What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[G_Chem]

^^^You said that well, I tried typing out something but couldn?t find the right words. We must all realize that our view of overall drug trends shouldn?t be based just on current connections. I?m one of those people that has rarely, if ever, come across this lackluster product. I still believe others deal with this problem.

I thought back on it and I think there?s been two times. Back in 2011 or so, still in the aftermath of the drought, I bought a bag of dark brown chunks that didn?t resemble crystals in the slightest. This stuff seemed super mellow and I remember this being the batch that I swore I?d never buy really impure looking MDXX again.

Next time wasn?t until 2015 when I bought a purple Calvin Klein at a festival as kind of a novelty. Where I?m at, Dutch product is an expensive import and so I bought it at an exorbitant amount of money. Looking around they were supposed to be decent dosages, and tested fine.

Me being me, I wound up never eating it as ecstasy tends to sketch me out when I can much more easily, cheaply, and safely weigh out my own. I gave it to a kid at a show and he came back later that night to tell me the pill was garbage.

Now with good MDMA, you might have a less that kickass roll but it?s exceedingly rare to just not feel much of anything on higher doses.

Let?s all just demand chemists start producing pure Mescaline. I can only imagine the new scene that would emerge in the wake.

-GC

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Even if you did find a way to get one, you'd need to find someone who knows how to use it properly AND be able to look for what we're looking for. I've had my stuff tested with an FTIR spectrometer and that shit was complicated, its not like it spits out a list of everything it finds, you have to interpret the results and to my understanding its not always conclusive

Shame, but makes sense.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Interesting piece of research talking about misclassification of MDMA like substances: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

and this: https://academic.oup.com/chromsci/article-pdf/42/9/464/845872/42-9-464.pdf

 

[Hilopsilo]

Interesting piece of research talking about misclassification of MDMA like substances: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

and this: https://academic.oup.com/chromsci/article-pdf/42/9/464/845872/42-9-464.pdf

holy shit

i don't think its a farfetched possibility that certain synthesis techniques may inadvertently produce a compound(s) mentioned in that paper. Hard to know if even the producers are aware of it, might be fooling them just the same.

They can be identified, but from skimming through that it seems that the point is that its very difficult, you have to know what you're looking for, have good reference material and a bunch more specific testing procedures/equipment.

I know glub has pointed this out before, but damn this is some decently extensive research. Some juicy bits:

"While the mass spectrum is often considered a specific “fingerprint” for an individual compound, other substances can produce very similar or almost identical mass spectra."

"The direct and indirect regioisomers of MDMA and also isobaric substances related to MDMA were synthesized and compared to MDMA by using gas chromatographic and spectrometric techniques. The spectrometric studies of the direct regioisomers and v isobaric substances of MDMA indicated that they can not be easily differentiated by mass spectrometry or ultraviolet (UV) spectrophotometry."

 

[LucidSDreamr]

haven't been on this sub formum in like 6 months, i can see that this conversation is still going in circles from where it was like 40 pages ago.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Is there any scope for differentiating between types of content by boiling point? And is this doable in any sense at home?

 

[G_Chem]

@LucidSDreamer - Yes and no.. I?d say we have a better clue about what to look for. We have multiple analysis done, that have showed some interesting things.

The problem is with each new analysis we seem to be only further confused of the matter.

I?d say we?ve made progress. Whether we can make anymore beyond this point is debatable.. We need someone else beyond Glubra to be able to closely analyze some product, it?s obvious the labs can?t give ya much more than very common impurities.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

I apologize if someone else already posted this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29248945

 

[Hilopsilo]

I apologize if someone else already posted this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29248945

I think it has, but either way, I think its safe to say at this point its not the stereoisomers. We know enough about them in terms of effects, difficulty in creating a non-racemic product, etc. I really think we can cross that one out.

But we don't know jack shit about the effects of regioisomers and isobaries (are these synonymous with structural and positional isomers?) or a lot about how they'd be made. As in, we know it would be quite difficult to accidentally create purely R or S isomer MDMA even without knowing exact contemporary production techniques, but not necessarily the other "types of isomers" (sorry, not a chemist here, not sure if thats how you'd call it). Maybe it is just as convoluted and unlikely to inadvertently create these compounds, but we just don't know and there is no information to say one way or the other.

What is certainly useful is that there is some documentation of the differences in effects between R and S isomer MDMA, so I think it wouldn't be farfetched to hypothesize that these other "types of isomers" could indeed have varying effects.

I really think we're onto something with the whole substances identical molar mass theory. I'm kinda disappointed none of the testing services ever got back to me about their specific testing processes, if we knew those, we could put it past someone who knows their shit to determine if those techniques would detect the other kinds of isomers.

I think it would be valuable if we could collaboratively write up some sort of concise hypothesis about this that is grammatically correct in a scientific sense.

 

[indigoaura]

So, I have penned an email which I am going to start sending to researchers. I am posting it here to get feedback from others. I plan to search Pubmed to identify researchers who are studying similar issues, and then I will email them and ask for their assistance with designing and implementing a study regarding this phenomena.

My email:

To Whom it may Concern:

I am writing in the hopes of finding a reputable researcher and lab who would be willing to investigate a phenomena that has been noted and studied within the recreational drug using community for over a year. Our ability to further investigate this issue is limited due to a lack of access to lab equipment or the necessary legal permissions. It is a public health and safety concern, and currently available harm reduction testing does not accurately protect users.

Summary:
MDMA users have noticed a marked difference the effect profile of substances that have been sold as MDMA and tested as MDMA by GCMS labs such as Ecstasy Data and International Energy Control. These variations in effect have been noted by users with a wide variety of usage histories including virgin and new users, so tolerance does not explain the differences that have been noticed.

MDMA typically produces feelings of euphoria and empathy as well as sensory enhancement. Physical milestones typically include noticeable eye dilation and jaw clenching. Users report energy, dancing, and a desire to talk to/be with people.

However, there is a large amount of product circling the market that appears to be MDMA based on both reagent testing and lab testing. This product does not produce empathy, euphoria, or sensory enhancement even at high doses. Also significant - the product does not produce mydriasis even among new MDMA users. Users report a feeling of coldness, introversion, tiredness, and overall lack of energy. This product is also producing more significant physical illness following use, and other long term issues.

Despite these markedly different profiles, both products appear to be MDMA when examined by GCMS. Multiple MDMA users have submitted samples with the same results.

One of our volunteers, however, had access to raman spectroscopy equipment. He found impurities that GCMS testing did not, such as the compound MDPH.

Based on our research, we suspect that a new designer drug has infiltrated the market and is being sold as MDMA, or is being mixed with MDMA. We suspect that this product shares the molecular weight of MDMA and is not detected by GCMS testing. This product may indicate a significant increase in risk to recreational MDMA users.

What we need is a researcher who is willing to design and implement a legal study of this phenomenon. This would provide valuable harm reduction and potentially identify a newly emerged psychoactive substance that is being served to unwilling and unknowing users. We need advanced testing of MDMA samples beyond the GCMS testing that is currently available.

I am writing to you specifically because of your existing research on newly emerged psychoactive substances. Please consider helping us with this research. We have taken our investigation as far as possible without the involvement of researchers.

You can read parts of our conversation on this topic here: https://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/791073-What-is-wrong-with-the-MDMA-available-today

Regards,
Indigo

I am going to start by emailing the authors of this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25331619

If any of you can help me find the contact information for these authors, that would save me some time.

 

[Hilopsilo]

That sounds great, I'd definitely include this paper though; http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y (thanks ThreePointCircle), I think that is the most in depth piece of info on the subject overall and also contains instructions on how to identify these things

 

[indigoaura]

I am also going to reach out to this place:
https://www.herts.ac.uk/research/ce...drug-misuse-and-novel-psychoactive-substances

They not only study novel compounds, but also study online drug-use forums. So, they appear to see the relevance of gleaning data from forums like this.

 

[indigoaura]

Here is a copy of the slightly changed email that I began sending today. I will make additional changes as recommended.

The next step is getting the right people on board to design and implement a study. I think there are multiple angles that researchers could use to move forward with this.

To Whom It May Concern:

I am writing in the hopes of finding a reputable researcher and lab who would be willing to investigate a phenomena that has been noted and studied within the recreational drug using community for over a year. Our ability to further investigate this issue is limited due to a lack of access to lab equipment or the necessary legal permissions. It is a public health and safety concern, and currently available harm reduction testing does not adequately protect users.

Summary:
MDMA users have noticed a marked difference in the effect profile of substances that have been sold as MDMA and tested as MDMA by GCMS labs such as Ecstasy Data and International Energy Control. These variations in effect have been noted by users with a wide variety of usage histories including virgin and new users, so tolerance does not explain the differences that have been noticed.

Typical Effects:
MDMA typically produces feelings of euphoria and empathy as well as sensory enhancement. Physical milestones typically include noticeable eye dilation and jaw clenching. Users report energy, dancing, and a desire to talk to and be with people.

Alternate Effects:
However, there is a large amount of product circling the market that appears to be MDMA based on both reagent testing and lab testing. This product does not produce empathy, euphoria, or sensory enhancement even at high doses. Also significant - the product does not produce mydriasis even among new MDMA users. Users report a feeling of coldness, introversion, tiredness, and overall lack of energy. This product is also producing more significant physical illness following use, and other long term issues.

Despite these markedly different profiles, both products appear to be MDMA when examined by GCMS. Multiple MDMA users have submitted samples with the same results.

One of our volunteers, however, had access to raman spectroscopy equipment. He found impurities that GCMS testing did not, such as the compound MDPH.

Based on our research, we suspect that a new designer drug has infiltrated the market and is being sold as MDMA, or is being mixed with MDMA. We suspect that this product may share the molar mass of MDMA, and it is not detected by GCMS testing. For example, there are isobaries of MDMA that would be indistinguishable using typical GCMS testing. This product may indicate a significant increase in risk to recreational MDMA users.

More details on the substances that may appear as MDMA using GCMS: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

What we need is a researcher who is willing to design and implement a legal study of this phenomenon. This would provide valuable harm reduction and potentially identify a newly emerging psychoactive substance that is being served to unwilling and unknowing users. We need advanced testing of MDMA samples beyond the GCMS testing that is currently available.

A research study could evaluate the effectiveness of currently available GCMS testing in comparison to more advanced testing practices, and could address the research question of whether current harm reduction methods are effective at identifying modern contaminants and adulterants. Research could also address user reports in combination with testing results to identify what adulterant is causing the alternate effects profile, with the goal of improving harm reduction for MDMA users.

I am writing to you specifically because of your existing research on newly emerging psychoactive substances, as well as your interest in online drug-use communities. Please consider helping us with this research. We have taken our investigation as far as possible without the involvement of researchers. We have reached out to Ecstasy Data and International Energy Control, but they do not have the equipment needed for more advanced analysis of submitted samples.

You can read parts of our conversation on this topic here: https://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/791073-What-is-wrong-with-the-MDMA-available-today

We would so appreciate your support with taking this research to the next level.

Regards,
Indigo

 

[G_Chem]

Great idea! This is our only shot at getting this tested out. I?d be willing to communicate with any of these organizations as well if they?d like a more in depth look at the chemistry trends over the years and how they correlate perfectly with peoples complaints of a change as well as a change in the way the Marquis reacts.

I like where your heads at and appreciate your efforts!

-Gc

 

[Bella Figura]

I never sampled the MDMA of olden days, but I'm of the opinion nothing has changed.

My last experience felt totally useless and underwhelming, I actually couldn't wait for it to be over. I think after 10 years of using it I've just gotten too familiar with the effects and the novelty has worn off.

But to be fair, setting was fairly dull and had zero company.

 

[NewFaceSameTripper]

I've always bought MDMA in powder form. 120mg in a cap has always gave me a great whether it was 1/3/6 months between doses.

I dont fuck with pressed E pills. Seen too many ppl tweak an shit on a roll.

 

[Phobos]

I've always bought MDMA in powder form. 120mg in a cap has always gave me a great whether it was 1/3/6 months between doses.

I dont fuck with pressed E pills. Seen too many ppl tweak an shit on a roll.

And how does buying it in powder form rather than in pressed pills help you get pure MDMA?

 

[G_Chem]

^^It likely doesn?t but I?ll also say I feel the chances are at least a slight bit better. Most of the best small end safrole chemists likely just keep the product pureinstead of pressing for a number of reasons.

Most pressed pills are from larger operations or copycat pressers trying to make a buck. These larger operations likely use the potentially problematic synth route we have been theorizing about.

I?ll say too. I?ve had good access to lots of good quality safrole MDXX but I haven?t had a good press come my way besides a few random G6 pills from SoCal and a random MDA pill from the NE since like 2013 or so.

What I?m getting at, at least in the US, good domestic presses are hard to find. Dutch Imports have ruined it for any domestic pressers because they can?t compete to put the same dosages in.

But.... G6 is a great example of how domestic US product is still ?good.? Most folks on reddit think these pills are 200mg when they have only shown 120mg or so.. It?s cuz that 120mg high feels like 200+ of some Dutch Import. (Edit- This last point is debatable, after further looking it appears the exact Mg content may still be unknown for the G6 pressers.)

Been reading old Bl posts and trying to determine if it really was different back then, as well as my old pictures and yes it was. People still get dilated pupils here and there these days but beyond the monster pupils I noticed people?s eyes back then were all wide, mine included in a pic from a while back. These days most look munted as shit.

-GC

 

[atara]

GC/MS will not pick up differences between 3,4-MDMA and 2,3-MDMA (except, I guess, a C3H3 fragment could form, but it won't), but 1H-NMR should, through different shifts on the benzene ring. GC/MS for 4-methyl-3-methoxymethamphetamine would be rather similar but slightly different from MDMA, but I've got no idea where anyone would get the precursor for that -- there are no phenylpropanoids with that structure in natural products, and 2-methoxytoluene alkylates at 3 and 5, not 4. Clever shit like chlorination of p-tolualdehyde could work, but clandestine chemists do not like new reactions and that method requires a lot of new reactions. Cathinones should show up on GC/MS.

So what's the most likely answer? Well, pupil dilation isn't any kind of measure of MDMA quality. Amphetamines, psychedelics, dissociatives and anticholinergics all cause of pupil dilation, with anticholinergics leading the pack in severity. More likely IMO, the "lack of euphoria" is a lack of stimulation and nobody wants to admit the stuff they took in the old days was enhanced with amphetamine... if serotonin depletion causes hangovers (it's hard to actually know what causes hangovers), common sense should tell you that 150 mg of MDMA will probably release more serotonin than 100 mg of MDMA and 10 mg of amphetamine, so the former might give you a worse hangover.

The imagination of ecstasy as a wonder drug leads to bad reasoning. It was a lucky discovery with some nice properties, not a gift from Heaven.

 

[Kaden_Nite]

They are not the same. I've been doing ecstasy since 1985 and can tell you with 1000% accuracy, they are not the same by a longshot. People keep talking about setting etc. That's the bullshit. If it's the real thing, it honestly doesn't matter where you are.

Right! It doesn't matter where you are! If the pills are good they are going to be good regardless of setting. I think a lot of people who have never experienced super pure MDMA won't get that until they actually do.

Also, shezinphx, I agree. Quality MDMA makes you feel amazing nomatter what is going on or where you are.

From Pihkal:

(with 100 mg) Beforehand, I was aware of a dull, uncaring tiredness that might have reflected too little sleep, and I took a modest level of MDMA to see if it might serve me as a stimulant. I napped for a half hour or so, and woke up definitely not improved. The feeling of insufficient energy and lack of spark that I'd felt before had become something quite strong, and might be characterized as a firm feeling of negativity about everything that had to be done and everything I had been looking forward to. So I set about my several tasks with no pleasure or enjoyment and I hummed a little tune to myself during these activities which had words that went: 'I shouldn't have done that, oh yes, I shouldn't have done that, oh no, I shouldn't have done that; it was a mistake.' Then I would start over again from the beginning. I was stuck in a gray space for quite a while, and there was nothing to do but keep doing what I had to do. After about 6 hours, I could see the whole mental state disintegrating and my pleasant feelings were coming back. But so was my plain, ornery tiredness.