green tea extract and liver failure

[asecin]

i know this isnt new and it has been discussed for a long time that i know of, but recently i read this https://vitals.lifehacker.com/green-tea-extract-can-be-terrible-for-your-liver-1830028314 and im getting more stressed out now actually because i havent used any extracts but it seems up to 800 mg of catechins is toxic from what i read. i drink highly concentrated tea shots with up to 200mg each, but ill have 2-3 sometimes thats about as toxic. what is your opinion on this? im figuring out even much lower dose can be toxic, if you drink alcohol and you are hangover next day. i came to realize this when i did few shots of green tea on hangover days and i felt sick to my stomach and i was throwing up. for example, matcha which is powder tea is probably really concentrated catechin tea, must be as bad as those pill extracts, right?
anyway, i think its good idea to avoid green tea when hangover no matter how little you drink, as alcohol definitely puts the toxic dose at much lower concentrations and i am the person to admit this effect on me now few times.
very important question though, are matcha powders (high extracts of tea) as bad as those pill extracts??

 

[sekio]

No concerns for infusions

For green tea infusions, EFSA’s experts concluded that there is generally no indication of liver damage even after high consumption, and that the few cases of liver damage reported in humans are likely due to rare and unpredictable reactions. Experts therefore considered catechins from green tea infusions brewed with hot water, and instant and ready-to-drink green tea beverages with similar catechin content, as generally safe.

somehow I dont think i would lose sleep over this, cachetins are very low b.a. and are rapidly excreted due to their polar nature.

 

[asecin]

oh yeh sekio? check google for example, green tea catechins and liver toxicity. you will get so much shit you wont be able to handle it. i dont know where you get your info from, but the catechins in tea are quite bio available and potent. anyway, how would you know unless you have experienced it yourself right...

 

[sekio]

The bioavailibility of EGCG is below 10% and in fact closer to 1% when taken orally in humans[ref], and a lot of it is conjugated to glucuronides, sulfates etc instead of being "free" in the blood...

 

[Pomzazed]

EGCG is low bioavailable by oral ingestion, this is the main reason green tea doesn't kill cancer in the body when eaten, but does in test tube.

 

[sekio]

That's part of why you don't see many analogs of cachetins/flavonols/etc in modern pharmacy, metabolically speaking the whole class is just too polar and a total dead end.

Even stuff like silibinin/silymarin which has medical use is formulated as inclusion complexes or emulsions and administered by injection.

Also there's been 1000+ years of use of green/black tea, and at least 100+years of chemical studies on it, I'm pretty sure if orally administered tea cachetins were provably hepatotoxic the FDA wouldn't let people sell them as dietary supplements.

 

[asecin]

and yet you completely ignore all the articles of people experiencing liver toxicity from taking green tea supps. i guess its so much easier to not even bother reading those articles eh sekio? also, yeh all those natural phenols and catechins and shit might have low bioavailabity but because of our gut microbiome, we turn them into different substances that do work and get into our bloodstream, so dont think just because you cant detect the exact EGCG in blood it actually means it didnt get in there with gut microbe helps turning it into different chemicals. you should read more on this but more importantly, read the damn articles of people using green tea supps and almost dying, ktnx

 

[asecin]

EGCG is low bioavailable by oral ingestion, this is the main reason green tea doesn't kill cancer in the body when eaten, but does in test tube.

yeh i think so too but there were studies on humans that do show oral ingestion prevents specific cancers ones of esophagus, mouth, throat, stomach or colon not remembering all of them but it shows it is definatelly in vitro thing and blood stream cannot reach more serious organs.

 

[Save]

I love full leaf green tea. Not a matcha man myself.

One can drink cup upon cup without any adverse reactions in my opinion.

I suppose if you drink it as the Japanese do you shouldn't have any concerns (not to sound racist). I prefer drinking Chinese tea myself, from black to oolong to green to white. Well sometimes I drink Indian black tea too. Never had concerns similar to this.

I have drank matcha before but not shots. Maybe stop doing shots? But that might be your fav way to imbibe green tea so Idk man just maybe understand that matcha has been drank in traditional Japanese culture without concern for centuries if not millenia (not a historian). I am thinking the shot style you are drinking is a bad idea perhaps if it raises this concern but that is not to say I feel your health is literally endangered by matcha shots.

Sorry for the bias and lack of data.

 

[asecin]

this study done in humans actually shows EGCG is more bioavailble on empty stomach and hence why some studies have shown minimal absorption before; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4665468/

anyway, i assume thats why so many liver toxicities were happening with high doses, maybe people were taking them on empty stomach. its much easier to overdose this way and i still stand correct, every time i have been drinking the night before and next day drink green tea on empty stomach, i get pain in the liver even in moderate dose.
THIS IS A WARNING TO ANYONE DRINKING ALCOHOL OR DOING DRUGS AND DRINKING GREEN TEA ON EMPTY STOMACH NEXT DAY

 

[Skorpio]

These warnings are too dire honestly. All drugs have dosages where they exhibit toxic effects. The toxicology reports all are for people who have been taking very high dose extracts of green tea daily for months.

The level of catechins in matcha is about 59 mg per gram of matcha. The amplification effect of an empty stomach compared to consuming catechins with food is about a factor of 4. There is no issue with drinking tea on an empty stomach unless it is 10 cups at once done daily for month long periods.

Also asecin, you wouldn't feel minor liver damage as pain, that is probably the nocebo effect.

 

[asecin]

skorpio, its coming from you, never experiencing severe liver damage like i have. i know when i experience problems with my liver by now from history. i have had hepatitis and few other drug induced liver toxicity damages, im pretty sure i know what liver damage feels like by now. maybe its probably just one symptom that puts me in fear condition thinking its causing liver damage, but something is definitely not working the right way there.
anyway, wasnt sekio who said EGCG has zero bioavailability in human beings hence no positive or negative effect? so i guess too much is bad and normal doses are probably good? well, he doesnt know and wont ever know himself. something is wrong with this guy...

 

[sekio]

wasnt sekio who said EGCG has zero bioavailability in human beings

No? It has low BA but certainly not zero.

well, he doesnt know and wont ever know himself. something is wrong with this guy...

This coming from the guy who never posts a reference because he's too busy distorting whatever I post.

 

[dopamimetic]

Don't know much on the topic admittedly, but it kinda reminds me of kava-kava and how the EU managed to ban it from pharmacies because of some ominous liver failures (speculations are that the mixed in cheap synth kavaines might have been the cause).

 

[Pomzazed]

Well, it is no use to argue based on bashing,

Lets make it constructive, ok? From what i know PREVIOUSLY, during the early study of green tea,
Where EECG is thought to be a good substance killing cancer cells, that WAS the last time i read the study on this topic.
At that time, the conclusion comes as it has activity in vitro but not in vivo due to poor oral absorption.

After then, i read studies about making its derivatives to make it more bioavalable.

Then, I admitted i didnt read on this topic further on, so that was the most recent study i know.

About the toxic EECG, this is also new to me and i will have to read some study about this when i have time.

Please post references, on both the good and bad effects of this molecule, if you have any

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

play nice...

 

[sekio]

Asecin doesn't "play nice", he's had 43 infractions in the past for bad conduct. And I have... zero

 

[asecin]

No? It has low BA but certainly not zero.



This coming from the guy who never posts a reference because he's too busy distorting whatever I post.

instead of scavenging for the many references that are out there i just posted a reddit thread with all of them inside and they were deleted.
that NAC thread we had discussion about it. twice in fact i did so and i wont bother third time. so,im too busy too be collecting articles all day without making any money. thats a great idea!!!

Asecin doesn't "play nice", he's had 43 infractions in the past for bad conduct. And I have... zero

thats why you are a moderator. teacher's pet. enough said!

 

[WannaBeDrVexiant]

asecin, you speaking with so much conviction blinds you from the very truths you seek. sekio is a very reputable individual within this community; his/her profession probably involves organic chemistry or pharmacology.

I think I read somewhere, long ago, that the bio-availability of EGCG is improved with omega-3 fatty acids. Is said improvement negligible? Additionally, I always wondered why 4 cheap tea bags of Lipton green tea (no one about aluminum shit at me. Don't care) in a big cup, twice a day, always eradicated the sore feeling I'd get some lactic acid the day prior from high-demand workouts. Anyone fill me in on those two?

 

[g0to]

There isn't gonna be some magic supplement that cures liver damage while you continue drinking. The only thing I have found to heal liver damage is tapering/abstinence for a month+, adjusting diet in the mean time, sure after you can keep drinking and things such as amount of alcohol, diet etc will only help in the short term. Alcohol's innately damaging to the liver.