Kratom a popular substitute for opiates, may cause addiction and even death FDA warns

[Rantanplan]

For me Kratom is a bliss, because I suffer from chronic back pain. Sure I can get Tramadol from my doctor (like in the past), but I don't want that shit.
May be this is the reason why they want to ban it. Damn it.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

A mod should transfer this to cep...we are off topic my friend. Im not a gun guy (unless its a 22) so juet going by what I read. This tells me fully automatic weapons are illegal.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...ath-orlando-gop-sen-ron-johnson-says-assault/

Automatic weapons -- banned

Automatic weapons -- sometimes known as fully automatic, or machine guns -- fire continuously when the trigger is held down.

Two federal laws have essentially banned them in the United States.

One law in 1935 all but banned automatic weapons like the Tommy gun. And another in 1986 prohibited fully automatic weapons, except for pre-existing weapons that were grandfathered in.

Semiautomatic weapons -- not banned

We are way off topic and I don't really know.

 

[JessFR]

I do know, I grew up around these types, heard the laws and politics a millions times, seen it all first hand.

Your article is more misleading than wrong. As it says here..

One law in 1935 all but banned automatic weapons like the Tommy gun. And another in 1986 prohibited fully automatic weapons, except for pre-existing weapons that were grandfathered in

Just like I said, two relevant laws, the big one being the 1986 gun control act just as I remembered. The way in which they are misleading is there are many thousands grandfathered in from back then, and you can buy a modern ar-15 built today, put in an autosear component and maybe a couple other things defined by the law as being what parts of the gun make it a gun, built in the early 80s, and presto, new legal machine gun.. Mostly new anyway. New enough that there is little danger of the existing number deminnishing to non existence any time soon.

There is a whole market for class 3s. Expensive, but thousands expensive not hundreds of thousands expensive. Within reach of the middle class wealthy and above so inclined.

There is another legal trick too, it's also legal to get an FFL and manufacturing permit and build your own automatic from scratch, not too hard for someone with basic machining know how. And what is defined as a legitimate gun manufacturer can be a little dubious. Is a guy with a garage a gun manufacturer? Sure, so long as he has an FFL and a permit from the ATF.

Trust me man, I was around gun nuts my whole adolescent life, I know the rules, the broad version anyway I might have forgotten some of the details. The point is there are many Americans out there with legal automatic weapons that look pretty modern.

The article is a little misleading with how illegal "basically illegal" is. Probably not on purpose, they probably weren't sure themselves. Trust me if you'd seen what I've seen you wouldn't be thinking they were "basically" illegal

Anyways, you're welcome to research it more if you like if you still find it hard to believe, I wouldn't blame you. You wouldn't think they are legal. And the legal situation is sufficient to keep any amount of crime being associated with them which combined with the mistaken belief that they are unattainable is why nobody has done anything further since 86. It is completely irrelivent as far as high profile mass shootings go, all are with much cheaper and easily obtained semi autos, none have involved any class 3s.

A similar situation exists with silencers (or suppressors being the more correct word in the minds of most gun nuts). They are also widely believed to be illegal but can still be attained with a class 3. But you're right, it's off topic so I'm happy to end my part of this side discussion here.

 

[cj]

Gosh.
In response to Foreigner : I understand n agree with all you've stated; so damned sorry about that ulcer pain you talked about. I had that issue years ago but my ulcers repaired/ recovered over time with diet and acid-control medicine at the time. (That same medicine is now linked to kidney disease n stroke risks. Geezz).

Lucid: I also see where you're coming from . It would be nice however, if the Doctors would simply state professionally " this patient has This Problem therefore the use of This Drug IS warranted." How come they seemingly so Rarely do this?

The DEA (*don't get me wrong) is CERTAINLY a greater evil than old doctor whats-it who suddenly jerks the script outta the hands of the suffering patient (as you stated at least in Theory it's not always doctor whats-it's Fault as the DEA breathes down his neck , making license-grabbing threats. )

I think its disgusting however when its obvious a patient needs a med. And doc knows it too.
Why can't they have it?
Oh the DEA says no.
Why IS big Pharma producing the drugs if eventually nobody's allowed to have them? ?????


There's a force here we haven't discussed n i personally don't wanna be the one to bring it up.
Ah Hell who cares? if ya cant talk on BL where can ya talk?

Our own (USA ) govt does NOT have its hands Clean , as far as collaboration in BRINGING the (illegal) drugs into our borders n into our streets. This is my firm belief over many years of simply Being an American citizen n watching how these "drug epidemic scenarios " play out. The end result .... to see the end result you gotta look BACK at the start of the process n view the whole picture.
In the 90s--- mid 2000s (first decade therein) our American doctors were ridiculously generous in handing out opiate and benzo both medications. . . . Later things get scheduled by (you guessed it your friend n mine the good old dea ).... then docs refuse scripts. To allllllll these LITERALLY millions of ppl who actually medically need pain relief / crippling -anxiety relief . Even if their meds are gettin yanked, for God's sake the docs should TAPER THEM. but noooooo . Ppl were Dropped off their meds, labelled as dependant / addicted and marked down in the DEA system as DRUG SEEKERS

(PLEASE let there be Nobody try to argue this point with me by saying THAT is not what happened. I KNOW it for fact as it happened to me Personally in 2008. )

So for a great many individuals, the loss of access to meds their minds n bodies were accustomed to OF COURSE led to their securing the same or similar substances via now-illegal means. Some of the 'similar' substances of course being illegal to possess/ transport or even use.

Who benefits from any of this? A million ppl breaking the law?
I don't know that old doctor whats-it got any kickbacks..... he only benefits if he can convince the patient n their ins co to pay ungodly prices for the latest medical or mental health "treatment ", whatever he deems that to be *which happens to-
soooooo often be the latest greatest newest most expensive single -patented med on the big Pharma market.

A few years roll by n your ten o'clock news is saying we're in the midst of the Greatest Epidemic blah blah blah. ....
It's pretty glaringly obvious the bottom line is the dollar sign, Prison is AN INDUSTRY and nobody will convince me this point is incorrect. Not when I have seen actual murderers get an 8-year stretch while a girl selling Ice gets a 25-year federal jolt.

There have to be a dozen OTHER components to this "epidemic"as well that i have not mentioned. I just wanna make sure ppl see where iiiiiiiiiiiii am coming from. This component is real. It's true. It's ALL around us and my heart breaks n my stomach turns every goddam time a news report BLAMES THE PATIENTS WHO BECAME ADDICTED TO MEDS for our "nation's greatest crisis/ opioid epidemic "----- good thing I'm typing not voicing as I would vomit on the words.

It pisses me off so much.
Thanks America !

Your exactly right.

 

[JessFR]

I wouldn't go that far. I certainly don't disagree on the "this is what happened" part. It is what happened. I'm just a little less cynical about the motives. I never assume conspiracy when incompetence and stupidity are as likely a reason.

People are stupid, politicians are no exception, in some ways they are worse because politics makes you comfortable with this whole doublethink mindset of different realities you gotta pretend to believe in to different audiences. The whole system is inherently corrupting.

Ultimately I'm not sure how much the reason actually matters. The result is the same either way, the people get royally screwed over.

 

[FlawedByDesign]

Americankratom.org/donate... if anyone wants to donate for lobbyists and what not.

 

[MushroomRyder25]

The main part I don't agree with about RunningFox's post is the word "anxiety". Opioids were overprescribed for a time, I believe that, but Benzos still are. My mother (just one of a few I know) has rx's for klonopin, ativan, and xanax.....they leave here tired though and soooooo.....ADDERAL!!!! TADAAAAA!!!
Forgive my spelling, I'm sure I messed up one or two as well as tada lol. I realize your main focus was on the epidemic and not Benzos but just because you mentione anxiety I wanted to add that I think anxiety, at least in southern NH, is treated in an oversimplified way by using Benzos as if they're magic. I realize in the moment they are but after an hour or so not so much and in the long term I found them to cause much more harm than good for me personally.

But I do agree with your post aside from the benzo part.....anxiety can be crippling but it can also be overstated by the patient and for some people learning to face reality will solve way more problems than wearing a very short acting bandaid ever could.

 

[Chemist4Hire]

“The increasing use of kratom as an alternative or adjunct to opioid use is extremely concerning.”

Not if users want to have their receptors heal while tapering use of kratom instead of prolonging symptoms with all FDA approved methods like Suboxone/Methadone.

Kratom, a Southeast Asian plant known for its opiate-like effects, may put users at risk of addiction and even death, the US Food and Drug Administration said in a public health advisory today. The drug has been rising in popularity as an opioid alternative.

It hits a different receptor that is far less addicting and yes it can cause repertory failure but what analgesic/narcotic/sedative doesn't?

Kratom, which has been consumed in Southeast Asia for centuries, binds to the same opioid receptor as morphine — so it can treat pain. Some chemists figure it’s a promising starting point for new, less addictive painkillers. But it’s currently taken as a recreational drug, with its users saying it treats anxiety, depression and opioid withdrawal.

It does not bind to the same receptor as morphine!!
You would think with all their doctors and chemists they would know that? It binds to the Delta-opioid receptors not the Mu-receptor like diacetylmorphine, hydromorphone, oxymorphone and buprenorphine.

These anecdotal reports aren’t the same as real medical research — and more is needed to determine the plant’s medical benefits. “At a time when we have hit a critical point in the opioid epidemic,” the FDA statement said, “the increasing use of kratom as an alternative or adjunct to opioid use is extremely concerning.”

I would argue most users with medical knowledge would know far more than any doctor could. Lack of experience is the cause of many doctor patient mishaps, mostly doctors underestimating what withdrawals and addiction is like.

Last year, the US Drug Enforcement Administration announced its plans to name the substance a Schedule I drug, the most restrictive classification alongside heroin and LSD which restricts medical research. After a public outcry, the DEA decided to postpone its decision, and asked the FDA to weigh in.

Ohh my word, if this is done, I have lost all hope. Where they gonna put it? right next to Marijuana LMAO? The DEA/FDA and Controlled Substance Act is archaic and outdated, any knowledgeable member of science and chemistry knows that list is a joke.

The potential safety risks for kratom raise “significant concerns,” according to the FDA. The FDA is aware of 36 deaths linked to the use of products containing kratom. Calls to poison control centers regarding kratom have increased 10-fold from 2010 to 2015.

Funny because I can not find a single death related to Kratom alone! every report I've seen has been laced or combined with others. They are more likely to die from the misinformation the FDA and DEA has told the general public about Kratom than it's alkaloids. Probably the only reason anyone is calling the poison control center for Kratom overdoses is because they have been riddled with misinformation and wrongfully fear for their life.

For now, kratom is widely available online and in some stores. But it may be laced with other substances, such as opioids like hydrocodone, the FDA says. Taking kratom is also linked to serious side effects like seizures, liver damage, and withdrawal symptoms.

No fucking way Kratom is gonna be laced with any pharmaceutical opioids like Hydrocodone! It would be to costly to do so to make it an effective amount and why would any Kratom dealer ruin their good name of being Organic entheogen suppliers like that for what to waist money and get bad rep? I think not, maybe if the FDA and DEA was lacing it for some agenda to get more money funneled through official channels once approved.

People who are taking the product to treat depression and opioid addiction may be putting themselves at risk, the agency says. “Patients addicted to opioids are using kratom without dependable instructions for use and more importantly, without consultation with a licensed health care provider about the product’s dangers, potential side effects or interactions with other drugs,” FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb wrote in the advisory.

LOL, because no pharmaceutical is dangerous and doesn't have a side effect and danger list as long as the manuscript for failed marriages in America?

If companies want to market kratom for its supposed health benefits, they should go through the FDA’s drug review process, Gottlieb said. That way the product can be assessed for its safety and effectiveness. But for now, no company has tried to properly develop a drug that includes kratom.

What they mean by this is, market it for pharmaceutical use and profit by the billions shutting out all competition and making it extremely hard for the common citizen in need to get. instead they should use a synthetic with unknown side effects and dangers from a doctor more worried about his paycheck than your health over a natural medicine made from nature with thousands of years of documentation throughout the world.

“THOSE USES MUST BE BACKED BY SOUND SCIENCE.”
“While we remain open to the potential medicinal uses of kratom, those uses must be backed by sound science and weighed appropriately against the potential for abuse,” Gottlieb wrote. Until someone does the science the agency is requesting, the FDA will attempt to prevent shipments of kratom from entering the US. The agency has already detained hundreds of packages at international mail facilities.

Whether kratom will eventually be banned, however, depends on the Drug Enforcement Administration. The DEA will review the FDA’s assessment and make a determination, says DEA spokesperson Wade Sparks. “That would be the next step and that has always been historical the process,” Sparks tells The Verge.

What they mean by this is, they would rather use a paid insider corporation in the back pocket of the FDA/Big pharma giants to give the government its fair share of profit along with those first class flights for all the doctors getting bonuses for peddling it out to patients knowing the new synthetic version may have 10 times the side effects of Kratom when its made in labs and these tests will be aimed with the goal of making the drug look dangerous so only the pharma companies with doctor supervision could supply, manufacture and distribute.

 

[davestate]

Mitragynine absolutely does act as a partial agonist at µ-opioidreceptors, it is an opioid, albeit with a reduced potential for adverse effects and addiction, but people can and do get addicted to it.

Still I think it'd be interesting if a company did put kratom through clinical trails to release it to the market. I mean, if it's everything people say it is, then being able to get it in standardised doses without the possibility of it being contaminated by unknown heavy metals, pesticides or other chemicals would be a bonus too. It's never gonna happen, and personally I think it's benign enough to legalised a la cannabis, but considering how relatively new it is to the western world and that it's an opioid, it's likely to be nigh on impossible

 

[Jabberwocky]

From what I understand kratom is a little different in that its alkaloids are more active at kappa receptors than mu, and more opioids that are "fun" are mostly active at mu. Kratom is definitely an opioid, but not the same as morphine.

And just to point out, methadone and buprenorphine certainly don't "prolong" addiction when used properly (or when used in any way other than the most extremely foolish) or any of that misinformed garbage. When used properly they are far more effective than kratom is for many people (not all, but many, likely more than not).

What methadone and buprenorphine having going for them is that their use requires engagement with broader healthcare support, which is necessarily in terms of getting the support one needs to stabilize post addiction (therapy, IOP, psych meds, physicals, etc), but that's also what kratom has going for it - not requiring a doctor's appointment. Not having medical oversight could be a good thing or a bad thing for someone trying to get off other opioids, depending on their situation.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Source on kratom pharmacology?

 

[busted.produk]

Every time i read about kratom on bluelight i get discouraged by some of the misinformation that keeps being repeated.

I apologise for posting this link again but it seems like a lot of people dont know where to look for pharmacodynamics, pharmacokinetics and the like, relating to kratom alkaloids.

https://youtu.be/F_yY99gkvX8 is a lecture from a reputable source(who's been scientifically studying the effects of drugs for years) with current facts.

Please watch. Be informed.

 

[Jabberwocky]

^nice long video, but I'm watching What was your comment referencing in this thread?

 

[MushroomRyder25]

^nice long video, but I'm watching What was your comment referencing in this thread?

I wondered the same thing. I can't find anything on that guy aside from some YouTube videos.
I know he's who he claims to be but I haven't found anything big related to kratom aside from that video I mean.

 

[busted.produk]

I wondered the same thing. I can't find anything on that guy aside from some YouTube videos.
I know he's who he claims to be but I haven't found anything big related to kratom aside from that video I mean.

Toothpastedog: starting from the original post(along with EVERY other kratom thread), there are non-facts and incorrect ideas that have been repeated and debated.
Not just one in particular.

Mushroomryder: he has published work on the ncbi website and papers written on addiction research from university of florida and university of missississpi.

I stumbled on some statistics quoted(about kratom) with his name by them a little over a year ago and then started searching for him specifically. I ended up finding many different research papers he authored on kratom, coke, meth, etc that were focusing on addiction and neuroscience.
If you dig around online, theres pleanty.

I was really excited to find that video posted(and recorded) recently because i had become familiar with his name and work

 

[Jabberwocky]

I was curious as to what particularly myths and misconceptions about kratom you commonly see on BL. If for no other reason than to try and correct for them when I come across them.

Overall BLers don't seem to know as much about kratom as other opioids, but their knowledge of kratom hasn't (generally) seems too horrible (I mean there are some silly comments about withdrawal not being uncomfortable or it not being an opioid, but most seem pretty on point).

Just a very curious person thanks. I'll also admit I only watched the first 30 minutes of that video

 

[MushroomRyder25]

Overall BLers don't seem to know as much about kratom as other opioids, but their knowledge of kratom hasn't (generally) seems too horrible (I mean there are some silly comments about withdrawal not being uncomfortable or it not being an opioid

I'll be completely honest and I'll say in advance - and I mean this if I'm wrong - I'm sorry for assuming Busted.
But based off of your initial comment I took/have taken you for someone who thinks Kratom is a miracle drug. One of those people who thinks there are no downsides to it, that it isn't addictive, has no withdrawal, and can't cause any negative symptoms. This isn't true
...although I'm not saying you actually are one of those people, I just took it on a gut reaction to assume that and I was wrong in doing so.

I understand very little of the "pharmakodynamics" or whatever it's called of anything....so I don't think that video is for me. But are you one of those people? Do you feel that way? I still don't get the point. I'm not trying to argue, I use kratom multiple times a day, everyday. I've never been discouraged here on blue light reading about it. I've been relieved....knowing I'm not the only one who has withdrawal when I go without.

Sometimes I feel like people lie about that because the Internet is a public forum and they don't want to spread the unfortunate truth about their crutch on a public site, fearing that will aid in leading to the end....which IMO is inevitably near.

 

[Jabberwocky]

As far as I'm concerned kratom is an opioid very similar to tramadol (although it also has some stuff in common with oxycodone/etc), that's the closest comparison I can make. In terms of withdrawal, kratom is a lot more manageable than coming off a heavy full agonist opioid habit, with less intense physiological symptoms, but the psychological aspect of withdrawal is fucking horrible (super restless, etc). What I dislike the most about kratom is how short acting stuff like 7-HM is. I much prefer dosing maintenance stuff once a day (like how most people do methadone).

From what little I know it seems like some of the alkaloids in kratom are only partial agonists, but I have no evidence on this one way or another. It does make sense from anecdotal experience I've had, such as when I've taken full agonist opioids later in the day after dosing kratom and feeling less effects than had I not doses kratom.

I get the feeling that most of the ignorance surrounding kratom gets dispelled pretty quickly on BL. It used to be worse, before more people were exposed to it and there was more misinformation. It definitely used to be worse.

One of the things I like about BL is that I don't really have to worry about being frank about my drug use on here. I mean, my name IRL is associated with my handle here, but it isn't something that really compromises my anonymity (plus I avoid doing illegal stuff, so I don't have much worry to reason; if someone does a background check on me, discovered my connection to BL and refused to hire me because of that, I honestly would rather be working for someone else).

Basically there is no miracle drugs; kratom is useful to a certain degree, but it also has a lot of limitations. The best thing it has going for it is that it isn't illegal and doesn't show up on drug tests. But there are way better (and more useful) substance out there. If I could get more therapeutic stuff like ketamine there is no way I'd be using kratom, but c'est la vie. One day, one day...