Those Suffering From LTC (long term MDMA related symptoms) A Few Questions..

[indigoaura]

Based on my own experiences, and the experiences of those around me, I am not convinced that LTC is developing as the result of an anxiety loop. I think there is a true physical component to it. My MDMA comedowns back in the day were pretty predictable. It was a head game. Depression/obsessing about weird things/being emotional. It lasted a week at most. Then boom, one day, back to normal. There is a reason why we all referred to the comedown as "Tuesday blues," because it would hit you on Tuesday after a weekend of partying and then you'd be done with. I do not consider myself to be someone who has had LTC, but I have had comedowns from newer MDMA that make me physically sick: dizzy, nauseous, blackouts, "brain zaps" etc. And these physical comedowns last way longer than a few days of being emo. It is physically different, and I do not believe I am any more prone to obsession or anxiety now than I was then. I never, ever, EVER had a brainzap from old MDMA, and I used to eat more than twice as much, and much more often.

I do think there are possible genetic issues at play. MTHFR mutations that impact methylation could make it more difficult for some people to effectively detox some of these impurities. Some people may even have allergies or sensitivities to the impurities that other people do not have. Example: I am allergic to nickel and copper. I have to pay close attention to what dentists use in my fillings as a result. That wouldn't bother most people, but it bothers me. I'm also allergic to latex...gotta pay more attention to band-aids than most people do too.

Then also consider the rising rate of autism, food sensitivities etc. in society. People, in general, are becoming more sensitive to environmental toxins.

So, it kind of makes sense that you may have a situation where impurities + genetic mutations + a new generation of more environmentally sensitive people = really horrible side effects.

 

[BlueBull]

I'm about to go to work so I will reply in full once I find some time this weekend. I already want to say though that if you want to make a poll G_Chem and you're not able to do so, send one of the moderators the questions and we will edit the thread and insert a poll for you

Thanks everyone for the input. This is the kind of discussion I love most about bluelight

 

[sick_guy]

I think LTC is caused by individual predisposition. I was one of 6-7 people that took crystal E from same batch. I took 300-320 mg, most of others took same amount or even more. And only I had severe LTC. One guy, who took same amount as I (but he weight ~25 kilos less than me) had only mild depersonalization for a month, and then was perfectly fine.

Here is quotation from pubmed that support this hypothesis:

Humans with genetic predisposition for the slow metabolism of MDMA, the so-called "poor metabolizers" of debrisoquin are at higher risk. Five- 9% of the Caucasian population is considered to carry this phenotype.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20962361

Also, not only Europeans suffer from LTC, here is post from guy from Brasil:

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...ME-I-GOT-BETTER-(good-to-be-fixed-in-the-top)

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Sorry for the wall of text

Those that suffer the longest typically think they've done permanent damage and it's a hopeless situation. On the flip side I had someone who was pretty bad off recover in two months following some rather simple advice and being completely positive about it. In fact I'd never heard anyone that positive and his symptoms vanished in 2mos!

Just to play devil's advocate, a bad attitude may be correlated with a slower recovery but may not be 100% driving it. Of course attitude certainly plays a role though and people need to be aware of that, but attitude is biologically driven IMO so if somebody has a positive attitude that could say something about the state of their brain. It could be that the people who are the most negative/ruminating (who tend to recover slower) are that way because the biology of their brain/body is worse off in some manner, and people who manifest a positive attitude could just have better biology and could be expected to recover faster irrespective of the attitude.

As far as the "LTC" vulnerable population being the typical college kids on a good path/not much drug use, I think that is true but there might actually be an observational/reporting issue here contributing a bit to it. It could just be that those are the types we're most likely to end up hearing about such issues with after they start googling and find bluelight, whereas a more involved drug user might develop issues after using E and may not ever really end up googling and reporting it here. They may be using so many drugs at once that they never really connect it to e.g. that one time they took 5 pressed pills and such. The college types of people are certainly more likely to freak out and have anxiety about it though which certainly doesn't help, but they could have increased internet access/googling tendencies.

Some people who sign up for bluelight just to talk about their symptoms in the MDMA recovery/support thread may also be doing so because they don't have anybody to relate to in real life, and I think it would tend to be the state-college type kids who tend to not have anybody to relate to who would feel compelled to make an account and start posting with others experiencing something similar

My biggest thing with the "LTC" people is that we shouldn't group them all into the same category under the banner of "LTC" because then people start conflating each other's outlooks and recoveries, and we ourselves start to group them all into a category (especially grouping them all into the following #1) -

1. Some people just have an anxiety type deal
2. Some people have chronically abused or took 2 grams in one night while overheating and drinking alcohol and taking amphetamine or something
3. Some people have odd cranial nerve symptoms/chronic brain zaps
4. Some people have the HPPD stuff
5. Some people have mostly just depression
6. Some people have a combination of those symptoms, including other odd ones like low blood pressure and insomnia (sometimes quite severe)
7. If you're Somedud you get a concussion (kicked in the head?) during your E use

So to hurl all of this under the banner of "LTC" sucks, its a convenient label but its too many different categories/syndromes for one label. Especially considering these syndromes aren't entirely unique to serotonin releasing agents (except for the cranial nerve/brain zap issues, those seem a bit specific to serotonin releasing agents).

There is probably some balance between not dismissing people's symptoms entirely as anxiety and on the other hand not reinforcing their symptoms. Its easy to end up telling everybody they have anxiety (when some people still have brain zaps months into their ordeal) and its easy for people who mainly have anxiety to get the idea that they're permanently screwed, and anxiety/a perceived shitty outlook will slow down people's recoveries.

I'll finish with this. How often do you see a person who's been using many drugs who develops this? Almost never. Typically it's people who are fairly responsible types, as Randy said intelligent, college kids, people on a good path and haven't been drowning their brains in feel goods like some of us. Using a lot of drugs may have desensitized some of us to deal better with what can come from drugs like MDMA, or "trained" us haha.

I do believe there are chronic poly-drug users who develop adverse effects and certainly psychonauts who develop HPPD, I had certainly used a lot of different drugs before I developed my issues but I always placed myself in more of a "chronic E abuse" kind of category rather than a "one pill caused all these symptoms" type category

I suppose I'll reiterate that the "one pill caused all these symptoms and I've hardly used any drugs ever before in my perfect mental health filled life" type person isn't the only person having adverse effects from E, although I typically see other people giving off the impression that those are the only people having issues with E

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I think LTC is caused by individual predisposition.

There are various genes that could function as risk factors, there is another gene relating to the serotonin transporter that increases the risk of adverse effects from serotonin depletion and MDMA abusers with that gene seem to be worse off as well

 

[G_Chem]

@BlueBull- Sounds good man, as soon as I got a moment this weekend I'll formulate something up and send it in.

@Cotcha- Was wondering when you'd pop in here. You make some excellent points that crossed my mind as well.

It's so hard because indeed our emotions and positivity is driven biologically and with LTC (all those labeled under such) the neurons responsible may be out of whack. Yet at the same time our thoughts do have weight on how our neurotransmitters act, and there's definitely something to positive thought training (which from my poor memory you've endorsed quite a bit.) It's this cyclical response which can go either way, both rely on each other.

I also think your very right that the average college kid who develops this is more likely to study and report their symptoms. Not only that but they've got a lot to lose, they've spent most of their lives being told college is important or you'll end up a loser so the pressure is high to not fuck up. They stay good until one party night someone offers them a press and their worlds flipped upside down, the guilt must be incredible feeling like you've made it so far and one slip up caused all this. I can only imagine..

The hard part about lumping everyone under LTC is this.. First off we know so little about what's going on, I'm assuming most cognitive illnesses like this (again for those reading this condition is temporary) start off as a general grouping then advance to subsections of said disease. Like there used to just be autism but now we have all sorts of sub categories which help us better define the particular problems that person faces. I see it same with LTC in that we are at the infancy of learning about this and while I can understand frustration we can't put the cart before the horse. In time we can better define, categorize and understand I feel.

With all that said I've come to realize I probably know substantially less about this issue that many here and will continue to learn from past posts.

-GC

 

[Tranced]

I'm about to go to work so I will reply in full once I find some time this weekend. I already want to say though that if you want to make a poll G_Chem and you're not able to do so, send one of the moderators the questions and we will edit the thread and insert a poll for you

Thanks everyone for the input. This is the kind of discussion I love most about bluelight

I don't think we can, or at least I can't work out how. The only thing I can think of that might work is to create a new poll and try and merge the posts, or possibly admin can do it.

You would need to come up with a succint list of questions that would work as a poll though.

Edit: Scrap that, got it. Thread tools > Add poll to this thread. G_Chem, if you want this to be a poll just pm/post the poll options.

 

[G_Chem]

So I'd say have the question ask, "For LTC Sufferers, What Part Of World Are You From?"


-North America
-South America
-Europe
-Asia
-Africa
-Australia
-Other

I'd love to have individual countries in there but I could see that getting too messy quick.

Also if there would be a way to tell people to post after they take the poll to explain their location better if they feel like it that'd be cool too. (Not sure how the poll works.)

Much appreciated!

-GC

 

[Tranced]

^Done. The best way to ask people to do that is to just stick it in bold in the main post. I also put your questions into a numbered list/tidied it up slightly to make it easier for people to interpret/answer.

 

[sick_guy]

ok, just to answer questions in first post.

Eastern/central Europe, 26 y.o., source: as far as I know, darknet. Product wasn't tested, but probably was of a good quality (it was white powder/crystals, as I heard, came from trusted supplier, and nobody else had problems close to mine after using it). Before LTC I was excercising reqularly (3-4 times per week at a gym), also had quite healthly diet. To be honest, I had some psychological problems (I'm pretty neurotic, had some depression episodes, also I'm a bit hypochondriac)

I used MDMA once before, in much lower dose, and then I also had harsh comedown (pretty high anxienty for a week, but I didn't connect this to drug use, but to what happend when I used a drug, silly me...).

Other drugs usage: weed, occasionally, and 3 times LSD - no problems with these.

 

[Berendje]

I?m from the Netherlands, also pills from the netherlands, 220mg blue laugh now cry later. Pills where tested and used in high amount by other friends. Took 1 pill divided over the evening but had a high starting dose. 0.5-0.75 pill, also did some mephydrone hours before. Didn?t eat that much before the trip and during the trip I had a tinteling feeling all over my head. The trip was really intense but good. Comedown was really bad. It was my first MDMA experience, had done weed, coke or speed before 10-15 times over 2 years.
My lifetyle was very active, working out 5 times a week, spending 50 hours a week for university and a working for a company.
Had been through a breakup just before and was also questioning my purpose in life. So it wasn?t a good time to take xtc. Bluebull mentioned anxiety in my topic, I think it could really be anxiety in my case, so working on that now. I?m in my 15?th month of ltc.
My symptoms are:
- anxiety
- muscle cramps
- sensitive to light and sound
- fatigue
- very bad concentration
- little VS and floaters since a few months

I sleep very well, that has never been a problem in my case.

My fatigue is even worse then in the beginning so I can imagine it?s due the anxiety that?s draining me.

 

[G_Chem]

Thank you immensely to everyone who's answered as well those who've helped this thread. BL is truly an amazing community that I'm glad to now be a part of, took me a long time to realize that.

-GC

 

[ixkx]

Hi all,
I'll gladly answer those questions, I'm from Central Europe (seeing I'm not the only one), 28y. My pills were from Netherlands - actually I had two that night, one from Darknet (190mg), another one from a friend (redose, only a quarter which was around 50mg), both tested using EZ test. I'm not sure about the origin of the second pill, from what I googled, I presume it was Netherlands too. Other friends had the same pills too (multiple times), no one experienced any of my problems.
It was only my fourth time trying E. But stupidly I was pretty reckless about preparation/rest/good diet when doing pills before, e.g. I donated blood the same day I tried the pill for the second time. Regarding other substances, I only tried alcohol and weed before, weed quite occasionally.

My lifestyle was pretty active, I was climbing 2/3 times a week, in a good shape before LTC (I'm doing my 6th month now). However, mentally I had a pretty rough year before LTC, I went through a breakup, quit a job, started a freelancing career which means working from home, a lot of stress.
At the moment I suspect it's all anxiety-related since I don't have HPPD or any mental impairment.

 

[sick_guy]

@Berendje

You said that you are in your 15-nth month. Are you improving overall?

 

[Berendje]

I didn't really improve, my comedown was only a week with heavy symptoms like brain zaps, flashbacks and muscle movement in my sleep. The symptoms I have now didn't really improve, its even worse cause in the beginning I had enough energy to deal with them. I ran out off energy now, so that makes it harder to deal with it. I have a tingling/numb feeling in my face sometimes and I know now that it's caused by stress/anxiety and tense muscles. So the last weeks I tried to handle my anxiety and that symptom with some others are better. Still the fatigue is really bad, but I can imagine it's from the draining anxiety.

 

[Berendje]

In the Netherlands we have a doctor who's specialized in drugs issues like xtc. (https://drugsinfoteam.nl/tips-hulp/medisch-spreekuur/spreekuur/) I contacted him a few months ago and they hear a lot hppd/ltc stories. They've seen the development of hppd is not dose-dependent, but they do see a rise in hppd/dp symptoms after taking high dose pills.
A few years ago they tend to think the symptoms, even hppd was due to a damaged or disturbed serotonin system. They described a high amount of SSRI for at least a year.
Nowadays, treatment is mostly done by therapy, rest, a constant sleep pattern and staying sober. Their prediction now is that the trip or comedown was so intense it left a 'trace'. Flashbacks, memory's that keep coming back. The drugs caused a traumatic experience that's causing al the symptoms. I don't know if I believe this story, but it could be ofcourse. I do know that things as CFS, sometimes beginning after a traumatic experience or a disease, is still a mystery for doctors. I've heard people recover after CBT or some other therapy and time.
In the case of flashbacks, the physical feelings, like tingling and numb feelings can be psychosomatic.

I also think that it's not likely we al caused neurotoxicity, here in the Netherlands there's done pretty good research to the damage MDMA/xtc can do by universities and labs. Also from what I know the pills produced in the Netherlands are pretty clean nowadays.
Ofcourse overheating or other complications can occur, but as long as you didn't pass away, had an epileptic reaction or such thing I don't think we could've done much damage. I have friends who mix up lsd, MDMA, ketamine, weed and some RC's for 2 days with raving and don't have our symptoms, they have other problems, like functioning at work/school etc due to partying every weekend.
So my speculating doesn't solve the problem and I wonder if we ever find out the cause of LTC/hppd. But it's interesting to try and find out, the mind is a very complicated thing for sure. This story is a little bit conflicting, given my symptoms it's hard for me to believe I didn't do any damage, but due to my research I think it's not likely.

 

[db1995]

1. If you don't mind saying, where specifically are you from (country/state)?
   
   North America
2. If you know, where did the product come from?
   
   Europe, they were pressed pills.
3. Also was the product tested via reagents and/or lab? Which?
   
   No
4. What kind of lifestyle did you live up until that point (i.e. Diet, exercise, etc)?
   
   Very healthy lifestyle. Exercise 3-5 days a week, lifting weights and cardio. Clean diet. Consumed alcohol moderately.
5. What was your prior usage of MDMA like leading up to the incident which gave you said symptoms?
   
   When I first started using it was once a month, but then I cut back to once a year. Did MDMA probably 15 times prior to LTC. Would do the pills that came in capsules (not pressed into a shape). usually .2 would have me gone. Have done up to .5 in one night and never had a comedown that lasted more than a couple days.
6. What was usage of other drugs like?
7. How old are you?
   
   22

 

[G_Chem]

So this is probably a stupid easy to figure out question but how do I see the poll? Lol it ain't showing up for me..

Also I think at least based on responses that it's becoming more clear my theory may be on to something.

After reading over experiences regarding LTC one common theme is it seems the symptoms don't pop up until days after the MDMA experience. I find this odd, but could still be explainable via MDMA as the sole cause. I truly feel there is another substance/impurity causing this to happen. The fact that it seems isolated to Dutch/European product shows it's likely an issue with production, also multiple people "contracting" it after the same experience on the same batch further solidifies that notion.

I've watched too many people take stupid doses of MDMA in good ol US of A and not experience half of what some people on here have dealt with.

Well thanks again and hope to keep gathering info on this subject.

-GC

 

[Tranced]

So this is probably a stupid easy to figure out question but how do I see the poll? Lol it ain't showing up for me..

Also I think at least based on responses that it's becoming more clear my theory may be on to something.

After reading over experiences regarding LTC one common theme is it seems the symptoms don't pop up until days after the MDMA experience. I find this odd, but could still be explainable via MDMA as the sole cause. I truly feel there is another substance/impurity causing this to happen. The fact that it seems isolated to Dutch/European product shows it's likely an issue with production, also multiple people "contracting" it after the same experience on the same batch further solidifies that notion.

I've watched too many people take stupid doses of MDMA in good ol US of A and not experience half of what some people on here have dealt with.

Well thanks again and hope to keep gathering info on this subject.

-GC

^To be fair though, I've seen people taking ridiculous amounts of MDMA in the UK (and generally non-eu posters seem a lot more conservative/careful in their MDMA use from what I've read on here over the years), and I've never in all my years of being heavily involved in ecstasy sub-culture heard of anybody claiming to have an "LTC"... my personal experience is that it's entirely a bluelight MED phenomenon. I have however known people to abuse drugs and develop anxiety/depression disorders through taking drugs, or to exasperate existing ones, or even get them as a matter of course, with symptoms no different from the LTC phenomenon.

It's also a stretch to say that because there have (so far) been more european posters in this thread than american (over the course of a couple of weeks), that it indicates an issue with production. There is no obvious causation between more european posters responding (so far), and it being a production issue. That could easily be explained by MDMA's widespread popularity/availability in europe, and/or the tendency to take excessively large amounts (especially given the abundance of 300mg pills).

It's important not to jump to conclusions here, or work things to fit a narrative.

 

[G_Chem]

True true, this forum is mostly people from Europe anyways I'm gathering.

I wouldn't jump to such ideas so quickly if it weren't for the fact there's evidence piling up in regards to the current method of production leaving toxic impurities/byproducts. (As has been discussed in the "What's wrong with MDMA available today? Thread.). I suppose my wording could have been better to show it's still a work in progress.

Ive also known people to get somewhat depressed or anxious after heavy use but not anything like here. I guess I also see a correlation between the change in production methods in Europe, (using impure Chinese PMK glycidate..) the complaints MDMA is different, and the LTC phenomenon. Its more than two pages of responses in this thread in particular. I hear people talk about mongy MDMA from the U.K. and elsewhere in Europe but I've never once encountered this myself and I've traveled all over the US and tried product from pretty much most parts of that country. I'm willing to bet the mongy phenomenon and the LTC phenomenon are connected somehow.

-GC