4-subbed Tryptamines: Acetoxy VS Hydroxy - Subjective general differences?

[Volsam]

I know the debate has been going on for years on this topic, but there's not much info available on the web - just some random speculations of people who didn't even personally try them it seems.

Well, I have extensively taken (in relation to the topic question):
*Psilocybe mushrooms (4-HO-DMT), 4-Aco-DMT and DMT
*4-Aco-MET, 4-HO-MET and MET
*4-Aco-DET
*4-HO-MiPT
*4-HO-DPT and DPT
*4-HO-EPT

I wish I could have tried more acetyl versions to draw better conclusion but I already strongly feel the difference between 4-Aco and 4-HO trypts in the way they present you with psychedelic experience.

I prefer to eat 4-sub tryptamines and discuss further dosages and effects for oral administration.

With acetyl version I feel slightly dissociated, my ego is "protected" and it "buzzes" throughout the experience, if it makes any sense - it's hard to make it melt and "kill" it, e.g. I can take up to 50mg of 4-Aco-MET and have a great time and feel safe and cosmic, when even 25mg of 4-HO-MET is enough to start ego-melting process for me (which is undeniably beautiful). They just feel different to me and more I take them, the more I notice the difference.

Same goes for 4-Aco-DMT and mushrooms. Acetyl versions make me feel dissociated and more "electric" compared to hydroxyl ones, that make the experience "Right In Your Face" and more earthy and "organic". Also acetyl versions all seem to start working faster than hydroxyl ones, about 20-50 mins onset for 4-Aco's compared to 40-160 mins for 4-HO's.


That being said, I prefer psilocybe mushrooms to 4-Aco-DMT and I prefer 4-HO-MET to 4-Aco-MET. I'm super curious to try 4-Aco-Mipt, 4-Aco-DPT and 4-HO-DET now. I have a special love for 4-Aco-DET but I didn't like both 4-HO-MiPT and 4-HO-DPT. I have a gut feeling I wouldn't like 4-HO-DET but I feel I could enjoy some "lightness" and somewhat dissociative buzz and protective ego state with both 4-Aco-MiPT and 4-Aco-DPT...8)


I'm curious what are your feelings and thoughts on acetoxy vs hydroxy 4-subbed tryptamines subjective experience?

 

[Crashing]

You sound super 'rooty' which is great, I hope to get there one day. Right now I really prefer the ACO structure to shrooms or 4-HO typts. I'm at the next octave on the crown typically, hoping to come down soon. Real soon. Soon enough anyway, trying to meet everybody halfway is tricky when you ride the deep grooves, ya feel me?

 

[Volsam]

You sound super 'rooty' which is great, I hope to get there one day. Right now I really prefer the ACO structure to shrooms or 4-HO typts. I'm at the next octave on the crown typically, hoping to come down soon. Real soon. Soon enough anyway, trying to meet everybody halfway is tricky when you ride the deep grooves, ya feel me?

I suppose I am 'rooty', although I never thought of it... 8)

Yes, Aco's undeniably have their own charm, particularly the ability of remaining a very conscious "observer" when you're all the way out there. I do feel a lot more analytical coldness from Aco's too, compared to HO's.

Trying to meet everybody halfway is tricky all the time for me, especially when riding deep groves!.. :D

Also, to mods: Could you correct the title of this post from "Acetyl VS Hydroxyl" to the correct one (Acetoxy) and better sounding "Acetoxy VS Hydroxy" - couldn't find the way to edit it myself. Thank you!

 

[Bagseed]

well my guess is that the acetyl esters have a different pharmacolgical action because they are less polar than the 4-HO variants, which might make them get into the brain more readily... same as with Heroin (diacetylmorphine) vs morphine. But why they seem to appear less potent than the 4-HOs to many people, no idea... allthough with heroin, this effect only seems significant when injected or maybe snorted. stomach acid might hydrolyse it all anyway.

The 4-PO esters (psilocybin) for example would never be able to do that because phosphate bears a negative charge and has to be cleaved before it can enter the brain.

This is just me guessing, but not completely uneducated

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Suprised you did not find the miprocin to be more favorable, it seems the bees knees to most. What about metocin is preferable? I found it more suited to recreation and the miprocin was a bit more serious, but the eroticism with miprocin has always been off the charts.....so you got a randy lusty psychedelic with a capacity to stun the soul in hyperspace....well...that's why we favored miprocin around here....man need to get more one day.

Re aco vs ho....

Agree 100% the aco are smoother and the ho more serious and pure. Chalk it down to ester warmth or some such nonesense.

 

[FractalGenie]

I have the 4-Aco-MiPT molecule Tattooed on me. It's a gem. I prefer it over Miprocin (and most other psychs) any day. On high doses it kinda blows everything out of the water for me. Sucks it's so rare.

 

[perpetualdawn]

I found 4-aco-dmt to be much more sedentary than magic mushrooms, but not sure if that's because of aco vs ho,or vs. po, or other trace stuff in mushrooms, or what. I think many other people have reported this difference as well. Do other ACOs tend to be more sedentary than their HO brethren?

 

[FractalGenie]

I found 4-aco-dmt to be much more sedentary than magic mushrooms, but not sure if that's because of aco vs ho,or vs. po, or other trace stuff in mushrooms, or what. I think many other people have reported this difference as well. Do other ACOs tend to be more sedentary than their HO brethren?

Ya, I think they do tend to be for sure. I believe they're active on their own though and they're also Pro-Drugs for their HO counterpart, personally.

 

[fractal fountain]

I have the 4-Aco-MiPT molecule Tattooed on me. It's a gem. I prefer it over Miprocin (and most other psychs) any day. On high doses it kinda blows everything out of the water for me. Sucks it's so rare.

HAH! I've actually excited it came back and was ressurreced. I was begging for its return for the longest time. and yes, absolutely agree that the acetoxy's are more smoother, while the hydroxy's are more 'sharp' but shorter acting. I tripped on 10mg 4-aco-mipt yesterday, not too visiual, but trying to work myself up so I'm comfortable with 25. that was my second trip off this batch, first was about 15mg and I kept sweating like crazy and was too hot. bblah. But mabye 25mg will blow me out of the water. I havve plenty of miprocin as well, and 15mg of 4-aco-dmt and 12mg of 4-ho-mipt was like psychedelic disneyland. I was grinning so widely feeling like I had mouse ears on. Eyes closed, could see funky wheel go round's in the distance.

I know people try to say thehy're very similar, but I've definitely noticed distinct differences between aco and hydroxy. particullar 4-ho-met, 4-ho-mipt, 4-aco-met, and 4-aco-mipt. I have 4-aco-dipt too but never opened or tried it. 4-ho-dipt was shadowy visuials with a very short duration. but not much sexual effect. the -mipt family definitely has the strongestt sexual component.

Anyway,I kind of see the MiPT molecule as a 'simplified' LSD. LSD has the diethyl part of the molecule sticking out from a nitrogen in a very similar way as the n, isopropyl. and then LSD has a methyl on one of the other nitrogens and that's similar to how MiPT and DMT/MET/MPT have that methyl in the same place. I just wantt to go higher with 4-aco-mipt and find the truly lysergic bright and vivid visuals. I just hate when my mood turns sour, like it did last night when I was thinking about how incredibly isolating my life is.

I've had 4-aco-mipt a bunch of other times before this, it's always fairly smoothh with minimal body discommfort.

Does my comparision of 4-xx-mipt with LSD's structure make sense to anyone else? I know there's similar comparisions (in a slightly diferent way) with 4-ho-mpt.

 

[Xorkoth]

I have the 4-Aco-MiPT molecule Tattooed on me. It's a gem. I prefer it over Miprocin (and most other psychs) any day. On high doses it kinda blows everything out of the water for me. Sucks it's so rare.

Haha, that's awesome. I absolutely love 4-HO-MiPT, one of my favorite psychedelics. I find that it hasn't gone into that deep ego dissolution tryptamine space for me and I've dosed it very high before (a bag wash once had me tripping SO hard on it), but it's so warm and loving and euphoric, and my mind is sharp and I feel insightful about anything I try to think about, and my flow of words is altered in a really fun and amusing way, and I want to talk and share. It's like an empathogenic tryptamine for me, sort of. I've wanted to try 4-AcO-MiPT too, to compare, but I haven't had the chance to yet.

I have had 4-HO and AcO-MET and -DET, and -DMT, but the only ones I've had enough tries with to really draw conclusions and 4-HO-DMT and 4-AcO-DMT. I have had mushrooms, 4-AcO-DMT and pure synthetic 4-HO-DMT all enough to see the differences. I think the difference is the most stark with the -DMTs of all the ones I've tried, for sure. As far as I can remember, 4-HO/AcO-MET/DET were quite similar to each other, but the acetoxys were smoother and less mentally intense, and a bit longer lasting. I could not say with any amount of confidence I could tell them part in a blind test though. I found 4-HO-DMT to be quite similar to mushrooms but also distinct, mushrooms feel like they have a more complex range of effects, 4-HO-DMT was like just straight to the point, shooting up to the peak like lightning and very readily entering that ego death loop. I've been there with mushrooms too for sure, but mushrooms also have this light, playful, in-the-world feeling to them. However, 4-AcO-DMT to me feels like oral smoked DMT for the first half, the same high-frequency buzzing, same type of visuals, and then in the second half it feels like the second half of mushrooms. I can only surmise that it crosses the BBB itself, but that it is also converted to 4-HO-DMT, but the rate at which it does so is determined by the amount of some enzyme or something. Plenty of people find it pretty indistinguishable, but for me I am fully confident I could tell them apart in a blind test easily, as soon as the effects really started to take off. They're quite different drugs, for me.

I've always been fascinated with this topic. I remember when I joined, people were generally saying they were the same. We even had just one big and dandy thread for each... it was the Big and Dandy 4-HO/4-AcO-DiPT thread, for example. At one point we (the mods) went through each and split out all the posts about each separate one into their own 2 threads, like we have it now. That was a bitch and a half. 8(

 

[perpetualdawn]

At one point we (the mods) went through each and split out all the posts about each separate one into their own 2 threads, like we have it now. That was a bitch and a half. 8(

OMF that must have been such a pain.

It's interesting that you describe 4-AcO-DMT being similar to N,N-DMT during the first half. When I did 4-AcO-DMT my instinct was that it was similar to N,N-DMT but with a different time-frame, or maybe like oral N,N-DMT (with an MAOI). But I've still not tried N,N-DMT in any form! It's must be a sign of how much I've geeked out reading about these drugs 8)

 

[Xorkoth]

Haha, yeah, I know what you mean, I have some strong impressions of DPT, and haven't tried it yet... same with some others I've read about endlessly for almost 2 decades.

I've smoked DMT a variety of times, I have yet to take it orally with an MAOI though. It's been one of those things I've always been intimidated by because of early impressions, along with DPT and 5-MeO-DMT. It's like I just have this inborn fear of those experiences, even though my reaction to psychedelics has evolved dramatically and I basically never experience difficult come-ups or bodyloads from anything anymore. I just got 2C-E again for the first time since 2007, and I'm nervous to try it again too because it was always so intense for me with a lot of bodyload and a very difficult come-up, but most likely I won't have that problem anymore.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

My recentish forays into 2ce show it has no more body load than any other psychedelic. You should enjoy it, 12mg to 14mg would be a great way to be reintroduced to it.

But off topic....agree with general consensus....that the indolol is stronger, more to the point. The acetoxy esters extend this feeling, extending the action and making it more gentle and rounded.

On a whole...ive always prefered the indolol....but the ace ester is always nice too.

 

[Volsam]

Personally excited to try 4-Aco-MiPT now!.. I wonder how close or far the actual experience will be from my theoretical image of how it would feel 8)

I didn't like that 4-HO-MiPT causes a strong adrenal response in me. I liked it at 10-15mg - fuzzy, glowing and warm, but every time I push it over 20mg towards 30-40s, where it gets interesting and very empathetic, I'd feel strong and quite alarming chest compression, bursts of adrenaline rush with somewhat violent response and feeling of a washing machine in my stomach. And what's more weird, after trying 45mg of it once, now even 10mg causes a lot of discomfort every time - I have no theory about it.

I think 4-Aco-MiPT counterpart will be spot on for me and I can finally enjoy a heavier dose and smoother action throughout :D

 

[Volsam]

I have tried 4-Aco-MiPT at 20mg recently and yes! I'm glad I got a good sized package as it immediately became one of my all-time favorites! :D

4-Aco-MiPT started a lot quicker and smoother than it's 4-HO counterpart and it developed into a very beautiful, energetic and highly visual state with no body load whatsoever! I would choose mipracetin over miprocin any day now and I highly recommend to try this one for those researchers who still haven't tried it! %)

On the same dose of 4-HO-MiPT my stomach would be pretty upset and I'd get strong chest compression. The trip is somewhat similar to 4-HO, but I liked 4-Aco a lot better because it was less hectic and a lot more manageable with pretty strong OEVs and CEVs.
But the best part is how strong physically, mentally and spiritually it made me feel, I felt very empowered, like there's no one and nothing that could have shaken me down from that state. I sat there meditating for couple of hours with the singing bowl and felt the perfection in every imperfection of my body, of my thought process, of the whole reality - it was really beautiful. I also felt strong sexual desire enhancement but unfortunately didn't have my GF nearby to test the erotic stuff, I bet it would be amazing! 8) The afterglow lasted two days after the trip and strangely my eyes became a lot lighter in color and brighter after the trip and for the whole afterglow duration


So, my preferences for 4-subbed trypts are:
4-PO-DMT (mushrooms) is better than 4-Aco-DMT
4-HO-MET is better than 4-Aco-MET
4-Aco-MiPT is better than 4-HO-MiPT

I still have yet to try 4-HO-DET and 4-Aco-DPT but it's the matter of time...%)

 

[Hodor]

Does my comparision of 4-xx-mipt with LSD's structure make sense to anyone else? I know there's similar comparisions (in a slightly diferent way) with 4-ho-mpt.

It is generally assumed that the nitrogen on the tryptamines corresponds to the 6-nitrogen on LSD (the one with the methyl group on it).

The function of LSD's diethyl amide moiety, OTOH, seems to be to basically get jammed into a specific pocket on the receptor, causing the receptor to change its conformation, thus essentially "trapping" the LSD inside (which would explain its insanely high potency).

(there's been a lot of research on this in recent years, including Nichols' experiments with the conformationally constrained analog LSZ, and more recently Wacker's crystallography studies using genetically modified 5ht2b receptors)