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Enteties (The Archon/Djinn)

Well then what do you believe about them? Your claims. Forget what others say. What is it that is in you to take them as valid?
 
Well then what do you believe about them? Your claims. Forget what others say. What is it that is in you to take them as valid?

Emotions. It's always emotions that make one believe in fairytales. People look for comfort in the strangest places.
 
I dont think it is all emotions with Ninae though. For what its worth, she is one of the truer believers here and I was mostly interested in what innate drive or calling allows for this.

You know where I stand on such things b_d but it is still useful to understand what makes one feel that this is as real as the chair Im sitting on.
 
I'm sorry if my comment seemed to downplay the seriousness of such beliefs. Still, as far as I've had experience (talking to people etc) in this subject, it all comes down to emotions or some blocks within one's personality. I first learned that from my father, when I tried to ask my way into why he believes in Christianity.

Then again, I don't know that much about the ins and outs of things like the subject of this thread, but I do know that Christianity, Islam and other similar religions appeal to emotion.
 
I view Jinn the same way I view Odin or Thor... An interesting or cool part of an ancient culture and mythology, but do they actually exist? Probably not. I am open to the possibility of spirits, but if they do exist who or what they are I don't know.
 
I went exploring Ta' Ħaġrat temples today looking for djinn.

Didn't find any.

But the temples have been reconstructed a fair bit.

The culture around that time embraced such things.

I can only think that the ideas of the djinn have been used as a way to explain certain phrnomena, and people will grasp ways of rationalising behaviour which makes sense to them.
 
I dont think it is all emotions with Ninae though. For what its worth, she is one of the truer believers here and I was mostly interested in what innate drive or calling allows for this.

I have a personal relationship with God, but I can't really explain that. But since I've been around 17 I've just known there is a spiritual world and you have eternal life.

Even if it weren't so, it would be hard to read so much of all the mystical, religious, and initiatic texts of our world and not come away with some conviction, not to mention belief. It's not that different to studying mathmathics and seeing that it works!
 
I do agree. But with math you are bound by logic and proof. Do you feel it was more of an indoctrination or just a validation of the beliefs you were already beginning to form that study galvanized?

Tell me, if you care to, about your personal nature with God. Do you speak to him and he back? Or is it more of a feeling you know he is guiding you? Or something else entirely. I ask because I mainly dont believe in anything religious or spiritual because they are not really needed with todays understanding of science. But I was Catholic once. And in my transition to atheism, when all the Catholicism wasnt fully removed, I would at times try to talk or pray to God. Sometimes in times of despair and sometimes when I was fine. Got nothing in return. No enlightenment. No well-being. No mystical experience. So how did your path go Ninae that made you know God is real?
 
If by chance someone has a profound spiritual experience with no other signs of psychosis, I think it perfectly rational to consider the possibility that spiritualism is a real thing... as much as an objective person would hate to.
 
If divinity was objectively confirmed, only an idiot would still disbelieve. The fact is that there is no more evidence for god than there is for Sauron. For me that's a sticking point. I don't waste my time beholden to what is essentially conjecture.
 
Well, objectively confirmed to oneself. Still however if preached to others it remains entirely anecdotal and unempirical to everyone else.
 
It's a subjective phenomena. The door is within and you have to find it through your own inner organs of perception. That's the whole point of it - it's a way to explore outside of the bounds of the material world.

Saying there's no material proof of it doesn't prove anything. It's not in its nature to be objectively proven. The way you can get objective proof is when many people with the same experiences get together or comparing experiences with others. Just like with psychic or other occult experiences. Some would swear there is no such a thing, while some have no doubt because of their experience. That's just how it is.

But these things normally take time to develop. It's something that has to mature in you over time. You have to seek it out, it doesn't force itself on you. It's a process you have to go through for yourself, not just something to believe in or not.

http://with-omraam.com/invisible-world-can-doubt/
 
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^ the one thing I don't understand with this spiritual thing is if it's outside the bounds of the material world, how do you know it's there? You have to able to interact with it to know it's there, right? And if you are able to interact, while being a real and material being yourself, then it means there is a connection between the spiritual and material world, and using that connection proper empirical evidence could be collected. Thus far, none. I'm not trying to bash your beliefs, I'm just genuinely curious how believers get around that problem.
 
double^^

\\Speaking as a closet spiritualist now. This is your warning.

Technicaly --technically, empirical evidence HAS been collected by Occultist groups, in that there was experimentation, group observation and the like... The problem therein lies is that the evidence is completely non presentable to anyone not involved in the activity (goatfucking?) so to speak.

This is enough to satisfy a lot of people, the religous, spiritualists, any American dunderhead who watches Ghost Adventures (guilty as charged here).

It just lack that quality. We can point to the moon and say "There's the moon", but we can't point at a spirit and say that's a spirit... feel me? And the reason why we can't is because of one thing, the nature and concept of a spirit according to the accounts of other people, as well as disagreeing science communities who disregard it as either fake due to lack of (presentable) empirical evidence, or bat shit insane.

This leaves the devout spiritually feeling kind of hopeless. But that's a good thing I think. What would the world be like if some satanist had empirical evidence that Satan should be obeyed and murder was a must? I am in no way indicating that this is a satanic value. Just an example.

At the end of the day the only one who can prove it to you is yourself.

\\Getting back in the closet now.

I neither assert that a non-physical realm is real or not real, nor that it can or can't be proven or disproven.

TLDR
 
Well, to be fair, you can't observe a lot of the world with your bare eyes. You can't see individual molecules (tyres don't count!), you can't see atoms or sub-atomic particles. But we still know they most likely exist because we have been able to prove their existence through experiments in which the observer can be a macro object like human. Science has long ago become indirect (again, can't see that photon, but we know it's there 'cuz experiment).

Another thing I've wondered about, and Ninae actually said it in her last comment. Something along the lines of "you have to look and search for the spiritual to see it, it won't force itself on you". Which, to me, is another way of saying "it's not there, but you look hard enough, you can see things that are not there". Nature/material world is anything but that. No matter how hard you try not to believe in gravity, you'll still fall to a puddle of minced meat if you step out of a high window.
 
One thing that isn't obviously physical but still isn't completely ignored by all mainstream scientists is the human (or animal) conscious experience, in the sense of David Chalmers' "Hard Problem of Consciousness". It's difficult to think of conscious experience as something material, because we don't know how to describe it with raw numbers. Physical objects have temperature, mass, position and velocity, all of which can be measured and described with numerical data, but consciousness can't be described in the same way. Apparently consciousness is still able to affect the material world, because otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it with our physical mouth and tongue.

Consciousness has some properties that most people can agree about, which gives some support to the idea of it being something objective. For example, the way how we treat some "entity" is only morally relevant if that entity has consciousness. An engineer can build a toy mouse that will squeak if you step on it or throw it against the wall, but you won't be contacted by "Robot Welfare Officials" if you do that. Also, most scientifically minded people agree that consciousness doesn't have a memory of its own, it lives strictly in the present moment. It can access information about past events only if that information has been physically recorded in the brain. This is made obvious by the fact that memories can be erased by physical brain damage or alcohol/benzos/other drugs. Of course, some people claim they can recall events from past lives/incarnations, or something like that, but those are difficult to take seriously.

However, it has to be remembered that people from different cultures have occationally reached somewhat mutually agreeing "theories" about other "supernatural" things too. For example, in many cultures around the world there's a Creation Myth where the world has been created from a "Cosmic Bird's Egg". That kind of myth can be found in the Finnish Kalevala, and from the ancient Tibetan mythology that dates before the time before Buddhism arrived to Tibet, and other places. This kind of similarities in myths related to the supernatural are probably a result of certain culture independence in human psychology: Same types of ideas may be found appealing even by people from different cultures.

P.S. Ever heard about Calsutmoran?
 
^ Yes, but some people say it's just an artifact of the physical processes that occur in our brains, and isn't anything concrete enough to even study seriously.
 
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