORT. It sounds like alot better of an option then full time using. You can get your life together. ORT gives you that opportunity. It doesn't have to be for years or the rest of your life. But, you do need time to rebuild your life.

I don't think your wife is selfish. In the ten years you were together, I'm sure she endured alot of heartbreak and devastation. We can't expect someone to wait for the rest of their lives for something that might not happen.

From what you've said, you sound 100% sure you're going to get high again- no matter what. I guess she's been hearing you tell her that for a long time. It sounds like you're just not ready to stop yet.

Recovery is a verb. It has to be something we participate in. Not sit back and wait for it to happen to us. Unfortunately, not many of us get struck sober. I wish lol.

I'm not judging you. Believe me. I've been there and back and back again. I decided, after alot of thought, to go on Subutex. I've been on it for 10mos. Im thankful almost every day, that I made this decision.

That doesn't mean it's easy. It's not. I go through cravings, and slip up. But the slips have become further apart and less frequent. Good luck to you. I hope you find peace, and whatever works for you.