Pentagon to Allow Transgender Individuals to Enlist Despite Trump Objections

[cduggles]

Cduggles, I personally dont have any worry or cause for concern over the US spending its dollar on transgenders and surgery. In Aus the armed forces have their own health insurance and cover which gives them lifetime cheap health cover. Pretty much the same as anyone who has their own private health insurance.

These days the transitioning process IS recognised and at least partially funded by medicare, dept of vet affairs and the top health insurance providers.

Its got nothing to do with what you do for a job though. Medicare is there for everyone who is an Aussie citizen. Defense and vet affairs is there for all current and past armed forces personel.

So no matter what you do, if you are transgender and decide to go through any type of psychiatric valuation, counselling, hormone therapy and also some surgical treatments, you will get basic health cover towards the cost of this. Wait times are long but private health insurance lets you skip the queue.

Americans dont have the same type of medicare so maybe thats why theres a freak out of epic proportions over pretty much fuck all.





From seeing what instantly springs to mind from other discussions elsewhere and also various around here, the hoopla against transgenders being in the armed forces seems to be the notion that its just going to be seen as a way to get this surgery done without having to fork out for it. Theres no point in bothering correcting people who jump to that conclusion since it seems Trump did too.

I think thats absolutely ridiculous myself. But there you go. Trump was on tv a while back saying some shit like they couldnt afford it. Transgenders would drive America broke etc. etc. So Im just going to put it out there that some tv coverage of Trump banging on about ignorant shit has started the whole debacle. Again.

Ive read up about the military requirements and anyone who wants to join up faces rejection should they not meet the requirements. I would not pass any of the tests.



At the end of the day, if someone wants badly enough to enlist then that person will do what it takes training wise to qualify. Having to pass fitness tests based on stats of male and female physical levels of endurance is mandatory to everyone .


As a side note, at work this week I got to dissect the mastectomy specimens of a couple of transgender patients, its recognized and covered in part by medicare so is affordable and not elective anymore. Quite an easy money earner for us in the lab. I didnt really know how effective the hirmone treatment is until I saw these massive sets of breasts covered in chest hair. Pretty amazing stuff.

Australia is so far ahead of America on so many issues. I have really enjoyed learning more in CE&P.

And doing dissections, very, very cool. I love doing them!!

I also could not pass any fitness tests.

 

[JahSEEuS]

Blue Phlame makes a hell of a lot of sense here.

qft

not really much to add to the argument here.

 

[David Wooderson]

I don't care if the cost was a tenth of a centillion dollars, I don't want my tax money going to humor someone's delusions.


This article pretty much sums up my feelings on the topic and why the military shouldn't would accept people with this mental disorder let alone pay for expensive treatment that is natural and harmful.

Transgender Surgery: Regret Rates Highest in Male-to-Female Reassignment Operations

By Lizette Borreli On 10/3/17 at 1:30 PM

Gender-confirmation surgeries—the name given to procedures that change the physical appearance and function of sexual characteristics—increased by 20 percent from 2015 to 2016 in the U.S., with more than 3,000 such operations performed last year. Rates are also increasing worldwide. Now, at least one surgeon is reporting a trend of regret.


Urologist Miroslav Djordjevic, who specializes in gender reassignment surgery, has seen an increase in “reversal” surgeries among transgender women who want their male genitalia back. In the past five years, Djordjevic performed seven reversals in his clinic in Belgrade, Serbia. The urologist explains to The Telegraph that those who want the reversal display high levels of depression, and in some instances, suicidal thoughts. Other researchers also report hearing about such regrets.


“It can be a real disaster to hear these stories,” Djordjevic told The Telegraph.


Charles Kane, who identified as Sam Hashimi after male-to-female reassignment surgery, opted to become a man again after experiencing “hormonal regret.” In the BBC documentary One Life: Make Me a Man Again, Kane explained he originally wanted to become a woman after a nervous breakdown.


“When I was in the psychiatric hospital, there was a man on one side of me who thought he was King George and another guy on the other side who thought he was Jesus Christ. I decided I was Sam,” Kane said.


Postsurgery, Kane believed his female identity would never be liked or accepted as a real woman. He also blamed the influence of female hormones as responsible for making him seek the surgery. “I don’t think there’s anyone born transsexual. Areas of their human brain get altered by female hormones,” Kane told Nightline.


Kane’s insight may not be applicable to all transgender patients seeking reversal surgery. Djordjevic expresses concern about the psychiatric evaluation and counseling that take place prior to the gender reassignment surgery. He recalls patients telling him that when they inquired about the procedure at other clinics, they receive minimal information before being asked for proof that they could pay for the operation.


In Djordjevic’s practice, patients undergo a minimum of one to two years of psychiatric evaluation, accompanied by hormonal evaluation and therapy. Prior to the surgery, he asks patients for two professional letters of recommendation. After the procedure, he strives to remain in contact—he talks with 80 percent of his former patients, The Telegraph reports.


A 2011 study found that after sex reassignment surgery, more than 300 Swedish transsexuals faced a higher risk for mortality, suicide ideation, and psychiatric issues compared to the rest of the population. The researchers concluded, “Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.”


In male-to-female reassignment surgery, doctors will reshape the male genitals in the form of a vagina. The surgery also includes removing the testicles and an inversion of the penis. In female-to-male procedures, doctors remove the breasts, uterus and ovaries and extend the urethra so a transgender man can urinate standing up. Male-to-female reassignments are more common because they are considered less expensive and more successful.


Gender reassignment surgeries are expensive. Male-to-female procedures cost between $7,000 and $24,000, and the cost of female-to-male procedures can reach $50,000. The complications and the expense warrant extra care from doctors performing these reassignments. “Ethically, we have to help any person,” says Djordjevic, “in the best possible way.”

http://www.newsweek.com/transgender-women-transgender-men-sex-change-sex-reassignment-surgery-676777

 

[tathra]

Federal judge says Trump administration can’t stop funding sex-reassignment surgeries for military members

...
In issuing the preliminary injunction, the judge found the challengers likely to prevail in asserting that the president’s order violates equal-protection guarantees in the Constitution as well as the rights of service members to medical care.
...

admittedly i havent dug that deep, but i've only found one soldier approved for sex reassignment surgery, an OEF veteran. if that bothers you, does it also bother you that i've had the VA pay for surgeries and treatments for me, and pay for all kinds of other things for me? or is the problem not veteran and soldier care in general, just the fact that money is being spent on transgender individuals, even when they're veterans? would you suddenly have a problem with all the benefits i've gotten from the government and VA if i came out as transgender?

 

[JessFR]

Personally. At one surgery so far I think this is a pile of bullshit. Probably costs more to change the system to prevent it than the actual cost of the operation. It's a joke.

It's not really about money. If you care about money you care about money. People who are happy to waste more money to stop wastes of money don't really care about the money they care about the affront to their values. They care about sending the right message.

And I detest message senders.

 

[alasdairm]

indeed. we touched on this earlier in the thread when a post seemed to imply that this was a common occurrence and many people were taking advantage of this to get taxpayer-funded surgery when that's not the case.

if people have an issue with their tax dollars being wasted, i assume they have a significant problem with trumps vacations, vacation security, etc.?

alasdair

 

[tathra]

It's not really about money. If you care about money you care about money. People who are happy to waste more money to stop wastes of money don't really care about the money they care about the affront to their values. They care about sending the right message.

agreed. people need to be honest with themselves, and everybody else. i have a hell of a lot more respect for bigots and xenophobes if they're honest about it, but the ones that hide behind dog whistles and insinuations and then pretend like they're martyrs, all shocked, offended. and victimized, when called out on the obvious make me sick. its like dude, just be honest because you're a terrible liar and we're not fucking morons, you'd at least get some respect if you had the integrity to stand up for what you believe in, no matter how backwards and delusional those beliefs are. by hiding behind deceit and manipulation, you're tacitly admitting that you know that shit is fucked up and wrong and has no place in civil society. but when you're able to stand up for your beliefs and be honest about holding them, then we can open a dialogue about their validity and the soundness of the arguments supporting them.

 

[swilow]

This article pretty much sums up my feelings on the topic and why the military shouldn't would accept people with this mental disorder let alone pay for expensive treatment that is natural and harmful.

Transgender Surgery: Regret Rates Highest in Male-to-Female Reassignment Operations

The article says nothing about transgender and the military.

The doctor that is interviewed mentioned 7 sex change reversals in 5 years. That is hardly evidence of anything. Of course, some people will regret it but it would appear the majority do not.

You haven't made a point besides reiterating your own bias. Thanks David

 

[JessFR]

agreed. people need to be honest with themselves, and everybody else. i have a hell of a lot more respect for bigots and xenophobes if they're honest about it, but the ones that hide behind dog whistles and insinuations and then pretend like they're martyrs, all shocked, offended. and victimized, when called out on the obvious make me sick. its like dude, just be honest because you're a terrible liar and we're not fucking morons, you'd at least get some respect if you had the integrity to stand up for what you believe in, no matter how backwards and delusional those beliefs are. by hiding behind deceit and manipulation, you're tacitly admitting that you know that shit is fucked up and wrong and has no place in civil society. but when you're able to stand up for your beliefs and be honest about holding them, then we can open a dialogue about their validity and the soundness of the arguments supporting them.

I feel the same way. I wish people would just be honest about it. If you're a racist, at least own it. Don't try to pretend you're not because you feel like people will reject you for it.

It's funny how common "I'm not am X, but.." really means "I am an X, and.."

 

[JahSEEuS]

indeed. we touched on this earlier in the thread when a post seemed to imply that this was a common occurrence and many people were taking advantage of this to get taxpayer-funded surgery when that's not the case.

if people have an issue with their tax dollars being wasted, i assume they have a significant problem with trumps vacations, vacation security, etc.?

alasdair

Let's be fair. This is like when someone criticizes Trump then Trump supporter comes in and says "well, but Obama did this". We are not discussing Trumps vacations, or security in this thread. We are discussing the Pentagon allowing transgender individuals to enlist.

 

[tathra]

Let's be fair. This is like when someone criticizes Trump then Trump supporter comes in and says "well, but Obama did this". We are not discussing Trumps vacations, or security in this thread. We are discussing the Pentagon allowing transgender individuals to enlist.

trump is relevant to this discussion because he's decreed that transgenders be b& from the military. being the commander in chief (the pentagon's boss), he's relevant to pretty much any discussion about the military; and ditto for the federal government since he's the head of the executive. past presidents, on the other hand,typically arent.

 

[alasdairm]

Let's be fair. This is like when someone criticizes Trump then Trump supporter comes in and says "well, but Obama did this". We are not discussing Trumps vacations, or security in this thread. We are discussing the Pentagon allowing transgender individuals to enlist.

it's a segue but it is relevant. david wooderson stated that his problem is entirely and specifically with the cost. just looking for some consistency.

alasdair

 

[JahSEEuS]

Then I'm sure you have no problem when people bring up Obama in terms of healthcare or when criticizing the current president, since, you know, he was a president and had that one healthcare act.

 

[alasdairm]

i disagree that there's a parallel here.

alasdair

 

[oestrogenprinsessa]

]What happens when they can't receive their hormones is irrelevant provided it doesn't affect their ability to do their job.[/SIZE] Which I see not obvious reason it would, though you're welcome to attempt to present one. Preferably with either sources or an argument born of knowledge.

this is offensively wrong.

Also you're wrong. Lots of people identify as transgender with no hormones or surgery. And lots use hormones but not surgery. By its nature they're a diverse group.

If you wanna make an argument go ahead but you should at least know something about what you're argument cause otherwise you're talking out if your ass. A wise person knows what they don't know and when they shouldn't have an opinion because of it.

Having opinions on subjects you know nothing about is the sign of a fool.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing, but there is something wrong with deciding what you want the truth to be then trying to argue it and prove it with no interest at all in what the reality of the situation is

?


compare the familiarity that JessFR's posts have with the trans community, really entry level discourse, with the understanding cduggles has demonstrated throughout his interactions in the thread.

It is so bizarre to me that a group that knows what stigma is like, drug users, that seeks specific and expensive medical care without stigma in different forms depending on what you believe (MAT, rehab, redesigned rehab, legalized shooting galleries, legalized marijuana, needle exchange, emergency medical care for drug-related issues like abscess care or fecal impaction, etc.) is so clear on the 'fact' that transgender individuals are just messed up people. Guess what? That's what most people think about addicts.

You can say this is about military service or whatever, but really it's not. It's as obvious as people who believe that ODs are all suicides, because who would want to live like that? Why not just let them die? You know, thin the herd.

It's hateful and disgusting.

 

[JahSEEuS]

Federal judge says Trump administration can’t stop funding sex-reassignment surgeries for military members


admittedly i havent dug that deep, but i've only found one soldier approved for sex reassignment surgery, an OEF veteran. if that bothers you, does it also bother you that i've had the VA pay for surgeries and treatments for me, and pay for all kinds of other things for me? or is the problem not veteran and soldier care in general, just the fact that money is being spent on transgender individuals, even when they're veterans? would you suddenly have a problem with all the benefits i've gotten from the government and VA if i came out as transgender?

Depends on if what they did for you was elective surgery / treatments

 

[CFC]

It is so bizarre to me that a group that knows what stigma is like, drug users, that seeks specific and expensive medical care without stigma in different forms depending on what you believe (MAT, rehab, redesigned rehab, legalized shooting galleries, legalized marijuana, needle exchange, emergency medical care for drug-related issues like abscess care or fecal impaction, etc.) is so clear on the 'fact' that transgender individuals are just messed up people. Guess what? That's what most people think about addicts.

This is a very good point. It's not unlike the way steroid injecting bodybuilders ostracise recreational 'drug users'; or the way recreational drug users look down on 'steroid users'. There's comfort in placing some other group beneath our own.

 

[oestrogenprinsessa]

hormone replacement therapy is not elective. nor are sex reassignment surgeries comparable to cosmetic elective surgeries. you do not understand these treatments, their justifications, or their outcomes.
@ JahSEEus

This is a very good point. It's not unlike the way steroid injecting bodybuilders ostracise recreational 'drug users'; or the way recreational drug users look down on 'steroid users'. There's comfort in placing some other group beneath our own.

everyone hates transsexuals we're fair game for this kind of nonsense and inspection of our lives and bodies as if they exist merely for voyeuristic consumption by "normal" society.

 

[swilow]

^I don't think everyone hates transsexuals. There are a number posting in this thread who do not.

I'm truly sorry you feel that way.

 

[JahSEEuS]

It's either elective surgery or a mental disorder. Your choice.

If it's a mental disorder I can see why some people would argue that transgender military personal can be a detriment to the purpose of our armed services.

If it's elective surgery, I can see why people would get upset about paying for it out of their tax dollars.

I personally don't care one way or the other and I certainly don't hate transsexuals or consider them "fair game" for any "nonsense" or "inspection".

If you can perform your duties without the use of HRT or other medications (the likes of which would disqualify any non-trans individual) by all means go for it.