MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 7) [ALL LTC posts go here]

[ZeroLuck]

With my respect lion, you can't explain anything because you're just hypothesizing. I like your positivism, but it doesn't bring anything solid on the table. There's endless researches out there solidifying my real-life issues. It's stupid for me to believe it's just anxiety. Anxiety is just another symtom out of the many, caused due to the brain changes after the mdma usage.

There's countless reports of MDMA users with cognitive impairment with or without prone anxiety. And there's countless of people with GAD and other anxiety disorder that do not have any cognitive deficits.

About the research papers,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4672089/
"The results of the first follow-up assessment showed significant deficits in MDMA users in visual paired association learning after a period of 1 year"
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931692/
A more refined 2010 meta-analysis by Nulsen et al65 differentiated between tests of short-term and working memory (verbal and visuospatial in both cases) and found that the ecstasy users performed more poorly in all memory domains. Results were significant regardless of whether the control group was composed of non-ecstasy polydrug users or individuals who had not been exposed to any illicit drugs. Moreover, estimated lifetime ecstasy consumption was related to the effect size in working (but not short-term) memory. An even more recent (2012) meta-analysis by Murphy et al66focused on visuospatial memory tasks. Significant deficits in ecstasy users were found for tasks requiring memory of the spatial distribution of stimulus items, tasks requiring figure recognition, and tasks requiring production or reproduction of figures. In contrast to the results of Nulsen et al,65 estimated lifetime ecstasy consumption did not predict effect sizes in the analysis of visuospatial memory performance. It should be noted that, at least with respect to long-term memory, memory deficits in ecstasy users are more clearly seen in high-complexity than in low-complexity tasks.67 If this is also true for other memory domains, it may help explain some of the conflicting findings in the literature.
Fisk and Sharp68 proposed that working memory consists of a central executive function along with four subcomponents which they termed ?updating,? ?attention shifting,? ?inhibition,? and ?access to long-term memory.? A recent meta-analysis comparing ecstasy users to polydrug-using controls on these four subcomponents found significant ecstasy-associated deficits in updating, attention shifting, and access to long-term memory.69 Effect sizes were generally moderate for the three significant subcomponents, whereas the inhibition subcomponent was not significantly affected. Meta-analyses that examined aspects of cognitive function other than memory found significant impairment in attention and concentration, verbal comprehension, processing speed, and motor/psychomotor speed.70,71 Together with the reviews of memory performance, these findings suggest that regular ecstasy users suffer from widespread problems across a wide range of cognitive domains.

MDMA toxicity is not limited to the brain. This compound can also produce serious adverse effects on the heart and cardiovascular system, immune system, liver, and kidneys.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071023/
The manifestations of this neurotoxicity, in terms of altered cerebral function and behavioral change, range from neuroendocrine impairments16 to deficits in verbal memory and reasoning,17short-term memory and semantic recognition,14 and visual memory.18More general indices of intelligence are also adversely affected,19 but reports of serious long-term psychiatric disorders are still rare, with the possibility that previous exposure to MDMA merely accentuates preexisting negative personality features.20 One particularly worrying feature that has emerged is that chronic psychosis, when manifest in MDMA users, reportedly responds poorly to therapy.21


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https://www.mentalhealthacademy.net/journal_archive/acn0814.pdf

Cognitive consequences of ecstasy use have beenexamined more extensively. Numerous cross-sectionalstudies reported impairments of learning and memory inmoderate to heavy recreational users (for review seeMorgan, 2000; Parrott, 2000; Verbaten, 2003).

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[Needhelp123]

How does explain the posts you make about feeling so much better, etc. if it was truly brain damage you wouldn’t have these recoveries. I have very physical and visual symtoms that never ever not even for a second go away. To me, that’s mayb a sign of damage. I really think you can build your cognition back if you work at it. Are you reading and studying a lot?

 

[ZeroLuck]

I've been advocate that it's illogical to have "working" phases on something that should be broken. But again, I've just felt better, good mood, what about my cognition in general? A friend recently told me that I used to remember things forever, and now I'm just distracted now all the time. Also, on Mensa IQ tests I used to score 132 points, I did it 2 weeks ago and was like 98~ :/ My only hope is as you say build my cognitive skills again, like a newborn.

 

[sick_guy]

@lionheart90 regarding using antidepressants - I've been taking Zoloft for half a year now, and yes, it helps a little, I have more energy and slightly better mood, but I still have derealization, head sensations, nausea, cognitive issues, it's hard for me to focus. So I'm almost certain that there is persistent damage done.

 

[Needhelp123]

What’s gotten better for you? What is your derealization like? You think objects around you are fake?

 

[lionheart90]

@ sick guy- would you say that the zoloft is taking care of your anxiety too, or mostly just taking care of your depression?

@needhelp123 - it could still be brain damage and stories of recovery. My neighbor is missing a huge chunk of his brain, like a chunk the size of a fist. He had a bad motorcycle wreck and it took a huge chunk of his brain out. This guy is missing like a baseball size chunk of his brain and he's totally fine, he can do everything he could before. I didn't ask him about how long his recovery was but yeah man, the brain is amazing and can recovery from just about anything.

@zero those studies don't really sway me on any of my theories because they don't mention times. I seen one that mentioned a 1 year follow up and still noticed cognitive impairments.

I've read other studies that say after 3 years MDMA users and non mdma users brains are essentially the same.

So yeah, it's not surprising to me that 1 year isn't enough time to recover. The brain is super complex and sometimes takes years to heal itself from a TBI. A brain injury doesn't always have to be missing a chunk of the brain or something like that, sometimes a significant chemical shock is enough to throw it out of balance. A MDMA experience might have a low probability of doing it, but I believe it's enough to throw it out of balance and I believe it may take years to reconfigure itself but I believe there is no lasting damage.

Another thing that isn't very convincing to me about the studies is it says in moderate to heavy users, which they fail to mention what dosages and frequency is defined by those terms. IMO heavy/moderate That means people who have been dosing for months or years and doing it in insane amounts, like multiple times a month for months on end, or dosing multiple times a year for years. If they mentioned what their range for moderate and heavy users were it might be different. However over the last few years of being a part of the LTC group the thing I've found is most people tend to not be heavy users. I see a lot of people who use it like less than 10 times and get hit with the LTC fairly early with some people getting hit with a LTC on their first dose. Also LTC (and the associated cognitive impiarments) are noted in lots of people who experience a LTC through weed. So yeah I'm just not buying it that it's the MDMA or that somehow the brain is damaged.

I'll buy it that the brain and body are thrown out of balance, and that delicate balance may take years to restore itself. But based on what I've experienced and heard from other people (and im talking people who come back years after and tell us how it took 1-3 years on average to heal but they eventually healed and notice no lasting symptoms) everything eventually returns to normal.

also @ zero, what is the fascination with IQ tests and constantly examining your health?

maybe it's just a part of getting older that we get "dumber", at least as it relates to IQ tests and other lay forms of measuring intelligence.

I can tell you from personal experience that I too used to get high IQ tests, like 125-135 range, and now if I did take them I bet I probably would score lower. I don't think it's because somehow my intelligence has been impaired though. When I was taking all those tests frequently I was also in college and high school, where I'd basically been training my brain for the better part of a decade to do basic problem solving, memory tests, language problem solving, etc. I was also young and had a strong and healthy brain.

Now though? well I've been out of college for 3 years. Did a fair amount of drugs during that time (mostly just LSD and weed with some occasional MDMA or ketamine). Also I didn't use my brain for basically anything, I had a manual labor job with very little need to train or jog my intelligence. Mentally I was becoming fat and lazy by not using my brain and also by indulging in drugs. I was also eating unhealthy and gaining weight (which contributes to brain fog).

so yeah man, it's no surprise that I might get lower on an IQ test.

I wouldn't be surprised if I ran a 13 minute mile. I used to run like a 7.5 minute mile but I've been sitting on my ass being fat and happy for 10 years. It's no surprise that I can't run fast anymore. Mentally it's basically the same thing.

And even if you say "well I've been doing highly complex math and programming", I'd counter that with saying it doesn't really matter. If you've learned it, are comfortable with it, and are not being challenged regularly or stimulating your mind with novel intellectual tasks then I'd say it doesn't matter if it's complex because you're still not really using your brain in any challenging way, you're just bringing up shit from your memories which puts your intelligence on auto pilot and makes it fat and lazy.

 

[Needhelp123]

Do you guys think serotonin is our issue or dopamine? The monkey studies say that serotonin axons are permanently distroyed, right?

 

[ZeroLuck]

I've been reading at some point that the axons regrow, as long as the nerve cell is fine. For the 5-ht mdma is just destroying the axons, for dopamine I'm unsure.

Also it's unknown if the new axons are actually functioning properly.

 

[lionheart90]

Considering how well people do on serotonin balancing drugs like anti depressants, I'd say it's likely some kind of serotonin issue.

BTW i think the monkey studies were done on like stupid high doses. Most of the time they are doing such high doses that the animals get sick or die because of it. So yeah I think that speaks to the folly of those experiments.

Like if you took 500mg of MDMA 3x in one night, it would be pretty likely that you'd get some serious damage or maybe even death. IDK What the doses are but from what I'v heard they are stupidly high. Also with mortality rates of like 20% it might be even higher than the equivalent of 3x 500mg doses.

the fact that they say they tested it at "regular human sized doses yet scaled down" and pretty much all the animals got sick or died or had brain damage, kind of speaks to how fucked up their scaled down ratios are. Like if you go to a rave and theres 100 people there on mdma, it's unlikely that even one will faint. and its unlikely that person will get any kind of brain damage, much less die or get so sick they need to be hospitalized.

Also it doesn't say if they were properly hydrating the animals, playing soothing or relaxing music, giving them antioxidants, or in other words if they were doing appropriate harm reduction techniques. Its possible they were just dosing these animals on stupid high levels of MDMA, keeping them in fucked up cages where they freaked the hell out, and basically waiting for them to get brain damage so they can study it and write a stupid fucking paper demonizing a drug they have a bias against.


excerpt
In an article published in the Washington Post (2002 September 30, p A07), researchers questioned the validity of the current research, arguing that results in animals have varied so much from species to species, and that the doses given to the animals have been so high, that the results cannot be extrapolated to humans. Moreover, they say, human studies have rarely controlled for concomitant use of other drugs. Some scientists think the small memory decline seen in some ecstasy studies is actually due to participants' use of marijuana.
"In my opinion ... these studies are so flawed in terms of the technology used that one cannot derive any conclusion from them at all," said Stephen Kish, a leading ecstasy researcher and chief of the human neurochemical pathology laboratory at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169546/

Another study, a very popular one is this one.

"A very important experiment was performed in monkeys to determine if ecstasy can actually damage neurons. Monkeys were given ecstasy twice a day for four days"

its the one where they show the brain scan and hypothesize that serotonin pathways are destroyed or something.

Couple things that make me disagree with the study.
first is that they dont say the doses or what they did with the monkeys. MDMA given in high doses in a cage with no harm reduction practices in such high toxic doses could be super toxic, enough to do long term damage. Also MDMA might affect monkeys more than humans, who knows.

Second, they don't give monkeys antidepressants, therapy, or any kind of wholesome life transformation like a human might get. If a human gets "brain damage" or even thinks they do, they get a lot of treatment. if they dont have access to good medical treatment then they do it for their self. they study what needs to be done and do it. just look at the LTC thread, countless people who have seen the path to take and decide to do it for their own benefit. things like getting outside and walking around (which a monkey cant do, they are perpetually enslaved and never have true freedom or independence. imagine how hard it would be for you to return to health if you were a slave), yoga, getting out with friends, eating vegetarian or super healthy foods, exercising, etc. Also humans can get antidepressants, which can alter the production of serotonin in the body. Maybe natural production of serotonin is fucked but maybe antidepressants can jump start it again.

lots of variables and honestly I think a lot of these studies are just shit science. I haven't seen anything that even sounds remotely convincing in all the studies I've read about brain damage. Most of the time they do super high doses and then their logic is "well, if super high doses do major brain damage, low doses must do low damage and over time it all builds up". So they get animals on stupid high doses, record damage, and post these dumb studies showing how "its proven that MDMA is nuerotoxic".



Look at the numbers in their studies.

2x a day for 4 days.
3x a day at doses so high that many got so sick they couldn't take a third dose, with 2/10 dying.

In a normal human, the side effects would probably be so insane and they would be such shitty trips that there is no way someone would take that much. it's likely that they were just forcing these animals to take the drugs.

also its unlikely that these animals ever had any previous encounters with MDMA, so they were probably at zero tolerance levels.

I've seen a few examples of people who did MDMA for months or years on end and have some pretty insane binges. Doing like up to 1g in a weekend at a crazy festival. Doing like 150mg first night, 300 second night, 500 3rd night. But they also have super high tolerances. And yeah sometimes people notice really bad side effects, but I've also heard tons of experiences where people dose for months doing it a few times a week and they dont crash or have the crazy side effects that some of the LTC people do.

Seems like some people have a body chemistry that is built for MDMA. Some people dont.

 

[Needhelp123]

Yes well I only took a little but I was on adderall and I was really drunk so the poly drug use was prob caused my damage

 

[Obese Ballerina]

Hey guys, Im 3 years in. Have the worst brain fog and head pressure, mainly on one side of the head and a permo blocked ear. Some symptons have subsided (tingling fingers/feet, waking up with heart palpitations and dizziness but the brainfog and head pressure won't subside. I cant say I had anxiety at any stage of this. I workout hard (15 hours a week) and noticed no change in the last 2 years.

I often wonder if I'm barking up the wrong tree here - If these symptoms started 52 days (7 1/2 weeks) after I "rolled" is this LTC? Or something else?

My Drs are stumped and at a loss. Been through a lot of them now.

 

[ZeroLuck]

@Obese Ballerina,


How you explain the head pressure, are your symtoms constant?

 

[Needhelp123]

Hey guys, Im 3 years in. Have the worst brain fog and head pressure, mainly on one side of the head and a permo blocked ear. Some symptons have subsided (tingling fingers/feet, waking up with heart palpitations and dizziness but the brainfog and head pressure won't subside. I cant say I had anxiety at any stage of this. I workout hard (15 hours a week) and noticed no change in the last 2 years.

I often wonder if I'm barking up the wrong tree here - If these symptoms started 52 days (7 1/2 weeks) after I "rolled" is this LTC? Or something else?

My Drs are stumped and at a loss. Been through a lot of them now.

you take any perception drugs or suppliments during this time leading up to head pressure?
Durin

 

[Obese Ballerina]

@Obese Ballerina,


How you explain the head pressure, are your symtoms constant?

Hi, sure. One side of the head tingles on left hand side and there is a pressure there. Pressure behind left eye and a constant blocked ear. I could live with all this but the issue is the brain fog. I feel like I'm using 20% of my brain.. Only real variation of symptoms is in the morning if I'm lying on my left ear (the bad side) it spasms and once every 2/3 months it rings really badly for 5 or so seconds. My neurologist (who is awesome) has tried all the usual headache/ brain calming meds (amatrypline, sertraline, candosartin and topomax) and none have made the slightest difference. I told the doc about the possible drug aspect and she spoke to a school colleague who is a neurologist in a US jail. She said brain damage shows up on MRIs and mine are fine. I know from reading this forum LTC is real but not idea of peoples brain scan results.

Do you think my timing (50 odd days) is too far out for this to be LTC?

 

[Obese Ballerina]

Hi, no prescriptoin drugs bar ventolin for asthma. Supplements would be fish oil, ginkgo biloba, chromium picolinate and centrum multivits. Now Im punching those plus 1200mg magnesuim, ubiquiniol, B2 and B multivit. Sleep pretty well and always wake up with headache.

 

[Needhelp123]

Hi, no prescriptoin drugs bar ventolin for asthma. Supplements would be fish oil, ginkgo biloba, chromium picolinate and centrum multivits. Now Im punching those plus 1200mg magnesuim, ubiquiniol, B2 and B multivit. Sleep pretty well and always wake up with headache.

Got it - just trying to rule out other reasons for Ltc. People have similar symptoms who take perscription drugs and have long term side effects

 

[lionheart90]

If you cant say you've had anxiety then it's not a LTC. Anxiety is one of the main features.

It's possible you have been dealing with anxiety of a different form and failed to recognize it as anxiety. I've had anxiety for most of my life but for a long time I didn't think I was dealing with anxiety. It took me a long time before I finally analyzed the symptoms and deduced that despite not recognizing it as the anxiety beast I'd known all my life, I was still dealing with anxiety, it was just a new form of anxiety.

concern about symptoms is pretty valid. constant worrying to the point that its disrupting your life is pretty hallmark for health anxiety though. It's hard for any of us to tell you if you have anxiety or health anxiety, but you could figure that out on your own. Perhaps take a journal and start trying to identify trends.

 

[RiversUK]

Sorry didn't realise there was a thread devoted to LTC!

(Question regarding LTC (11 years now)
Hi all!

So my story starts in 2008, when stupidly as a teenager I obtained a ?20 bag of MDMA at a house party clueless to how much to take etc and basically dabbed away at it all night. I woke up in the morning and the bag wasnt there. I dunno If I took it all, but anyway. My life was different after that.

Basically it brought about a crippling anxiety disorder mainly centering around health anxiety and a mild DP/DR, floaters etc..

I also developed muscle twitching, which brought on years of obsessive thoughts over motor neuron diseases etc.. Which even to this day I have not yet shaken off.

My question to you guys is this..

Am I right in thinking that such a ridiculous dose of MDMA would cause oxidative damage to my DNA? and oxidative damage is one of the main causes of neurodegenerative diseases such as Mnd..

To be honest I don't fully understand oxidative stress and how it works/wether it can be healed? I was hoping one of you more educated types could give me a little more information as the Web is not proving helpful to me.

Thanks a lot guys.

 

[Needhelp123]

Sorry didn't realise there was a thread devoted to LTC!

(Question regarding LTC (11 years now)
Hi all!

So my story starts in 2008, when stupidly as a teenager I obtained a ?20 bag of MDMA at a house party clueless to how much to take etc and basically dabbed away at it all night. I woke up in the morning and the bag wasnt there. I dunno If I took it all, but anyway. My life was different after that.

Basically it brought about a crippling anxiety disorder mainly centering around health anxiety and a mild DP/DR, floaters etc..

I also developed muscle twitching, which brought on years of obsessive thoughts over motor neuron diseases etc.. Which even to this day I have not yet shaken off.

My question to you guys is this..

Am I right in thinking that such a ridiculous dose of MDMA would cause oxidative damage to my DNA? and oxidative damage is one of the main causes of neurodegenerative diseases such as Mnd..

To be honest I don't fully understand oxidative stress and how it works/wether it can be healed? I was hoping one of you more educated types could give me a little more information as the Web is not proving helpful to me.

Thanks a lot guys.

what are your remaining symtoms aside from musscle twitches? Are they 24/7? Has anything improved at all? Is the dp/dr constant or does it come in waves?

 

[ZeroLuck]

Hi, sure. One side of the head tingles on left hand side and there is a pressure there. Pressure behind left eye and a constant blocked ear. I could live with all this but the issue is the brain fog. I feel like I'm using 20% of my brain.. Only real variation of symptoms is in the morning if I'm lying on my left ear (the bad side) it spasms and once every 2/3 months it rings really badly for 5 or so seconds. My neurologist (who is awesome) has tried all the usual headache/ brain calming meds (amatrypline, sertraline, candosartin and topomax) and none have made the slightest difference. I told the doc about the possible drug aspect and she spoke to a school colleague who is a neurologist in a US jail. She said brain damage shows up on MRIs and mine are fine. I know from reading this forum LTC is real but not idea of peoples brain scan results.

Do you think my timing (50 odd days) is too far out for this to be LTC?

I'm unsure myself, it seems a little odd that it happen 50 days after the intake of the MDMA, but what I can share with you is that a lot of my symptoms came 25-30 days after the MDMA, like DPDR and anxiety. Lionheart mentioned that if there's no anxiety then it's not LTC, which for me is completely false, I've seen tons of people with or without anxiety as a symptom of the LTC, me included, but I guess his hypothesis core is surrounded by the anxiety-theory and it's hard to shake it off.

Asked about the head pressure because I have this "overwhelming" feeling that I've confused as head pressure. I have the brain-fog, short-term memory issue left only and it's driving me crazy. The symptoms are very much alike ADHD, what helps me the most is the good old healthy-lifestyle. Restricted calories a day or just one meal a day as well as keto diet, but the moment I shake-off the habits the brain fog follows.

I would try modafinil and see if that's shaking off some of the cognitive decline. It helps me with the short-term memory, not much with the concentration. Also there's a possibility you have an anxiety, but can't recognize it. You don't have negative thoughts half of the time?