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Mental Health Anxiety relief substances while working: how to not become psychologically dependent

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Mycophile

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Mar 3, 2014
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I'm trying to get good at a new stressful career that involves public speaking and obviously I don't want to say where or what I'm doing, and I have stage fright and anxiety.

Two things work for me, but one much better than the other.

I take Klonopin prescribed daily and have for so long there's not even a thought of trying to do something like this job without it, and it's doctor approved so I feel all good using it and I'm used to it, so I don't feel conflicted about it.

But then there's Kratom, which works WAY better for my anxiety.

So I'm still just learning to do this job, and had my first practice session recently and used both Kratom and Klonopin.

Of course I had ZERO anxiety...and that's the problem:

I don't want to, and never will use Kratom more than 3-4 days a week as I don't want to get addicted...(and yeah I know...Klonopin is worse and I'm addicted to that...so lets skip that part.)


I knew if I took it the first time doing this job it would just seem too easy and i don't want to feel like I need Kratom to do the job, but now that I still haven't worked this job without being on Kratom, I feel like there's an "asterisk" next to my facing my anxiety, like I didn't REALLY face it cause I took the Kratom, and I know I'm not gonna feel like I really faced it till I go in while NOT on it.

(lets forget the fact that the job would consider it socially unacceptable for ZERO good reason and I could get in trouble...)

So you can see my diilemna:


I feel like at some point soon I have to FORCE myself to go work this job while not on Kratom, but only on my Klonopin, and while I know I can do it, it will be harder.

There's no "answer" to this, I'm just voicing this and seeing what people think, cause the only answers are 1) just take Kratom every time I work which I think is a bad idea 2) go in and face the fear while NOT being on it, and I feel like I need to do as much of #2 as possible so I don't become psychologically dependent on Kratom and know I have what it takes to face the job anxiety without it.

So what would you do?

How would you feel in this situation?

Anyone ever have a stressful job or life situation that they first did while on a drug that made it a breeze and killed the anxiety, then suddenly realized they hadn't REALLY faced that anxiety yet, and had to make themselves go in cold without it before they could feel secure in themselves and look in the mirror knowing they'd truly faced the anxiety??
 
Could someone respond to this please?

It's about not wanting to become psychologically dependent on Kratom for anxiety when working a stressful job.

I love Kratom, I just don't want to get to the point where I think I need it to work.

Thanks
 
That's a good point. You never want to take anything that's completely going to kill your anxiety. Anxiety is a normal human emotion. You should look to taking strong meds only when it is overwhelming.
I generally take klonopin but for a while, specially while I was going to an outpatient rehab, I was just taking Lexapro and Hydroxyzine for it. The lexapro helps tremendously.
I used to have panic attacks as a teenager and in my 20s, but I was self medicating then, so I didn't really care about which meds were only made for anxiety.
I wouldn't advise anyone on using Kratom for anxiety because it is an opiate-like substance and not too much is known about it. At least I don't know that much about it.
But the reason I say that is because it can be habit forming. As far as benzos, klonopin is your safest and best bet. Try not to become addicted though because a benzo addiction is hell.
 
Well, I am already addicted to benzos and not very worried about it lol.

I'll get off them if I need to.

I think enough is known about Kratom that I feel safe using it, but it would be better for me to push through the anxiety on just the Klonopin and not take the Kratom.

I know sooner or later I'll do it, it's just that the first few times teaching I've used Kratom there's always got to be that "uncomfortable first time without it", but that's just the way it is with these things really I guess, and no other way around it that I can see, unless anyone else has any other idea, you just have to bite the bullet that first time and do whatever you've got to do without it and then when you live and see it's not so bad (or even if you are kind of uncomfortable) you tend not to feel like you need it the next time as much right?
 
^Can you have a day where you simply don't take kratom before work but maybe bring some with you just in case?

IME, using a drug to be able to work is counter-productive. Its likely there will come a point where you will need to up the dose, after which side effects obviously start to increase and you will become less functional on it than off it, but with much less choice than you currently have.

I did something similar with a drug, and I had MASSIVE twinges of doubt as I commenced down the path. I felt like I was getting into something that I would not be able get out of, but I pushed that inkling down and made all sorts of promises and invoked limitations to sort of negotiate with my intuition (but really it was to justify taking the drug), well- of course all my plans went to utter shit very rapidly and I got fired. It was a job that I had studied hard to get, and had even done a masters to obtain a promotion in, it was work that far exceeded my initial plans when I studied this, but I fucked it.

If you are having some sort of doubts now, it's best to act on it while you can. If you find it horrible, just tell yourself its only one day- but I think you'll find its still a job you can do without kratom, and understand why you would want to demonstrate to yourself that you can do it. I say go for it, at least once. That's what I said about opiates too, if only sobriety were as addictive. :\
 
swilow said:
^Can you have a day where you simply don't take kratom before work but maybe bring some with you just in case?

IME, using a drug to be able to work is counter-productive. Its likely there will come a point where you will need to up the dose, after which side effects obviously start to increase and you will become less functional on it than off it, but with much less choice than you currently have.

I did something similar with a drug, and I had MASSIVE twinges of doubt as I commenced down the path. I felt like I was getting into something that I would not be able get out of, but I pushed that inkling down and made all sorts of promises and invoked limitations to sort of negotiate with my intuition (but really it was to justify taking the drug), well- of course all my plans went to utter shit very rapidly and I got fired. It was a job that I had studied hard to get, and had even done a masters to obtain a promotion in, it was work that far exceeded my initial plans when I studied this, but I fucked it.

If you are having some sort of doubts now, it's best to act on it while you can. If you find it horrible, just tell yourself its only one day- but I think you'll find its still a job you can do without kratom, and understand why you would want to demonstrate to yourself that you can do it. I say go for it, at least once. That's what I said about opiates too, if only sobriety were as addictive. :\
Click to expand...

I'm not 100% sure what you are describing when it comes to yourself cause you are a bit vague about it.

Do you mind being a little more specific so I can compare your situation to mine? What drug was it you had a problem with that you used for work?

Sure, I could bring it with me, but I'd probably either take it or not take it in the end since I'm somewhat dependent and wouldn't want to feel bad physically aside from mentally.

The thing is, this isn't actually a job yet, it's a teaching program that I am right now getting an A+ in (one of my 2 teachers told me), where they train you do teach, and I only have a total of 6 practice teaching sessions to get the certificate, and I've already done the first 2 of the 6 and was on Kratom.

So the thing is, just getting the certificate doesn't guarantee they hire me but they probably will, and if they do then THAT's when the REAL job begins, and my new plan is to temporarily stop Kratom before that ever happens, and once the class is over give my stash to my friend and have him hold onto it for me so I can focus on getting hired and doing well without the temptation of Kratom.

So with only 4 practice sessions left, I'd like to teach AT LEAST the last 2 without it, but I'm dependent on Kratom right now, and unless I can get my doctor to prescribe me some Adderall/Dexedrine or Ritalin for the WD (it's the only thing I find to work, and I would NOT tell him that's one of my reasons why I want it lol...but it's also not the only reason why)....so unless he prescribes that soon, there's no way I can feel comfortable enough physically to teach regardless of if I am comfortable enough psychologically.

However, I GUARANTEE I will not allow what happened to you to happen to me: I've worked too hard, and I know I'd stop before that point, it's just the simple problem that despite Kratom being mild, it's WD makes it very hard for me to do anything productive, and I try hard for that reason to keep it to 3-4 days a week max which usually prevents WD, but I fucked up and now I'm in it, and I could stop for a few days and get over it, but I keep having too much to do to actually break the fucking dependence!!

It's frustrating.

I KNOW I can do the job without it though, I mean I have social anxiety, but I truly believe that my Klonopin plus the confidence I've been gaining at how to do the job will get me through it.

I may not do great every time, but I know I can do it, but I still feel I have to test myself and if I AT LEAST don't do the last of my practice sessions without Kratom I think I'll be pretty dissapointed in myself...but regardless, it wouldn't be the end of the world, but I don't want to let myself get that certificate without having challenged my anxiety without it.

Actually, some side effects have already started to increase as I've upped it, so you know what you are talking about, but I doubt I'd be less productive on it than off it since I am dependent, and I also bet that if I don't up my dose more eventually I'll adapt to my new dose and maybe the side effects will go away cause Kratom is a weird drug.

Do you have experience with Kratom?

Did it ever happen to you that you increased the dose and got side effects and if so, did they ever go away?

What do you think of my plan to give it to my friend before I'm hired and see if I can get some Adderall for the WD?? (of course, I'd have to be sure not to get addicted to that either...)
 
Honestly that sounds like a horrible plan. Adderall makes me feel better than anything else. I cant try not to get addicted to adderall. I love adderall. I take it and listen to "here we go again" by demi lovato day after day. I dont want to not take adderall. So if your genes are right you might find yourself just using kratom and adderall.

Adderall might help you. It improves my life alot. However, if your goal is to not be dependent on drugs i would caution proceeding with your plan.
 
Mycophile said:
I'm not 100% sure what you are describing when it comes to yourself cause you are a bit vague about it.

Do you mind being a little more specific so I can compare your situation to mine? What drug was it you had a problem with that you used for work?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I kinda muddled it. I got a new role at my existing job; it was a dream role tbh; and of course I was totally nervous and fretful, having really bad anxiety at times, I decided to start using opiates a bit more rgularly to give myself more confidence and increase concentration and motivation, than I started making it a bit more regular and adding a benzo here and there, and then more often, plus dexamphetamine, and up to/including pregabalin toward the end; it was the last of them that totally fucked my memory and concentration and I think I was acting somewhat strangely :| I got fired, and deservedly really.

The opiate was only codeine too, but past IV morphine/heroin habits sort of scar the soul- its very hard to forget. My downward spiral really took about 7 months, but had been building as my anxiety did and I started using drugs to try and combat it, and then drugs to counteract other drugs and so on . . . After a while, I realised that I had learned a lot of stuff while high, and a lot of it seemed state-dependant and hard to recall, or motivate myself to recall to a meaningful extent if I was close to sober.

I'd be wary of benzo's man, they inherently inhibit learning. I think if you keep your dose minimal though, that shouldn't matter.

My situation has resolved however. I am free from opiates, and only take prescribed pregabalin and smoke pot. I use other stuff recreationally but I have no habits, so hopefully my second rock bottom was my last. I've had a stupidly long history of addiction by now.

Do you have experience with Kratom?
Click to expand...

Nah, never tried it. Have been curious but its illegal where I live. :|

What do you think of my plan to give it to my friend before I'm hired and see if I can get some Adderall for the WD??
Click to expand...

Is there any reason why adderall would help kratom w/d?
 
d1nach said:
Honestly that sounds like a horrible plan. Adderall makes me feel better than anything else. I cant try not to get addicted to adderall. I love adderall. I take it and listen to "here we go again" by demi lovato day after day. I dont want to not take adderall. So if your genes are right you might find yourself just using kratom and adderall.

Adderall might help you. It improves my life alot. However, if your goal is to not be dependent on drugs i would caution proceeding with your plan.
Click to expand...

Why do you think it is a horrible plan?

I think it's a great one.

You think it's bad cause you think I'll end up addicted to Adderall?

Well let me ask you a question: how many days a week/doses a week do you think is the most you can take Adderall without getting physically dependent?

Like, if you take lets say, 3-4 doses a day, for 7 days in a row, will you be dependent?

What about 3-4 doses a day for 4-5 days in a week?

Cause it's not like I can't flush it or not fill my prescriptions even if my doctor agrees to prescribe it, or even tell him I no longer want him to prescribe it (if he even agrees to at all) if I ever run into a problem.

I have used Dexedrine many many times before, more than I could possibly count, so unless Adderall really behaves differently, which I doubt it does, I mean I know they are SLIGHTLY different...then I already have a good idea of how I react to it, and I don't think I'd become dependent and I'm pretty damn sure I could keep myself from taking enough to get dependent.

Also, aren't stimulants generally less physically addicting than opioids and benzos?

Don't you have to abuse them worse to get physically dependent?

Also, if one DOES get dependent on Adderall, what is the protocol for getting off it?

Does one do a taper?

And what happens if one gets dependent?

Do you get insomnia?

Cause I HATE insomnia.

Do you have trouble moderating with all substances or just Adderall?

Also, it sounds like you like the high A LOT more than me. I like it, but I don't LOVE it like you do. I like lots of substances better.

But really I don't think having a prescription for Adderall would be a bad thing for me.

I think I could use it generally for the purposes it is intended for and not use it too often to get high, I mean I'm sure I would at times, but not usually.

So yeah, I have enough experience with Dexedrine to know how I react to it and I think it's an ok idea to have access to it, actually a very good idea, but I'm interested in hearing your responses.
 
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swilow said:
Sorry, I kinda muddled it. I got a new role at my existing job; it was a dream role tbh; and of course I was totally nervous and fretful, having really bad anxiety at times, I decided to start using opiates a bit more rgularly to give myself more confidence and increase concentration and motivation, than I started making it a bit more regular and adding a benzo here and there, and then more often, plus dexamphetamine, and up to/including pregabalin toward the end; it was the last of them that totally fucked my memory and concentration and I think I was acting somewhat strangely :| I got fired, and deservedly really.

The opiate was only codeine too, but past IV morphine/heroin habits sort of scar the soul- its very hard to forget. My downward spiral really took about 7 months, but had been building as my anxiety did and I started using drugs to try and combat it, and then drugs to counteract other drugs and so on . . . After a while, I realised that I had learned a lot of stuff while high, and a lot of it seemed state-dependant and hard to recall, or motivate myself to recall to a meaningful extent if I was close to sober.

I'd be wary of benzo's man, they inherently inhibit learning. I think if you keep your dose minimal though, that shouldn't matter.

My situation has resolved however. I am free from opiates, and only take prescribed pregabalin and smoke pot. I use other stuff recreationally but I have no habits, so hopefully my second rock bottom was my last. I've had a stupidly long history of addiction by now.



Nah, never tried it. Have been curious but its illegal where I live. :|



Is there any reason why adderall would help kratom w/d?
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear about your situation.

I'm not going to let that kind of thing happen to me.

I have been on Klonopin for 14 years, only stopping for 9 months, during which time my anxiety came back, and most people think that's "SOOO horrible" and my brain must be permanently destroyed by now hahaha, but it's not.

I have never had trouble learning anything while on it.

I got a Master's degree, a TESOL certificate, and I'm on my way to a 2nd one.

I do keep my dose minimal and since it doesn't get me high like it does some people, I never have a desire to take more than necessary, I mean I do sometimes, but only for anxiety or sleep, and I'm doing ok with it but thanks for the concern.

The reason that Adderall helps ME PERSONALLY with Kratom WD is that my biggest symptom from Kratom WD is really bad fatigue that makes it so I have a really hard time doing anything, and caffeine isn't strong enough to help, but stronger stimulants like Adderall/Dexadrine and Ritalin/Concerta to a lesser extent work wonders with that so I can still be productive and have energy to get done what I need to during the few days it takes to break the Kratom dependency.

Do you have any words of advice on avoiding the kind of situation you are in??
 
Adderall is a S-II substance, so can be very dangerous. Adding it in place of a non-recommended kratom regimen is not how the system best works. Many other well-researched and non-addictive medications can have great efficacy against anxiety.

be up front with your doctor. Let them make the moves, adding in what you genuinely think will be useful information, assertive but tempered opinions and questions.

Benzodiazepines work very well for people. Some stay at the same dose for long term (decades) and still find it working. The literature suggests that these doses oftentimes tend to be medium-high doses, though. Cognitive deficits may just as well be ameliorated, as caused, by benzodiazepines.

Ideally, you'd drop the kratom and start up an exercise regimen. That would leave you fresh for work.
 
Ho-Chi-Minh said:
Adderall is a S-II substance, so can be very dangerous. Adding it in place of a non-recommended kratom regimen is not how the system best works. Many other well-researched and non-addictive medications can have great efficacy against anxiety.

be up front with your doctor. Let them make the moves, adding in what you genuinely think will be useful information, assertive but tempered opinions and questions.

Benzodiazepines work very well for people. Some stay at the same dose for long term (decades) and still find it working. The literature suggests that these doses oftentimes tend to be medium-high doses, though. Cognitive deficits may just as well be ameliorated, as caused, by benzodiazepines.

Ideally, you'd drop the kratom and start up an exercise regimen. That would leave you fresh for work.
Click to expand...

Well I just got my doctor to prescribe me Adderall yesterday (I have a lot of very legit reasons to want it like ADHD so I don't just want it to help with Kratom WD)

Your bolded comment strikes me as odd, because my psychiatrist told me just the other day when he prescribed it that it is NOT a very dangerous substance, at least when used orally and in the prescribed doses.

He was telling me that it's really not very dependence forming, and that he's known many people to use it every day for weeks or even months and then stop cold turkey with no withdrawal, and despite my surprise, even said it's safe to do intense exercise while on it and that it really doesn't raise your blood pressure much. That surprises me, but I mean it MUST raise your heart rate right?


Still, no offense, and I really don't want to be rude here, but I kind of have to believe him over you.

What about it do you think is "very dangerous"?

I mean I could see if you snorted like massive amounts, but orally taken pills ranging from 20-40 mgs? (he gave me 20s)

I just don't see how that's dangerous, and I'm sure you know that substances are not necessarily scheduled because they are dangerous, I mean weed is schedule 1 for god's sake.

I'm glad he prescribed it for me cause it'll be useful in many ways.

I do have an exercise regimen, but I've been slacking and need to get back to it.

As for moderating with Kratom, I think I found an excellent solution!!

I guess I'm not allowed to link even a tupperware container sold online am I???

Well, I discovered that they sell these tupperware containers for people who basically want to be forced to moderate with one thing or another just like me, and the deal with this tupperware is, you put whatever you want in it, and then you can set the timer from anywhere from 1 minute to 10 days, and once you press the button you literally cannot open the container until the timer runs out!! (I mean unless you broke the thing, which I wouldn't do and which might be hard)

So I've realized from years of using Kratom that the best dosing schedule for me to not get any withdrawal is no more than 3 days a week and never 2 days in a row, so now I'm gonna buy this thing and set the timer so I am FORCED to take it on that schedule and hence pretty much probably never get any withdrawal!!

I mean all I need is the willpower to set the timer, and I totally have that cause I've flushed drugs before and this probably takes less will than that.

Lots of people here might have a use for it.

The people in the reviews for it said they did use it for drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, food they want to avoid, video games like if they want to stop their kids from playing, etc.

So yeah, anyways, two things I'm excited about: finally getting an Adderall prescription, and that I'm gonna buy this tupperware thing.
 
Hello!

If it's all about anxiety, why don't you try other medications that will work better in the medium-long term? I'm talking about SSRIs or SNRIs... They are antidepressants which also act to reduce your anxiety, but you will only feel its effects in about 1 month after you start taking them... There are also antipsychotics that work wonders (at least for me it was the best choice I've made to help with my huge anxiety), despite having the stigma they have, mostly because of their name "antipsychotics" - they not only treat psychosis but also a lot of other conditions, depending on the one you'd get, like Quetiapine (Seroquel), which is the one I take for anxiety, depression and mood swings! Klonopin will only act in a very short-term basis, like hours... These other meds will probably make your anxiety go away for good (if you keep taking them) and they're not addictive.
 
crubsc said:
Hello!

If it's all about anxiety, why don't you try other medications that will work better in the medium-long term? I'm talking about SSRIs or SNRIs... They are antidepressants which also act to reduce your anxiety, but you will only feel its effects in about 1 month after you start taking them... There are also antipsychotics that work wonders (at least for me it was the best choice I've made to help with my huge anxiety), despite having the stigma they have, mostly because of their name "antipsychotics" - they not only treat psychosis but also a lot of other conditions, depending on the one you'd get, like Quetiapine (Seroquel), which is the one I take for anxiety, depression and mood swings! Klonopin will only act in a very short-term basis, like hours... These other meds will probably make your anxiety go away for good (if you keep taking them) and they're not addictive.
Click to expand...

I already take Lexapro and yes, it helps, but it's not enough with the Klonopin.

Klonopin lasts for like 12 hours so it's not a big issue.

I do want to eventually see if I can stop taking it someday, but for now I need it.

I know if I could quit coffee I'd need a lot less cause that shit makes me anxious yet for some reason I just have a problem not drinking tons of caffeinated beverages haha.
 
Mycophile,
I relate to a lot of your posts--I also am in a transitional time in my life, and therefore have more anxiety regarding the future. I'm also prescribed a benzo for SA & GAD, & drink coffee habitually. I don't think adding Kratom to your regimen is a good idea, but I understand the temptation to do so. Having to keep it all up must cause anxiety. You've said exercise helps you a great deal, why not start a routine? I know the thought of quitting/having to stop taking my PRN benzo causes me anxiety.
 
I was a symphony orchestra musician at one time in my life, so I can relate to the stress of having to perform in front of large crowds. I'm surprised no one has mentioned propranolol. I used to get 20mg tablets for performance anxiety, and I'd take them 60-90 minutes before I needed it to make sure it had time to kick in. It doesn't keep you from getting nervous, but it will mitigate the physical symptoms of nervousness, such as shaking, heavy sweating, clammy skin, tachycardia, shaky voice etc. Speaking solely for myself, I would not use a benzo in this context, because I wouldn't want to lose the edge that adrenaline gives you. I wouldn't want to take anything that could potentially slow down my thinking or neuro-muscular systems (since benzos are also muscle relaxants).
 
Ha, I read this whole thread thinking "what about propranolol?." It blocks the release of adrenaline. So it doesn't make you tired, but when your nerves act up like with public speaking, you release adrenalin, heart rate and BP increases, which makes you sweat and shake and turn red, which makes you more nervous and on and on if in a spiral. If Propranolol works well for you, it blocks that release, so you'll still have those initial nervous thoughts, but hopefully the downward spiral is cut off, and then you realize you can do just fine. It works perfectly for me, the only side effect (I get) is that it's pretty damn impossible to exercise on it, because your body isn't releasing adrenalin. But it doesn't make you tired like benzos typically due. Unless you have asthma or certain heart conditions I'd give it a shot (it's a prescription in the US.) There's no addiction, and you just take it when you need it.

That said I don't know how it reacts with adderal, it might counteract some of the effect you're getting from that. Good luck
 
The only non-dependence-forming medication for anxiety that I find actually works is Chlorpromazine.

Any benzodiazepine, opioid (including Kratom) or barbiturate will guarantee a physical dependency, though. Even if you never abuse it.
 
Pros and cons with all meds. I try not to take my anxiety meds during the day so that I don't need them for daily shmoozing, but at night.
 
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