Day #8 - Still Slight Withdrawal Symptoms?

[SpongeCake]

Long story short, I decided to taper myself down as low as I could from my Dilaudid and Vicoprofen scripts and then use Kratom + CalmSupport (and a couple of other natural vitamins) to minimize withdrawals. In my particular case, I've basically had no withdrawals at all. At least nothing that wasn't easy to handle. But here's where I'm a bit confused and was wondering if anyone had any advice.

** I realize it differs from person to person. It also depends on what drugs you were on, how much of that drug you usually took, and how long you were on the drug(s). **

Day #1: 2 CalmSupport vitamin capsules, as well as a Men's One-a-Day vitamin. 1 level tablespoon of red vein Kratom mixed with applesauce at roughly 6:30am, 1:30pm (along with another CalmSupport capsule), and 8:30pm. As well as some extra natural vitamins for night (5-HTP, and melatonin basically).

Day #2: Exactly the same.

Day #3: Exactly the same.

Day #4: All vitamins and dosages stayed the same. Except I lowered my Kratom dosages from 1 level tablespoon to 1 level teaspoon. Still at the same 3 times a day.

Day #5: All vitamins and dosages stayed the same, except I went from 1 level teaspoon 3x per day, to only 2x per day (always in the morning before work at ~6:30am, but then only once more after work ~6:00pm or so)

Day #6: All vitamins and dosages stayed the same, but this time I just used 1 level 1/2 tablespoon around lunch time.

Day #7: All vitamin dosages and times are the same, but no Kratom use what-so-ever.

And here I find myself on Day #8. Still no Kratom use... But when I "drastically" lowered my Kratom dosage on Day #4, I started having terrible nights of sleep. In fact - I haven't slept more than 3 or maybe 4 hours each night since I lowered my Kratom dosage on Day #4. But whats keeping me up are 2 things; that odd anxiety feeling that seems to start in your chest and kind of radiate out (I've never had anxiety before, not really, so that's the best way I can describe it) and full-body RLS. Now don't get me wrong, I've had an accidental full-blown body ache/RLS night and the ones I'm having now are not even 1/10 as bad as those are. In fact, they're not even painful... just annoying! I'll lay still and just star to get comfy but after about 45-60 seconds, I have that urge to flex/twitch my muscles for temporary relief. I'll roll on a different side, get comfy, and then another minute or so later that same RLS type of flex/twitching sensation comes back. And that's what keeping me from falling asleep and getting some actual rest! I suppose my real question is this: I very very very easily got through the major parts of the withdrawal symptoms - and in fact they were basically non-existent... but I've got to find something to control these night time RLS/anxiety feelings so I can actually get some damn sleep. Any suggestions?

EDIT #1: I eat fairly healthy. In fact, I'm on a diet as we speak - so I'm eating as much organic, whole grain/wheat, fresh produce and lean meats as I can (chicken, turkey, the occasional lean cut of red meat like a tenderloin, etc). I also understand that exercising is very helpful... but lets face it, I'm lazy. I won't go in to what I do as a career but I occasionally use my phone's pedometer and it's not unlikely for me to get 5,000-8,000 steps a day on average (I realize that's nothing to brag about but I'm just saying that I DO move around haha).

EDIT #2: Benzos don't help. Well, not the RLS anyway. So please don't suggest that. I have a monthly script for 1mg Xanax for helping me get to (and stay) asleep. And I'll take a half of one in the middle of the day if I feel irritated with that anxiety feeling but even if I take a whole one right at night all I do is wake up an hour later with the RLS stuff. And at that point it's almost worse because I have that exhausted, zonked-out, Xanax haze but the full body RLS still wont let me lay still long enough to drift back off to sleep. Pretty ironic, actually.

 

[keeping]

i used to use diazepam to help deal with the RLS/muscle spasms and co-morbid insomnia but that's playing with fire.

 

[SpongeCake]

i used to use diazepam to help deal with the RLS/muscle spasms and co-morbid insomnia but that's playing with fire.

Yeah, I figured someone would point that out. Not that it's not an appreicated idea! Just don't like the idea of trading one vice for another - especially this far in to it. Worst comes to worst I'll just endure the irritatingly sleepless nights and the exhausted "day after" for another several day and hope it ends. But if you or anyone else ha any suggestions I'd be up to them.

P.S. - What about something like a Vitamin Shoppe/Walmart, over the counter, RLS medication? They're out there... just never tried them. Honestly I just figured they'd be a waste of money considering this type of situation isn't just your run-of-the-mill RLS symptom... but rather an opiate withdrawal based thing. But it couldn't hurt I suppose. Any suggestions about any of them?

 

[keeping]

in the UK we don't have those stores, so i don't know how much help i can be here but i've heard OTC diarrhea meds like loperamide can be really helpful, but i've never used them..

 

[aplumgirl]

I really feel for your struggles. Have you tried a mild muscle relaxant. I remember RLS when I had WD in 2014, what a true nightmare. Glad everything else went so smoothly! Good luck!

 

[Prescottdave]

Low dose clonidine and gabapentin. Your sleep cycle may take a number of weeks or even months to balance out. Calcium magnesium which is also in chamomile tea can work wonders for leg and muscle pain. Try getting up and taking a hot bath. Then eat some food and take a cal mag supplement. Then try and lay back down. If that does not work some mild stretching can also help. Cannabis helps ease my RLS during WD much more effectively then clonidine.

Wow you have made it through the major stages of WD and if you stick with it I bet you will get some proper sleep in a week or two.

Potassium also found in bananas as far as I know is good at easing muscle and leg pain related to RLS.

 

[SpongeCake]

in the UK we don't have those stores, so i don't know how much help i can be here but i've heard OTC diarrhea meds like loperamide can be really helpful, but i've never used them..

Diarrhea meds for RLS? Can't say I've ever heard of that suggestion - but it's appreciated either way!

I really feel for your struggles. Have you tried a mild muscle relaxant. I remember RLS when I had WD in 2014, what a true nightmare. Glad everything else went so smoothly! Good luck!

Coincidentally, yes, I have. Long story short I work at a medical center (family doctors, internal medicine, other certain specialists, etc.) so we actually have a plethora of sample meds that reps bring in to all of our buildings. Of course, these medicines are by prescription only but obviously aren't major medications either - such as Flexiril for example. Anyway, at the beginning of this process last week I took a handful of sample packets of a certain muscle relaxer named Lorzone (chlorzoxazone). It is indeed a muscle relaxer by all intents & purposes, but it's not a "hardcore" muscle relaxer like Flexiril (which is a cyclobenzaprine). It's like comparing apples to oranges - they're both "fruit" but they are definitely not the same (okay, that may have been a terrible comparison... but it is 3:50am and I've been up for hours because of this damn RLS, so my brain is extremely fuzzy 8( ). They're the 750mg tablets - that can be split in half or even thirds because of the way they're scored - but they don't seem to help very much. If I take whole one, they make me very drowsy, which helps put me to sleep... but then I'm awake in an hour with more symptoms. So they kind of work but they kind of don't.

Low dose clonidine and gabapentin. Your sleep cycle may take a number of weeks or even months to balance out. Calcium magnesium which is also in chamomile tea can work wonders for leg and muscle pain. Try getting up and taking a hot bath. Then eat some food and take a cal mag supplement. Then try and lay back down. If that does not work some mild stretching can also help. Cannabis helps ease my RLS during WD much more effectively then clonidine.

Wow you have made it through the major stages of WD and if you stick with it I bet you will get some proper sleep in a week or two.

Potassium also found in bananas as far as I know is good at easing muscle and leg pain related to RLS.

• I actually have some Clonidine. Even though I'm only 28 years old, I have hypertension (runs in the family ) and coincidentally my primary doctor, who's also my Cardiologist, started me on a (30) 0.1mg script about 2 months ago to take every day along with my regular blood pressure medication. I can attest to the Clonidine helping tremendously with the sweats during this process - especially the first few days - but they don't seem to do anything for these RLS/anxiety symptoms.
• Well, as part of my vitamin regimen that I started a few days before even coming off the opiates (to help my body and mind start getting used to everything) I take a Calcium + D3 pill twice a day. I realize that's not exactly the same - since it doesn't have any magnesium in it - but I'd be willing to try that out if the magnesium really works.
• A hot shower/bath and stretching seems to be the only thing that gives me "instant" relief. Last night (or I guess I should say yesterday morning lol) I took a really hot shower about 4:30am and after I got out I dried off and got in bed as quickly as I could and it really made my body feel good and relaxed. Fell right asleep. Unfortunately I was awake about an hour later and the relaxation had subsided. But at that point it was nearly 6:00am so I went ahead and got up and ready for work as there was no point rolling around until my alarm went off .
• Like I mentioned before, I am taking CalmSupport and a few other vitamins (and have been even before I stopped the opiates so my body could start getting used to them all) and yes one of those is Potassium. They're 99mg. I usually don't take more than 2 or 3 a day as too much blood Potassium levels could cause Hyperkalemia. And although I'm not sure if my particular blood pressure meds fall in this category, but some blood pressure meds can boost Potassium blood levels. Not to mention I eat pretty healthy foods that have Potassium in them as well. Better safe than sorry !
• Cannabis... ehhh... not my thing. Haven't smoked it in years, was never much of a fan - I always prefered alcohol haha.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Keep 'em coming! They're very much appreciated, and the good vibes & well wishes help a lot, too.

 

[Prescottdave]

The OTC diarrhea med loperamide is a mild opiate that hardly crosses the BBB. Doses of 12-30 mg can remove almost 70% of the physical WD for a small habit of say 10-20 mg of oxy. Out of all the suggestions the lope would likely make you feel the most relief if taken in the correct dose. I notice relief from doses as small as 6 mg. The thing is you risk setting off a pattern in your brain that could possible increase cravings if using the immodium/lope.

I think the calm support has magnesium in it. It's really important to be taking calcium combined with magnesium. These two have slight NMDA activity which you can look up on your own in regards to WD relief. Epsom salts are really high in magnesium. Take a bath with epsom salt and the magnesium is absorbed into the muscles. This will definitely provide some safe and immediate relief. Epsom salt can be obtained at most pharmacies and shopping centers.

 

[crzydiamond]

First off, you have to realize that your detox was done by tapering with a mu agonist (Kratom). I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that at all--quite the opposite in fact, as doing such a taper allowed you to avoid hardcore cold turkey symptoms. I'm merely pointing this out to put what I'm going to say in context.

You can't really go by a "cold turkey" average time of withdrawal when using a mu agonist such as Kratom, codeine, hydrocodone, etc as a taper. Your symptoms are going to be prolonged. So even though you're thinking you're on "day 8", relatively speaking (to cold turkey) you're not. So you can't compare. (You're doing great by the way; don't take that as a put down. It's not. I'm speaking analytically)

When I did cold turkey withdrawal (I'm going to use when I first started snorting dope as that wd will be more comparable) the first time, I was in jail. So no comfort meds at all. Which gives a pretty accurate timeline. I'm not going into every symptom. But the RLS you speak of --and the accompanying inability to sleep--was bad the first week or so. I can remember pacing up and down trying to get the muscles to stop twitching and annoying me...then laying down...lucky at first to get 15-20 min of sleep the first days (and i would wake hoping some time had passed only to discover it was 15 min ...) but after a few days i would get a little more and more

For me the sleeping through the night is always always always the last of the hurdles, and once I hit that it's the end of physical symptoms. It normally takes me about 10 days to 2 weeks to return to a normal sleep. Normal being at least 7-8 hours without waking up restless and unable to fall back asleep


So being you're only off the Kratom a few days, that probably has you back a little farther than the 8 days, but you're also through the worst of the physical wd
I'd say honestly, in another week you should be just about back to normal. Try not to rely too much on any product, as the whole idea of getting clean is to let your body stabilize without needing something.

That said, the melatonin is fine, that's what your body produces anyway. It's excellent at helping one fall asleep without the chemicals.
For another OTC boost, the one detox/rehab I was in used to give Benadryl (diphenhydramine)although that really dries you out so drink a lot of water if you go that route.

Stay away from the trazodone and such...unless you plan on only using for a week or less...

Truthfully, best thing to do is wear yourself out. Get out and walk, play, whatever you're into. Heck, go get into Pokemon Go. The more naturally physically exhausted you are, the better you'll sleep.

Oh--an old folk remedy for RLS some people swear by--out a bar of soap at the part your feet are, under your bottom sheet. Sounds dumb? Sure. But I have come across that remedy time and again, even in a pharmacist column.

Massage of the thighs helps.

Have you tried Lyrica? May help with the nerve signals going to brain.

And if the hot shower helped ...do that, then maybe use a heating pad when you go to bed to sustain that warmth ?



Mostly--keep telling yourself, it's another week. After everything you've been through, what's one more week?!


And, congrats to you on your journey thus far!

 

[SpongeCake]

First off, you have to realize that your detox was done by tapering with a mu agonist (Kratom). I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that at all--quite the opposite in fact, as doing such a taper allowed you to avoid hardcore cold turkey symptoms. I'm merely pointing this out to put what I'm going to say in context.

You can't really go by a "cold turkey" average time of withdrawal when using a mu agonist such as Kratom, codeine, hydrocodone, etc as a taper. Your symptoms are going to be prolonged. So even though you're thinking you're on "day 8", relatively speaking (to cold turkey) you're not. So you can't compare. (You're doing great by the way; don't take that as a put down. It's not. I'm speaking analytically)

When I did cold turkey withdrawal (I'm going to use when I first started snorting dope as that wd will be more comparable) the first time, I was in jail. So no comfort meds at all. Which gives a pretty accurate timeline. I'm not going into every symptom. But the RLS you speak of --and the accompanying inability to sleep--was bad the first week or so. I can remember pacing up and down trying to get the muscles to stop twitching and annoying me...then laying down...lucky at first to get 15-20 min of sleep the first days (and i would wake hoping some time had passed only to discover it was 15 min ...) but after a few days i would get a little more and more

For me the sleeping through the night is always always always the last of the hurdles, and once I hit that it's the end of physical symptoms. It normally takes me about 10 days to 2 weeks to return to a normal sleep. Normal being at least 7-8 hours without waking up restless and unable to fall back asleep


So being you're only off the Kratom a few days, that probably has you back a little farther than the 8 days, but you're also through the worst of the physical wd
I'd say honestly, in another week you should be just about back to normal. Try not to rely too much on any product, as the whole idea of getting clean is to let your body stabilize without needing something.

That said, the melatonin is fine, that's what your body produces anyway. It's excellent at helping one fall asleep without the chemicals.
For another OTC boost, the one detox/rehab I was in used to give Benadryl (diphenhydramine)although that really dries you out so drink a lot of water if you go that route.

Stay away from the trazodone and such...unless you plan on only using for a week or less...

Truthfully, best thing to do is wear yourself out. Get out and walk, play, whatever you're into. Heck, go get into Pokemon Go. The more naturally physically exhausted you are, the better you'll sleep.

Oh--an old folk remedy for RLS some people swear by--out a bar of soap at the part your feet are, under your bottom sheet. Sounds dumb? Sure. But I have come across that remedy time and again, even in a pharmacist column.

Massage of the thighs helps.

Have you tried Lyrica? May help with the nerve signals going to brain.

And if the hot shower helped ...do that, then maybe use a heating pad when you go to bed to sustain that warmth ?



Mostly--keep telling yourself, it's another week. After everything you've been through, what's one more week?!


And, congrats to you on your journey thus far!

I 100% agree with everything you've said. As far as it not really being "Day #8". I knew good and well that the Kratom use was only going to get me through my harshest of the physical withdrawals - which is actually the main reason I started lowering it's dosage after the first few days and then got off it completely a few days ago. I didn't want to trade one vice for another, and I knew prolonged use of Kratom would just "get me addicted" to it. I still gotta say, though, it really did make a difference by using it the first handful of days to get through the worst symptoms (I've had to stop cold turkey before by accidentally running out of my medication a couple days early - way before I had ever heard of Kratom - and that was 2 days of 24/7 misery).

I'm definitely going to get some Calcium + Magnesium, as well as some Epsom salt. Nice long bath just before I lay down will at the very least knock me out for as long as my body will let me sleep. I don't plan to continue all of the vitamins for very long (as you also suggested); I started taking them several days before I stopped the pills and my overall plan was to take them for about 2 weeks and then stop taking all the different vitamins all together. My thought process was that by taking all these vitamins, they would be a catalyst to help my brain start producing everything normally again instead of it used to dumping unnatural amounts in to my system via the opiates. But I also agree my system needs to eventually get back to it's own rhythm without so many different vitamins.

And no I have not tried Lyrica. As odd as it sounds (considering my situation) I really don't like taking prescription pills to help with certain issues, because... *drum roll*... I don't want to become dependent on them . Of course the pain pills were a different story as I honestly do have chronic shoulder pain and that's how this dependency started but I think you see my point. Besides Kratom - which is technically natural - I don't want to use any other addictive medications to help any symptoms as that could accidentally start down another road of dependency. That's why I'm just wanting to stick to non-habit forming, over the counter medications.

 

[crzydiamond]

Yes I think you did it the right way as far as using another substance to taper. That's why I was careful not to come off like (oh you're not on day 8 blah blah blah )with any sort of patronizing tone

I honestly think you have a great outlook and the proper type of mindset for success.


As a matter of encouragement--I can say even on the absolute worst cold turkey detox I ever did (methadone), I was able to sleep normally within 3 -4 weeks. And methadone is far more drawn out. On a regular mu agonist I was always back to normal non RLS sleep within the first 2 weeks.


I hope some of the suggestions help, I used to get RLS so bad I would punch my legs for relief. And I found out the hard way in detox that flexeril gives me restless legs when I'm detoxing. (?) weird I know.


Anyway keep following the path you're on---you're doing great