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Those Suffering From LTC (long term MDMA related symptoms) A Few Questions..

LTC Sufferers - Please State Which Country You Are From.

  • South America

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Asia

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Africa

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Australia

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    41

G_Chem

Moderator: OD
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I made a thread to ask those who are suffering from the illness with a whole bunch of names (mainly called LTC here, those who post in the recovery thread) to see where you are located in the world. I'd like to know if this problem is more associated with a particular area of the world.

If you suffer from LTC please vote in the poll to let us know which part of the world you are from.

Also, if you do vote can you please post to answer the following additional questions:


  1. If you don't mind saying, where specifically are you from (country/state)?
  2. If you know, where did the product come from?
  3. Also was the product tested via reagents and/or lab? Which?
  4. What kind of lifestyle did you live up until that point (i.e. Diet, exercise, etc)?
  5. What was your prior usage of MDMA like leading up to the incident which gave you said symptoms?
  6. What was usage of other drugs like?
  7. How old are you?

I appreciate anyone who can give answers to this, for those in the LTC community please inform others of this thread so we can gather a decent base of information. This may not save you but if you could help us save someone else wouldn't you do it? Thank you for your time and I wish you the best.

-GC
 
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Hello,mate!
Good to know that there are people like you.
I?m 25 yrs old male from Eastern Europe.
I haven?t big experiences with drugs. I used just twice mdma,few times speed (maximum 5) and few times joint.

My ltc started two months ago in England. Bought the pills from street dealer.Even haven?t any experience with it and haven?t any knowledge about this drug.

As you know everyone here has almost the same problems.I think everyone is feeling better with time,because the brain just needs time to recover.

I think,but not sure almost all of the pills in Europe are coming from Holland.I didn?t test my stuff and don?t know what actually it was but all my friends are (were) fine next day,just I had the bad luck.

Sorry about my english I am not native speaker as can see!

I hope everyone is getting better and wish you guys all the best!Stay positive! :)
 
Hey, I?ll be glad to help in your survey, but my story is atypical and I don?t know if it will be of much use.

I live in northern Germany. I had a pill (pink anonymous) which is supposed to be in the 160-180mg range. I did not test it, but got it from a friend who is very well connected regarding drugs and uses MDMA since 15 years, so I was/am pretty sure it was pure.

This was my first time taking MDMA. I took the whole pill, my heart was racing very fast and I thought I was going to die. Maybe this traumatic event predisposed me to the dp/dr that was about to follow.

Was a daily weed smoker for years (I?m 24 years old) and had a panic attack 1 week after the MDMA while smoking a joint, which started my LTC (I was feeling pretty good the week following the trip).
So I can?t even fully blame the MDMA use, but I?m sure that either the chemical or the "near death" experience played a role in the panic attacks and following disassociation problems. Was a pretty anxious person before all that, but never experienced similar symptoms.

I didn?t have a good diet, nor did I exercise.
 
Hey, I?ll be glad to help in your survey, but my story is atypical and I don?t know if it will be of much use.

I live in northern Germany. I had a pill (pink anonymous) which is supposed to be in the 160-180mg range. I did not test it, but got it from a friend who is very well connected regarding drugs and uses MDMA since 15 years, so I was/am pretty sure it was pure.

This was my first time taking MDMA. I took the whole pill, my heart was racing very fast and I thought I was going to die. Maybe this traumatic event predisposed me to the dp/dr that was about to follow.

Was a daily weed smoker for years (I?m 24 years old) and had a panic attack 1 week after the MDMA while smoking a joint, which started my LTC (I was feeling pretty good the week following the trip).
So I can?t even fully blame the MDMA use, but I?m sure that either the chemical or the "near death" experience played a role in the panic attacks and following disassociation problems. Was a pretty anxious person before all that, but never experienced similar symptoms.

I didn?t have a good diet, nor did I exercise.

So how you feeling now?Are you already recovered? What symptoms you have/had?
 
Thank you guys so far for the responses. It appears so far my hunch is right but I'd like to hear from many more. My guess is this may be a problem associated with Dutch product, which would obviously affect Europeans more than Americans. But I do know Americans who've bought product online and experienced the same thing.

I also ask that we try and keep this thread to survey above, support and general talk is great but may clog up this thread over time.

-GC
 
@ G_Chem

I think it's a European issue the pills are too strong and people who drug naive are taking way too many of them in a short amount of time. I am guilty of this.
 
You could very well be right. Pills do have the highest dosages of MDMA ever right now, but another theory we've been working on in another thread involves a particular impurity (acrylamide) which may be present in a lot of the MDMA produced these days. The toxicity of this compound vaguely resembles what we see with LTC, and is also attenuated by antioxidants same as MDMA.

My guess is the combination of MDMA with this particular impurity could be the cause of the vast amount of reports we see today. Since both substances seem to be attenuated by antioxidants, I guess that there could be a synergistic effect taking place as the symptoms of LTC seem to be an amalgam of the two toxicities.

While dosages are high, people have always consumed stupid amounts of MDMA and until recently only had severe depression lasting a few weeks to a month or two at most. Not years on end type stuff. I've watched first hand as the reports increased from 2012 onward.

The problem is, like you said should'vestayedhome, the rise in reports correlates with both the increase in dosages as well as the increased use of PMK glycidate. So we aren't sure which to really look for.

I thank you for your input though, I definitely agree this is likely a European issue whatever the reason why.

-GC
 
The impurity theory is interesting and it would be important to find out if there?s any merit to it!

I would be interested if there?s some psychological/character make-up that people with LTC share. For example dp/dr seems to happen especially to people with OCD, fearfulness, a lot of creative people, people who think a lot and have above average intelligence.

I?m not sure why the instances of LTC would become more then (if that?s even the case. Maybe it appears like that because more people read about neurotoxicity and more decide to write about their problems in a forum). Maybe its because more people take ecstasy than before, I don?t know the statistics.
 
Neither do I but it's a good place and time I suppose to start looking for those answers.

I think your right about the genetic factor, there is definitely a part of it that seems related to anxiety disorders.

Something interesting, someone I'm close with has worked physical therapy in a "vestibular" setting before. I'm not doctor or PT, but vestibular problems essentially fuck with you relation to the space around you and cause dizziness, vertigo, and other symptoms that seemed eerily similar to LTC. She also brought up how many of these people deal with anxiety disorders because the vestibular system is closely related to how your body reacts to anxiety. This seemed to ring a bell with many of the stories I've read over the past 7-8yrs, but not sure much else on that subject just thought might be worth sharing.

But back to the anxiety, OCD pre existing conditions.. You could very well be on to something, a thread which popped up recently where the guy was only a few days past a roll and very worried about visual snow. A few responses tried to calm him down and realize it's not detrimental and likely temporary but to no avail. If it were me and my first time with lasting weird symptoms, I'd probably think "oh well I guess took a powerful psychoactive, what more can I expect and everything fades in time."

I deal with all sorts of visual artifacts but I realize it's because I've taken mass amounts of drugs, a list of variety longer than most, and I'd say that's a pretty good trade off for years of fun and enlightenment. Id imagine my symptoms could freak some out though. But then there's obviously a difference between those with visual snow/after images and those who feel like an empty shell walking around with seemingly no purpose.

Your also right in that the internet has only become more and more of people's lives. I wonder if in the 90's people dealt with this??

About the impurity. The theory is this, PMK glycidate comes from China typically. Chinese anything is not known for being pure as snow. Once in awhile you get lucky but we can almost assume there's impurities present in most of the PMK glycidate shipped over. And we can also assume once arrived the chemists assume decent purity and proceed. Once completely synthesized acrylamide would be formed, along with a whole host of other toxic impurities.

Acrylamide has a decent amount of research on it as it's found in certain foods and is known to cause neurotoxicity. This neurotoxicity has been found to be associated with the serotonin system. This we know as fact.

Research shows that the toxicity is long lasting similar to what we see with LTC. It's also shown that the toxicity presents itself the same whether a large or multiple small doses, it just takes longer obviously to build up to with small doses.

With all of this the evidence is mounting that we may have a neurotoxic impurity problem on our hands, and at the very least it's toxicity on the Serotonin system is in combination with that of MDMA's neurotoxicity.

I made this thread to see if the problem is isolated to European countries, or people with Dutch/European sourced MDMA. As that would only further indicate PMK glycidate may be the culprit. Although I'm sure chemists elsewhere in the world use PMK glycidate, it seems more common in certain parts of the US to find MDMA synthesized from safrole.

Really hard to know the problem but my guess is no matter what, if people consume a high antioxidant rich diet/supplements before during and after the roll they'll negate most or all of the potential risk.

Which leads to one more thought I've had. The modern diet and food is poor in nutrition, a complete lack of antioxidants, vitamins and minerals. As we as a society progress into a more unhealthy state, we'll become more susceptible to the potential risks of things like taking MDMA for instance.

-GC
 
Yes, I really think some people with LTC have a tendency to obsess over symptoms and make them worse, that would otherwise disappear more quickly. Someone like you, who apparently doesn?t give a shit probably gets over symptoms way faster.

Because you mentioned the vestibular thing, I am sure tensions especially in the neck, but also in the diaphragm and psoas can cause issues from vision (neck) to anxiety in general, when the body is tense the mind can?t be fine. I get quite some relief when I stretch.
 
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^^Really?? Interesting... Maybe there is something to that after all.

Haha and I wouldn't say I don't give a shit. I'd say I have full confidence based on my research of the neuroplasticity of the brain and its ability to regrow if given the right materials and stimuli. I've also been on the brink of death more times than I care to admit, both self induced and not, so visual artifacts aren't too bad for me relatively. Again though I think we need to differentiate between some visual snow and the deep deep dark hole that is true MDMA LTC. I think some people with more hypochondriac like tendencies come here with minimal symptoms, read the horror stories, and then exacerbate their current state with more anxiety.

And this is part of the reason this illness is so difficult to treat. There seems to be so many facets to it, so many angles and possibilities..

-GC
 
One question about the impurity theory. What amount of impurities could there be in the "pure" MDMA of today, in percent?
It seem the neurotoxicity from acrylamide comes with several mg/kg/ for a long time, if I?m informed correctly. Single dose toxicity is estimated at 100mg/kg.
 
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That is unknown. And your right acrylamide alone needs a rather high dosage for a one off. But we don't know how it would effect someone who also took another known neurotoxin (mdma) at the same time. Acrylamide alone may need a high dosage, but when the bodies antioxidant system is completely compromised from MDMA (raising the free radicals in our bodies by 400%,) it makes one wonder what could happen. It's the synergy of the two I'm worried about.

Also modern LTC (2010 and beyond) doesn't really resemble the problems associated with MDMA before or acrylamide but seem to be a combination of the two.

One more thing, acrylamide toxicity is cumulative as well so may present for some after multiple sessions as we see with some reports.

We just got a thread in today where a man and his wife both contracted it after the same experience off the same presses. Here's that link..

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/841003-Please-help-me-to-understand-3-months-down-the-line

If anything that only further solidifies the theory that this is at least an issue with the product itself not the person taking it. Whether high dosage is to blame or not idk, but I can promise people have always been taking stupid high doses and never has problems quite to this extent.

-GC
 
But it would certainly be under 1mg in the case of "pure" product right? If acrylamide in combination with MDMA is so neurotoxic, that means you could get fucked up by eating a bag of chips after a roll doesn?t it?
 
Very little product out there is "pure" though. We are talking about illicit chemistry here, I can tell you from first hand experience very few people have ever tried 98+% purity product. (Please no one come in saying it can only reach 84%, if I hear that one more time I swear..)

Look up Dutch MDMA crystal in google and tell me what you see mostly. Brown nasty looking opaque rocks sold as "pure" MDMA. The greatest producer of MDMA in the world that everyone gushes over yet their product looks like literal shit. I've heard more people than I care to think about who've said they've never seen clear or even white/opaque MDMA crystal before.

Also the amount of acrylamide in potato chips is far far below that of 1mg in a bag. We are talking micrograms per kg, and it's still looked at as the potential culprit for certain problems in society.

With that said studies show MDMA damage even at 20mg/kg can be completely reversed, yet we know dosages far below that can have detrimental side effects. With acrylamide we have a substance that the food industry would rather not have to deal with so down playing its toxicity is in their best interest.

And even if acrylamide isn't the culprit there's a good amount of other toxic synthesis byproducts these "Dutch super labs" could care less to purify out. Look at the thread "What's wrong with MDMA available today?" And you'll see not only do we have a sudden rise in LTC reports but at the same time we have old timers complaining of the MDMA not being as good. I've watched someone drop a 150mg Dutch press and barely felt a thing, try doing that with some good quality crystal and you'd be blown away.

I've heard far too many Europeans talk about mdma like 100mg is a threshold dose and I don't think that comes down to cultural differences.

-GC
 
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Ok thanks for claryfying the purity issue. The pill I took blew me away with 160-180mg, pupils dilated all the way. But it was my first and only time so I can?t compare it to anything else. Do you have experience with dutch product and did it cause different effects on you or a harder comedown?

Potato chips contain around 1,2mg/kg acrylamide, even up to 4mg/kg. That?s why I was wondering.
 
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Very interesting posts here. G_Chem what you write about certain people, by having extensive experience with different kinds of drugs, being much less prone to develop chronic side effects is something I have thought about a lot myself

The thing is I am still on the fence regarding the root cause of the inconsistencies we see in these stories. Some people get absolutely no side effects as far as they can perceive even when taking frequent and high doses. Some people take 1 low dose pill and suffer for months. And I think I tend to agree with you on this though I'm not sure. I think that the initial side effects are common for most people but that it's the response to those side effects that makes all the difference. I do experience side effects after almost every roll, ranging from mild hallucinations to visual artefacts to sometimes some slight tremors or pins and needles. I have extensive experience with a lot of different drugs, mostly hallucinogens and so I am able to draw from this experience and put the side effects in perspective. I think on the other side of the spectrum you have people that do not have extensive experience, are already prone to anxiety issues, already have other issues, already have some kind of traumatic experience or a combination of those or other contributing factors. And I think in some cases, their mind latches onto these side effects instead of putting them into perspective. This slowly creates an anxiety loop which feeds on and in turn feeds the side effects they are experiencing. The physical manifestations of a serious anxiety issue can be very weird, very intense and are very similar to a lot of stories I read here. Someone very close to me had what everyone here would describe as a serious LTC for a year from a weed edible, that really opened my eyes and I've done a lot of research in that direction after that. I am not saying this is what happens in all cases, perhaps not even in most cases but I do think at least this rings true for a lot of cases, I truly believe that. And I also believe that once this realization dawns, recovery can progress rapidly. I think this realization is the single most important aspect of the entire road to recovery

Whether the initial side effects have a true physical cause I do not know. I have noticed the rise of 'inferior' MDMA and the seemingly simultaneous rise in reports of long term side effects as well. And up until a year or two ago I was firmly in the camp of "MDMA is MDMA, I just have a perma-tolerance" but then I came across 1 particular pill that completely blew me away, exactly like in the old days. The difference was so profound it seemed a different drug entirely, though my test kit said otherwise. A difference so profound I can't for the life of me explain it by just set and setting. I am not sure anymore so I am anxiously waiting for the research to shed some light on this, both on the cause of these side effects and on the difference in quality between batches of (sometimes lab) tested MDMA
 
I made a thread to ask those who are suffering from the illness with a whole bunch of names (mainly called LTC here, those who post in the recovery thread) to see where you are located in the world. I'd like to know if this problem is more associated with a particular area of the world.

Also a few more questions; if you know, where did the product come from? Also was the product tested via reagents or lab? What kind of lifestyle did you live up until that point (i.e. Diet, exercise, etc)? What was your prior usage of MDMA like leading up to the incident which gave you said symptoms? What was usage of other drugs like? How old are you?

I appreciate anyone who can give answers to this, for those in the LTC community please inform others of this thread so we can gather a decent base of information. This may not save you but if you could help us save someone else wouldn't you do it? Thank you for your time and I wish you the best.

-GC

Can you post polls, or is that just mods? It might be helpful to make this a poll, if you can think of a way of making the questions fit.
 
MDMA can cause hormonal imbalances but also theres something called BPC-157 which I used that effectively ended my LTC along with TRT therapy.
 
@randy- Yup your right in those numbers although I saw a chart saying it's declined to like 1mg/kg these days.

And I have not personally, where I live Dutch product has to travel a long ways. Most of the product I get is clear to semi opaque crystal that occasionally smell of safrole and likely from Canada. I've purchased a Dutch press one time which I gave to someone and was there to watch them take it, supposed 150mg, nice reagent reactions. Not much pupil dilation and they claimed it wasn't that great.

Not to say all Dutch presses are bad as it sounds your experience had you flying, did you suffer LTC from it?


@BlueBull- Your definitely on to something, when people have come to me in the past on a different forum the first thing I'd always tell them is this.. "You've got to believe your going to be ok, this will all pass. Because if you don't you'll never get better." Those that suffer the longest typically think they've done permanent damage and it's a hopeless situation. On the flip side I had someone who was pretty bad off recover in two months following some rather simple advice and being completely positive about it. In fact I'd never heard anyone that positive and his symptoms vanished in 2mos!

Something I hear often is the anxiety associated with just thinking about how bad it was, there's definitely a PTSD esque vibe to this illness as the fear/anxiety is tied to the memory.

I'll finish with this. How often do you see a person who's been using many drugs who develops this? Almost never. Typically it's people who are fairly responsible types, as Randy said intelligent, college kids, people on a good path and haven't been drowning their brains in feel goods like some of us. Using a lot of drugs may have desensitized some of us to deal better with what can come from drugs like MDMA, or "trained" us haha.

BlueBull I'm curious, what was this experience on? (Press or powder/crystal, what press or any description?) And if you could describe the experience a bit I'd be most appreciative. Just for my own curiosity.

@Tranced- Sadly I cannot. I checked via edit.

-GC
 
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