How to reach the next level (>240lbs)

[TrenE]

First of all hello to all members in this sub forum,

I am thinking about reaching the next bodybuilding level (>240lbs). Currently I am 220lbs (100kg) at 5'10 (1,80cm) with 13% bodyfat and my base stack for cycles is as follows:

1-1,5g test
4-6 IU pharma grade HGH
20-40 IU insulin per training day
Recently I have added 400mg nandrolone/deca for 8 weeks (bulk) followed by 8 weeks of 400-600mg trenbolone (cut). I did not notice much from 400mg nandrolone/deca. 400-600mg trenbolone was very effective during my cut.

Do you think it would be more effective and safer/healthier for adding more muscle mass (20lbs) at a minimum amount of fat to use the above base stack with 800-1000mg of deca/nandrolone 8-12 weeks (maybe at this dose I willl notice something) or 400-600mg of trenbolone 6 weeks. I would use trenbolone only 6 weeks, because of the strong adverse effect to lipids (never noticed any other sides). Which strategy would you recommend from your experience or knowledge?

Addition: Could it be possible that trenbolone could be less harmful than nandrolone for heart and blood vessels? You find many studies regarding nandrolone causing serious heart damage but less studies regarding trenbolone. Obviously there are some recent studies that aim for the potential usage of trenbolone for human purposes. Here are the recent studies.

Improvements in body composition, cardiometabolic risk factors and insulin sensitivity with trenbolone in normogonadic rats. (2015)

No evidence of adverse cardiac or hepatic effects was observed. In conclusion, improvements in body composition, lipid profile and insulin sensitivity (key risk factors for cardiometabolic disease) were achieved with six-week TREN treatment without evidence of adverse cardiovascular or hepatic effects that are commonly associated with traditional anabolic steroid misuse. Sex hormone suppression and benign prostate hyperplasia were confirmed as adverse effects of the treatment.

Trenbolone Improves Cardiometabolic Risk Factors and Myocardial Tolerance to Ischemia-Reperfusion in Male Rats With Testosterone-Deficient Metabolic Syndrome. (2016)

TREN treatment elicits favorable changes in body composition (specifically, in the reduction of visceral adiposity), lipid profile, insulin sensitivity, and myocardial tolerance to I-R in TEST-deficient male rats with the MetS. In comparison with TREN, the therapeutic effects of TEST were consistently less pronounced in these animals. Additionally, widespread replacement fibrosis in the myocardium and prostate hyperplasia were identified as consequences of TEST treatment and were markedly less pronounced in TREN-treated animals.

17β-Hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one (trenbolone) exhibits tissue selective anabolic activity: effects on muscle, bone, adiposity, hemoglobin, and prostate. (2011)

Our findings indicate that TREN has advantages over supraphysiological testosterone and supports the need for future preclinical studies examining the viability of TREN as an option for androgen replacement therapy.

Tissue selectivity and potential clinical applications of trenbolone (17beta-hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one): A potent anabolic steroid with reduced androgenic and estrogenic activity. (2010)

Compared to testosterone, 17beta-TBOH appears to induce less growth in androgen-sensitive organs which highly express the 5alpha reductase enzyme (e.g., prostate tissue and accessory sex organs). The reduced androgenic effects result from the fact that 17beta-TBOH is metabolized to less potent androgens in vivo; while testosterone undergoes tissue-specific biotransformation to more potent steroids, dihydrotestosterone and 17beta-estradiol, via the 5alpha-reductase and aromatase enzymes, respectively. Thus the metabolism of 17beta-TBOH provides a basis for future research evaluating its safety and efficacy as a means of combating muscle and bone wasting conditions, obesity, and/or androgen insensitivity syndromes in humans, similar to that of other SARMs which are currently in development.

Thanks so much in advance.

 

[Swim15]

Ah this brings back good memories of the days when I never ran below ~1.5 grams.

If youre going for bodybuilding and getting as big as possible, Id go with the deca if it works well with your body (only compound thats gives me tons of sides). Personally I dont like getting about 12% max anymore but if youre going for size and want to gain the most before cutting down then fluff happens and Id just keep upping the gear/food/cardio and keep pushing while keeping things as tight as you can.

IME, once you get to 800mg+ with deca you REALLT start to see it shine in terms of thickness. Id taper it up from 800mg to that 1000-1200 range and then adjust for a bit before starting your cut. Personally Id start the cut with just high dose test since the weight will come off easy and then add in tren towards the end.

 

[Swim15]

Oh - and personally, Id save yourself an arm and a leg and drop the pharm HGH. Triple your dose with good generics and youll get better results for less $$.

Would also try and cut down the insulin as that?s a pretty heafty amount imo.

 

[TrenE]

Thanks for your answer. Maybe then I should give deca a second try starting with 800mg ew.

In an old post you mentioned that you had contact to some IFBB coaches (also the one of Dallas McCarver). Do you know why he only used the steroids test and trenbolone which were found in his blood (no deca metabolites were present)? He was in offseason and did not compete that year anymore.

 

[Serotonin101]

Thanks for your answer. Maybe then I should give deca a second try starting with 800mg ew.

In an old post you mentioned that you had contact to some IFBB coaches (also the one of Dallas McCarver). Do you know why he only used the steroids test and trenbolone which were found in his blood (no deca metabolites were present)? He was in offseason and did not compete that year anymore.

Dallas I'd assume was using copious amounts of insulin and gh which synergize well with tren. Talking 100s iu of insulin and 10+iu gh on a regular basis on the low end.

I'd up the deca honestly and run it longer. 8 weeks of deca I feel is a short run for it.

 

[Swim15]

Thanks for your answer. Maybe then I should give deca a second try starting with 800mg ew.

In an old post you mentioned that you had contact to some IFBB coaches (also the one of Dallas McCarver). Do you know why he only used the steroids test and trenbolone which were found in his blood (no deca metabolites were present)? He was in offseason and did not compete that year anymore.

Yeah, actually saw his old coach last night lol.

Not sure as to the methadology of what he was running at the time - never talked that in depth and not sure if he had preference for certain compounds due to sides, results, etc but I saw what he was supposedly running at the time and it was a lot, around 20 grams IIRC. Also what serotonin said.

Personally deca is the only compound that gives me (really bad) sides but everyone has personal preferences. I usually just prefer high test/EQ for bulking.

 

[TrenE]

Yeah, actually saw his old coach last night lol.

Not sure as to the methadology of what he was running at the time - never talked that in depth and not sure if he had preference for certain compounds due to sides, results, etc but I saw what he was supposedly running at the time and it was a lot, around 20 grams IIRC. Also what serotonin said.

Personally deca is the only compound that gives me (really bad) sides but everyone has personal preferences. I usually just prefer high test/EQ for bulking.

Thanks for your answer. Could you give us an insight, if they kept it simple by sticking to a few compounds only and if they have some compounds for cutting and some for bulking only?

Dallas I'd assume was using copious amounts of insulin and gh which synergize well with tren. Talking 100s iu of insulin and 10+iu gh on a regular basis on the low end.

I'd up the deca honestly and run it longer. 8 weeks of deca I feel is a short run for it.

But if there are synergies which make trenbolone much more effective with hgh and insulin than deca, shouldn't these synergies also apply with lower dosages like mine mentioned in my first post?

 

[Swim15]

Thanks for your answer. Could you give us an insight, if they kept it simple by sticking to a few compounds only and if they have some compounds for cutting and some for bulking only?

But if there are synergies which make trenbolone much more effective with hgh and insulin than deca, shouldn't these synergies also apply with lower dosages like mine mentioned in my first post?

Not really, there arent really any bulking or cutting agents IMO besides from tren possibly but it just depends on the person (talking only anabolics). I know tons of guys who use deca to cut and stay extremely dry. Others, like myself, gain absurd amounts of water although that isnt really an issue and can be good except for the end of a contest prep.

All anabolics build muscle. Losing fat comes from caloric deficit. Most old school coaches I know use a test base and rotate secondary compounds every 6-8 weeks but there isnt any magic combo, some people just like some compounds more or less or seem to respond to some compounds better over others. I know Dallas specifically used copious amounts of tren all the time and probably contributed fairly specifically to his death.

Example - a friend of mine gets MAD strength increases off of EQ, even more so than tren. I get very little strength increase but love the nutrient partitioning.

Tren does synergies well with HGH and insulin for a variety of reasons and pathways but running it all the time isnt a great idea so its best left for contest prep imo.

 

[Swim15]

Gonna throw in the fact that, again, everyone is different. A friend of mine just won the heavyweight class at nationals last month and, given that I helped him with his gear, I know he was probably running less than everyone else he competed against so genetics and how far you make the drugs go is huge.

Not going to get too specific since anyone can look him up and see who he is but the combined total of his anabolics was less than your test base.

 

[TrenE]

Thank you very much for the insights. Very interesting.

To summarize it trenbolone has beneficial synergies with hgh and insulin, but should not be taken for a long period (not longer than 6-8 weeks) and only for a limited number of cycles per year due to it's adverse effects on health. Therefore it would make sense to use it only pre contest.

For me 400mg trenbolone during my cut was very effective, while 400mg of deca wasn't noticeable so I thought initially about something like this (hgh+insulin added):

12 weeks blast
- 1-8 high test + trenbolone (400-600mg)
- 9-12 high test (not to drop test levels to fast when trenbolone is still acting and limit the period of trenbolone usage)
8-12 weeks cruise (test+hgh) and so on.

But after your advice I will aim for this to reach my goals (hgh+slin added):

12 weeks blast
- 1-10 high test + deca (start with 800mg)
- 11-12 high test (not to drop test levels to fast when deca is still acting)
8-12 weeks cruise (test+hgh) and so on.
Pre contest/cut with trenbolone.

Want to keep it simple with just using the basic compounds.

Does this sound well or do you have further suggestions for this cycle procedure?

Thank you very much.

 

[TrenE]

Maybe some additional information on my lipids for getting further advice:

nandrolone 400mg + test 1g
HDL 41
LDL 99
Triglyceride 74

trenbolone 400mg + test 1g
HDL 23
LDL 129
Triglyceride 125

 

[Swim15]

Actually not bad. Im not going to say you have to limit tren to X amount of time but it is fairly harsh as your lipids indicate so Id generally limit it to the times when its most beneficial like contest prep.

Those lipids overall arent bad either on the test + deca combo. Were you using any cholesterol support with that?

 

[Serotonin101]

Actually not bad. I?m not going to say you have to limit tren to X amount of time but it is fairly harsh as your lipids indicate so I?d generally limit it to the times when it?s most beneficial like contest prep.

Those lipids overall aren?t bad either on the test + deca combo. We?re you using any cholesterol support with that?

I'm surprised his hdl is over 20 on tren lol. Knocks mine to single digits real quick.

 

[TrenE]

Still hard for me to believe that >800mg deca will be so much more effective while I did not notice anything from 400mg.

But ok maybe it's not a good idea to walk around with decreased hdl / worsen lipids while regularly bulking with trenbolone - even "only" for 8 weeks every 12 weeks.

We will see, if 800mg deca will be also harsh on the lipids as 400mg trenbolone are.

Here are my lipids on 1.5g test only:
HDL 41
LDL 98
Triglyceride 54

Using regularly following things regarding improving lipids:
- 100mg aspirin
- 6g fish oil (2.4g epa, 1.8g dha) will maybe go to 10g
- eating 50g of nuts and 25g dark chocolate every day

Will next time throw in some red yeast rice extract to improve my lipids more.

 

[Swim15]

Personally Id stay away from red yeast rice just because of statins and their side effects. Not to say you cant obviousky but Ive opted for combos of other stuff instead (curcumin, berberine, spirullina, black seed oil, and citrus bergamot all have good effects).

 

[Genetic Freak]

Actually not bad. Im not going to say you have to limit tren to X amount of time but it is fairly harsh as your lipids indicate so Id generally limit it to the times when its most beneficial like contest prep.

Those lipids overall arent bad either on the test + deca combo. Were you using any cholesterol support with that?

Why.? What's wrong with cholesterol.?

 

[Swim15]

Why.? What's wrong with cholesterol.?

His lipids looked pretty good on 1500mg of test and was just curious if he was actively doing anything for cholesterol health

 

[Genetic Freak]

His lipids looked pretty good on 1500mg of test and was just curious if he was actively doing anything for cholesterol health

That's bad old school thought, the "lipids are bad" hypothesis has been debunked.. Only thing to look out for is small dense LDL, or oxidised LDL (which is probably the same thing).. Stay away from combining refined fructose with healthy fats and cholesterol markers should not be an issue..

Google: Dr. Ronald Krauss on LDL Cholesterol, Particle Size, Heart Disease & Atherogenic Dyslipidemia..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gZt9DQqtZI

 

[CFC]

OP: nobody in the history of bodybuilding has ever got to the next level via some magic combination of doses and types of AAS, even though 97.5% of all posts and threads in bodybuilding forums are basically asking that question. Eventually you begin to see the pointlessness of it all.

In general: use less AAS; start low and taper your doses upwards; make the most of rebounds by coming off/tapering down frequently and then cycling back on; learn to cycle training frequency/volume/intensity and food/supplement intake in similar ways; accept progress takes time and year-on-year discipline once you've reached a certain level of mass.

 

[Jeanpauldash]

Just keep taking hit after hit of acid til its the next day and the white album is the only thing keeping your body glued together.

Oh im sorry wrong type of level