The thing is if it were 100% psychosomatic/psychological or whatever then whst causes the symptoms to begin with in the first place in an otherwise normal person? Thinking about the symptoms doesn't cause them and comes 'after the fact'.
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MDMA &
Empathogenic
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MDA stole my soul from me PLEASE HELP
- Thread starter Hellome
- Start date
The thing is if it were 100% psychosomatic/psychological or whatever then whst causes the symptoms to begin with in the first place in an otherwise normal person? Thinking about the symptoms doesn't cause them and comes 'after the fact'.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Never said it was 100% -- but your argument is fallacious:
Subconscious psychosomatism is a well known fact--research the literature.
The FACT that I can meditate, go into an ALPHA state, and cause my brain to produce endorphins through THOUGHT -- also falsifies your argument.
The overwhelming majority of "LTC" is nothing of the sort -- it is eithe;
a hyperadrenalized state due to HPA axis dysregulation,
a state of cognitive dissonance caused by an attack on the ego and worldview,
or the substance exposed an underlying mood disorder.
lLike I said -- this does not necessarily apply to persons who take heroic doses (more than 500 mg of MDMA in a few hours, or any amount of unknown substances)
There is a common FALSE MEME running around that your serotonin is used up, or low after taking MDMA. AFter a single dose the serotonin levels are back to normal in 24 hours, test animals had serotonin back to normal in 48 hours after injection of 10 mg/kg -- effectively 8-10 pills -- 8 points of powder
There is absolutely ZERO evidence that a single session of 1 or 2 pills even results in receptor downregulation (other than very acute short term)
MDMA users represent at most 10% of the population, and drug users as a group are extremely likely to have mood disorders (hence drug seeking behavior to self-medicate).
Cotcha Yankinov
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This has nothing to say on the matter of reversing LTC-like phenomena... Why are you talking of a switch from "normal" (whatever your normal is) to an alpha state when we are talking about trying to go from an LTC to normal... An example would be trying to mindfulness your way through a mental illness that made mindfulness incredibly difficult. That is great that you can do meditation when you're in a biological state that is conducive to meditation though
But I'm not saying that correcting aberrant activation/dysfunctional deactivation of the default mode network for example isn't a therapeutic target. Its a therapeutic target for ruminating depression as well, but it just doesn't make any sense to label these as psychosomatic disorders when there is a root biological cause, just as there is with MDD.We're not speaking of 5-HT depletion or receptor homeostasis issues, we're speaking of neuroplastic adaptations that are downstream of MDMA's effects, encompassing all effects, everything from the acute cortisol increase to a7 nicotinic partial agonism. In the majority of cases the time course of what I'm calling an LTC is ~ pills - horrible symptoms - googling - bluelight. NOT ~ pills - mild symptoms - googling - bluelight/studies - rumination - horrible symptoms.
Anyways to be honest I still don't know why you continually cite something that supports the notion that SRAs and direct agonists aren't completely cross tolerant but you seem to take it as meaning something else...
This isn't the first time you've disagreed about something strongly with several people but failed to produce sound logical reasoning or evidence.
Nambo
Bluelighter
I for one did not have depression or any form of 'mental illness' before this happened. So no that is not the case.
opiatekrzy
Bluelighter
Mental health issues is really a gray area. It is very common for people to suffer anxiety and depression without knowing they are consciously depressed, same deal
opiatekrzy
Bluelighter
Sorrt, stupid phone won't let me edit. As I said, mental health is a very complex thing. People suffer from depression and anxiety without consciously knowing it. Same goes for panic attacks, a lot of people get it from indirect environmental triggers. So therefore. Given your brain chemistry, you may suffer an imbalance without knowing it, meaning that this all indeed is psychogical indeed. I'm pretty sure mdma use, caused a deficiency or imbalance, which can cause depression, maybe even for a period time after. Give this time, it will fade. I'm almost positive this is all psychological
Cotcha Yankinov
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"I'm pretty sure mdma use, caused a deficiency or imbalance, which can cause depression, maybe even for a period time after. Give this time, it will fade. I'm almost positive this is all psychological"
There are two contradictory notions here. At one point you say MDMA can cause an imbalance or deficiency, and then you say you're positive it's all psychological. An MDMA induced imbalance would not be psychological.
It is certainly true that people get panic attacks from environmental triggers, but if it is something like hypertrophied amygdalae in the case of chronic PTSD that is facilitating the extreme response to an environmental stimuli that is perceived to be aversive then this wouldn't be considered psychological and extremely easy to reverse with a bit of mindfulness. It could take years of exposure therapy to only partially desensitize this response, and that would be reversing the biology and not just the "psychology" It is biology that facilitates the sensitization of the response to aversive stimuli.
There is really no usefulness in considering something like conditioned place aversion or conditioned place preference to be psychological phenomena when there are biological underpinnings.
But like I said, I'm all for mindfulness and not catastrophizing, and I believe 99.99% of people can recover from the severest of LTCs if they give it time and try different things.
There are two contradictory notions here. At one point you say MDMA can cause an imbalance or deficiency, and then you say you're positive it's all psychological. An MDMA induced imbalance would not be psychological.
It is certainly true that people get panic attacks from environmental triggers, but if it is something like hypertrophied amygdalae in the case of chronic PTSD that is facilitating the extreme response to an environmental stimuli that is perceived to be aversive then this wouldn't be considered psychological and extremely easy to reverse with a bit of mindfulness. It could take years of exposure therapy to only partially desensitize this response, and that would be reversing the biology and not just the "psychology" It is biology that facilitates the sensitization of the response to aversive stimuli.
There is really no usefulness in considering something like conditioned place aversion or conditioned place preference to be psychological phenomena when there are biological underpinnings.
But like I said, I'm all for mindfulness and not catastrophizing, and I believe 99.99% of people can recover from the severest of LTCs if they give it time and try different things.
opiatekrzy
Bluelighter
Ok ok. I guess what I mean is, what he is going through can be two things, an imbalance caused by the MDMA, which would cause his depression issues, however given How long ago it has been, i doubt it would have anything to do with that. Ok and secondly, whatever is going on NOW, this amount of time after, clearly has to be all psychological, which i feel will fade eventually . People say depression is clearly all psychological, which I don't understand, how is it all psychological if there is a legit chemical imbalance? And is a chemical imbalance in the brain considered , still psychological? I mean i am definetly not a doctor, nor do i have a doctorette degree in bluelight pharmacology, but it just seems all of what is going on with the OP is clearly mental. This is all I'm trying to say, that this too shall pass, over time. The mind is such a powerful thing.
Cotcha Yankinov
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First off let me apologize if I seem irked, the shugenja suggesting a tryptophan deficient diet thing just set me off 0.0
Anyways, a psychologist once told an LTC sufferer "well, all drugs are completely out of your system by 3 weeks so whatever effects you're experiencing now are psychological" (almost verbatim), but that attitude completely ignores the natural sciences perspective, that is that it's the biology that gives rise to psychology.
"however given How long ago it has been, i doubt it would have anything to do with that. Ok and secondly, whatever is going on NOW, this amount of time after, clearly has to be all psychological, which i feel will fade eventually . People say depression is clearly all psychological, which I don't understand, how is it all psychological if there is a legit chemical imbalance?"
If someone has severe PTSD after a traumatic incident then it doesn't matter if it's been a long long time - clearly the biological state resulting from an acute incident can be somewhat persistent: Even learning something or reading a book changes the brain persistently. The brain is fundamentally about learning, and learning stems from biological changes.
Addictive drug users show vastly increased cravings and sensitivity to visual cues (like drug paraphernalia imagery) for years and years after abstinence. In the same sense that some people may never forget how to ride a bike, it is very hard to unlearn heroin use. But there are therapies like ibogaine that can significantly decrease the potency of visual cues, and the effects of ibogaine have been linked to non-psychedelic mechanisms of ibogaine (and they are developing drugs that have that same mechanism of action that show great efficacy for addiction but without the psychedelic effects). I hope you see my point.
In the end psychology is a crappy word. I think people are using it to imply mental processes that are easily malleable and changeable. That's certainly not the case with major depressive disorder biology, meaning that MDD is not a psychological disease with that definition of psychological.
The biology that gives rise to LTCs can certainly either revert back to normal or other pieces of the brain that were not originally involved in causing the LTC may compensate and result in resolution of symptoms, but it's not going to happen extremely fast, it's probably going to take some time.
Anyways, a psychologist once told an LTC sufferer "well, all drugs are completely out of your system by 3 weeks so whatever effects you're experiencing now are psychological" (almost verbatim), but that attitude completely ignores the natural sciences perspective, that is that it's the biology that gives rise to psychology.
"however given How long ago it has been, i doubt it would have anything to do with that. Ok and secondly, whatever is going on NOW, this amount of time after, clearly has to be all psychological, which i feel will fade eventually . People say depression is clearly all psychological, which I don't understand, how is it all psychological if there is a legit chemical imbalance?"
If someone has severe PTSD after a traumatic incident then it doesn't matter if it's been a long long time - clearly the biological state resulting from an acute incident can be somewhat persistent: Even learning something or reading a book changes the brain persistently. The brain is fundamentally about learning, and learning stems from biological changes.
Addictive drug users show vastly increased cravings and sensitivity to visual cues (like drug paraphernalia imagery) for years and years after abstinence. In the same sense that some people may never forget how to ride a bike, it is very hard to unlearn heroin use. But there are therapies like ibogaine that can significantly decrease the potency of visual cues, and the effects of ibogaine have been linked to non-psychedelic mechanisms of ibogaine (and they are developing drugs that have that same mechanism of action that show great efficacy for addiction but without the psychedelic effects). I hope you see my point.
In the end psychology is a crappy word. I think people are using it to imply mental processes that are easily malleable and changeable. That's certainly not the case with major depressive disorder biology, meaning that MDD is not a psychological disease with that definition of psychological.
The biology that gives rise to LTCs can certainly either revert back to normal or other pieces of the brain that were not originally involved in causing the LTC may compensate and result in resolution of symptoms, but it's not going to happen extremely fast, it's probably going to take some time.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Why? The only ways to upregulate serotonin receptors identified in the literature are:
1. A tryptophan deficient diet
2. Taking LARGE -- yes LARGE doses of bacopa monnieri
Cotcha Yankinov
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I see you are horribly unfamiliar with the antidepressant literature. SSRIs sensitize and upregulate 5-HT1A heteroreceptors which have been shown to be critical for antidepressant response while they downregulate and desensitize 5-HT1A autoreceptors.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2532423/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12128004
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19016488
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17313964/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9822768
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9564441
But if you can even be bothered to actually look at the in vivo literature on tryptophan depletion before you recommended it to the OP who is in a time of crisis that would be great, rather than assume that receptor upregulation is going to be good and ignore the effects that vulnerable populations could endure with tryptophan depletion. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2585285/ -
"The technique of acute tryptophan depletion (ATD) has been employed in a variety of studies in order to understand the role of serotonin (5-HT) in various cognitive functions and neuropsychiatric disorders. ATD has been shown to induce a transient return of symptoms in patients recovered from depression, both in unmedicated patients and those stabilised on selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (e.g. Delgado et al. 1990; Leyton et al. 1997; Neumeister et al. 2004)."
"Tasks with an emotional or reward-related component are also affected by ATD; previous studies have reported reduced sensitivity to reward and a negative emotional bias in healthy volunteers following ATD (Klaassen et al. 2002; Murphy et al. 2002; Rogers et al. 2003; Rubinsztein et al. 2001)."
"It is clear that there is large individual variation in response to ATD (Booij et al. 2003), which may be related to genetic factors (Crean et al. 2002; LeMarquand et al. 1999; Neumeister et al. 2002; Quintin et al. 2001). For example, one study to date has reported that women homozygous for the s allele at the 5-HT transporter linked polymorphic region (5-HTTLPR) were vulnerable to mood change following ATD, while those homozygous for the l allele did not show mood change (Neumeister et al. 2002)."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631647/ - "Ecstasy users carrying the s allele, but not comparison subjects carrying the s allele, showed abnormal emotional processing. On the basis of a comparison with acute tryptophan depletion, the authors hypothesize that chronic Ecstasy use may cause long-term changes to the serotonin system, and that Ecstasy users carrying the s allele may be at particular risk for emotional dysfunction."
Familiarize yourself with the literature before recommending nonsense like tryptophan depletion to someone in OP's position. If you were a doctor I would wish to see you banned from practicing medicine.
Hi everyone, thanks so much for your feedback regarding my situation. Unfortunately my situation is more related to the state of my psyche and not just brain activity (though clearly they're intimately related, but this is a little more unusual). Please take a moment to watch this video I made, read the description, and share with friends. I'm desperate to get my life back. Thanks so much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSOVjS6Mca8
TheComedownGuide
Greenlighter
I highly suggest you pick up some New Mood by Onnit. It's a blend of 5HTP, Tryptophan and other relaxing herbs, and has helped me out immensely.
Cotcha Yankinov
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Time is still incredibly important and under appreciated when it comes to recovering from all sorts of things, and these depersonalization type phenomena especially take time to recover from.
Excuse all the biological vs. psychological talk, at the end of the day I just don't want people to feel guilty or feel like these things are their fault, that they are somehow responsible. I sincerely believe and have observed that people recover from these phenomena in time, but for many it's just not a matter of weeks. Sometimes progress on some things is so slow that you can't really tell you're making progress, or the time course of the phenomena is such that things get worse before they get better.
Mindfulness, cardio if it's not too stressful, and doing whatever you can to get some sleep (I have a feeling sleep deprivation is playing a fair role here) will speed up recovery. And of course medications shouldn't be off the table to talk about with psychiatrists as well, although many people are strongly anti-medication, even though they recommend many herbs and homeopathic remedies...
Excuse all the biological vs. psychological talk, at the end of the day I just don't want people to feel guilty or feel like these things are their fault, that they are somehow responsible. I sincerely believe and have observed that people recover from these phenomena in time, but for many it's just not a matter of weeks. Sometimes progress on some things is so slow that you can't really tell you're making progress, or the time course of the phenomena is such that things get worse before they get better.
Mindfulness, cardio if it's not too stressful, and doing whatever you can to get some sleep (I have a feeling sleep deprivation is playing a fair role here) will speed up recovery. And of course medications shouldn't be off the table to talk about with psychiatrists as well, although many people are strongly anti-medication, even though they recommend many herbs and homeopathic remedies...
dan88
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Is there some sort of media campaign in the US about mdma causing long term comedowns. I know nobody in the UK who has suffered this, and nor have I ever read about it except on this board. Seems like bullshit to me, I cannot see one MDA pill causing this
Cotcha Yankinov
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I think the drug induced depersonalization (and HPPD) type phenomena are fairly rare but it's easy to hear the vocal minority on an esoteric website forum... Just because you haven't heard of such things in real life doesn't mean it's not real, just rare.
But people from all over have had LTCs and depersonalization from all sorts of drugs, even cannabis. There is also persistent altered states of consciousness (psychosis) from psychdelics, once again something you don't really hear about but it does indeed happen.
But people from all over have had LTCs and depersonalization from all sorts of drugs, even cannabis. There is also persistent altered states of consciousness (psychosis) from psychdelics, once again something you don't really hear about but it does indeed happen.
Nambo
Bluelighter
It happened to me as well so you are wrong
Nambo
Bluelighter
That was a very brave and heartfelt search for hope from Hellome. I pray that there is an answer.
I read the attached article and it totally resonates with me and I would imagine this is exactly what Hellome is talking about. In their case it appears to be caused by antidepressants but the common trend is clear is that for a fraction of us the addition of some external substance has altered the way our neurotransmitters interconnect to such an extent that we lose our sense of self / our identity / 'ego death' / it' results in a constant nothingness. Is this depresonalisation?, anhedonia? Call it what you will. Personally I call it a living death
http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Felt-As-Though-Ive-Lost-My-Soul/1539121
I read the attached article and it totally resonates with me and I would imagine this is exactly what Hellome is talking about. In their case it appears to be caused by antidepressants but the common trend is clear is that for a fraction of us the addition of some external substance has altered the way our neurotransmitters interconnect to such an extent that we lose our sense of self / our identity / 'ego death' / it' results in a constant nothingness. Is this depresonalisation?, anhedonia? Call it what you will. Personally I call it a living death
http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Felt-As-Though-Ive-Lost-My-Soul/1539121
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Thank you Nando. I was going to send you the video actually. I will keep searching for an answer for us, I promise... I included the link you shared in the description of the video. I'm hoping that it will gain some views and maybe one person who's been through this and gotten out can share with us their process.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
This has nothing to say on the matter of reversing LTC-like phenomena... Why are you talking of a switch from "normal" (whatever your normal is) to an alpha state when we are talking about trying to go from an LTC to normal... An example would be trying to mindfulness your way through a mental illness that made mindfulness incredibly difficult. That is great that you can do meditation when you're in a biological state that is conducive to meditation though
We're not speaking of 5-HT depletion or receptor homeostasis issues, we're speaking of neuroplastic adaptations that are downstream of MDMA's effects, encompassing all effects, everything from the acute cortisol increase to a7 nicotinic partial agonism. In the majority of cases the time course of what I'm calling an LTC is ~ pills - horrible symptoms - googling - bluelight. NOT ~ pills - mild symptoms - googling - bluelight/studies - rumination - horrible symptoms.
Anyways to be honest I still don't know why you continually cite something that supports the notion that SRAs and direct agonists aren't completely cross tolerant but you seem to take it as meaning something else...
This isn't the first time you've disagreed about something strongly with several people but failed to produce sound logical reasoning or evidence.
1. You have to prove a root biological cause that did not preceed the substance use - [snicker] fat chance of that
2. You argue neuroplastic adaptations -- and I call BULLSHIT on a BULLHORN You have failed to provide 1 shred of scientific evidence that any neuroplastic adaptation occurs after a single recreational dose of MDMA. If you have such a study == please provide it. I would love to see how they show PROOF of neuroplastic adaptation after 1 use.
3. Cortisol is known to induce HPA dysregulation, and other endocrine dysregulation
What is more likely? Any one of a number of endocrine based hormonal/corticosteroid dysregulation known to be caused by acute stress - like that experienced during stimulant use/abuse all of which are known to cause marked mood disorders ?
Psychosomatically Induced mood disorders - also known to be caused by acute stress
Yes - you can THINK yourself into depression - depersonalization -derealization - anhedonia
OR-
Some magical UNPROVEN neuroplastic adaptation?
OCCAM SAYS WHAT?