Mental Health Psychiatric Treatments Debate vs trot out your medications bias and lemme at it

[herbavore]

^I can assure you that none of us are paid bloggers or in any other way benefit from this work. We all do it because we believe in the purpose of the site as a whole and as far as the Mental Health sub-forum goes, we believe in open expression for those living with mental illness--ideally that should include very diverse perspectives borne of personal experience. I think if we could all take a step back while simultaneously taking a big deep breath and recognize that this thread is here for discussion and we are all freely discussing, we can keep it going with a minimum of bruised feelings. When you find yourself getting angry at someone's perspective that does not jive with your own (I'm addressing all of us here, including moderators) recognize that the purpose of this thread is not to establish right or wrong but to gather the collective opinions of people whose experiences give them every right to claim them.

We are dealing with a branch of medical science that is evolving. It has both nefarious (big pharma, some psychiatrists,law enforcement, schools) as well as altruistic players (some psychiatrists, neuroscientists, some schools), and as anyone knows that has interacted with this world--it can be utter chaos finding the help you need. I think this sub forum functions best when people continually anchor their advice to phrases like, "in my experience" or "when I tried this", etc.--whether it is about standard psychiatric treatment, alternative treatments, supplements, forms of non-medical therapy or any other aspect of trying to reach optimal mental health. We are not here to advocate for anything specifically. We would be irresponsible if we were. It is my hope that every person using this site feels free to express their opinions and experiences surrounding treatment. I also hope that no one will take the advice of peers on the internet as medical advice. Recently a member very thoughtfully questioned whether the sub-forum was doing more harm than good as she/he felt that people were being advised to go against their doctor's advice (particularly in stopping a medication). My response was that we cannot ultimately control what a person does with information gotten off Bluelight, we can only do our best as moderators to insure that any"advice" concerning medication is accompanied by the caveat of "discuss this with a trusted medical professional."

Hilary, I share your distrust of the "experts". I too had a son that was harmed, not helped, by the standard psychiatric practices of our time. Through him, I became involved with NAMI, with al-anon and with this site. I have learned much from my association with all three even when they contradict one another. My son died of his despair and his dis-ease. This experience has radicalized me in many ways, not the least of which is my need to speak out against the legal drugging of many of our youth who not only do not need it but are often severely harmed by it. However, my close association with the mental health client community where I live as well as through friends on this site who need medication for survival and quality of life will always temper any tendencies I may have for myopia. One site that I visit quite a bit is The Icarus Project. It is a peer forum by people struggling with mental health issues with a definite anti-medication bias (though many members are also on medication). Another resource you may find helpful is The Foundation for Excellence in Mental Health.

Bottom line is that as a moderator I hear criticisms from both sides ("this forum is dangerous and advocates untested therapies and has an anti-medication bias" and "this forum has a medication/status quo bias"). I think there is room enough for us all to speak our minds freely. The guidelines were the best we could come up with to prevent medical advice being dispensed by non-medically trained people. We could start a thread for guidelines discussion if anyone feels it would be helpful. I hear your discouragement but I hope that rather than feeling beaten down by the cacophony of diverse voices, you may know that yours is as important as anyone's.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

The last few moderator posts on this thread are a great illustration of a common complaint that I hear about this website. Many people have told me personally that the moderators make a concerted effort to smother any discussion that attempts to offer alternatives to the standard psychiatric treatments and standard psychotropic drug regiment.

I understand the regrettable need to have discussion forum rules that prevent posters from persuading patients to stop taking medication that their doctor prescribes. Like it or not, in our real world situation, these 'doctors' are the 'experts'. Never mind that what they do is basically educated guesswork, and they in fact do significant damage and create tremendous suffering rather than cure anything or promote healing, and they are only modestly successful with treating symptoms. Apparently that's good enough for most people.

I suspect the real problem is that if someone with a label of a mental illness stops taking their medication based on the recommendation of another poster and subsequently does something terrible, then some people will blame the poster who made the suggestion, and probably not the doctor who prescribed the medication in the first place. Never mind that the medication causes extreme suffering, and the patient is desperate to escape the pain and misery of the side effects of their meds.

The problem with that argument is that it doesn't take into account all the people who suffer tremendously and do terrible things because of their medication. Many victims of approved psychiatric treatment can simply no longer tolerate the way they feel.

I am disappointed that the site developers don't do more to monitor and ensure a more balanced representation among moderators. There appears to be an over abundance of moderators who vehemently support the current psychiatric model and actively attack dissenters rather than moderate discussions.

The moderators on this site, from my experience, attack and denigrate those who don't agree with them. That is not a definition of moderating a discussion. Here is the Webopedia definition of a moderator:
[/INDENT]

I originally came to this site at a very difficult time - looking for some positive stories of people who were able to recover from their psychiatric drugging at the hands of so-called doctors who regularly violate their Hippocratic oath to first of all "do no harm".


It became very clear early on, that moderators on this site actively promote psychiatry and psychotropic drugs. I must apologize in advance if I offend anyone who is truly a dedicated volunteer and honestly believes in their treatment. But this recent activity has made me wonder if all of the moderators are really who they claim to be, and not simply paid bloggers from the sales and advertising departments of pharmaceutical companies.

I think a lot of what you're missing is that treatment isn't as "standardized" as you might think. Most good psychiatrsits will work with their patients to develop a customized plan.

I'd invite you to explain why your claims of, for instance, figuring out the source of schizophrenia, as I remember reading in one of your posts before, are more supported than the opinions of people who spend a decade in higher education learning how to heal the human body.

Lumping all the doctors into one is a fallacy plain and simple. You yourself don't want to be treated unfairly, right?

Anyone who cares about their future and trusts other human beings whom are genuinely looking after their welfare would know that there's no miracle, insta-cure drug. It's like a kid who never does their homework becoming upset because they can't do long division. You have to work at it. And by-and-large, things get easier. Drugs that apparently immediately resolve symptoms also tend to be very addictive. Anyone who doesn't work at solving their problems meets "pain and misery". There's no free ticket to happiness.

In a world of several billion people, with so many involved in mental health treatment, I'm not surprised that such stories pop up. The fact is that this is such a small population that it's hardly significant.

Please excuse you if my message wasn't cordial enough. I was, as I stated, trying to offer some constructive criticism for the sake of other posters and viewers.

For feeling so wronged, you seem strangely immune to recognizing the opinions of others.

That's ironic, because of how much you push CBD, others might wonder the same thing about you and that compound.

Take Care

 

[SixBuckets]

The last few moderator posts on this thread are a great illustration of a common complaint that I hear about this website. Many people have told me personally that the moderators make a concerted effort to smother any discussion that attempts to offer alternatives to the standard psychiatric treatments and standard psychotropic drug regiment.

...

I am disappointed that the site developers don't do more to monitor and ensure a more balanced representation among moderators. There appears to be an over abundance of moderators who vehemently support the current psychiatric model and actively attack dissenters rather than moderate discussions.

If you're referring to me, I'm not a moderator on the Mental Health board. You can see which boards different posters are moderators of by reading the subheading underneath their username. As you can see, I'm a moderator on the Australian Drug Discussion board, but on this board, I have no greater power or influence than any other poster. I'm engaging with you as a community member and a mental health consumer, not as a BL moderator.

It became very clear early on, that moderators on this site actively promote psychiatry and psychotropic drugs.

Anyone on this forum who promotes a particular form of treatment for mental illness - whether they are a moderator or not - is doing so because of their own experiences, research, and personal views. Just like you. There is no rule against posters on BL expressing a personal preference about mental health treatment or anything else.

I must apologize in advance if I offend anyone who is truly a dedicated volunteer and honestly believes in their treatment. But this recent activity has made me wonder if all of the moderators are really who they claim to be, and not simply paid bloggers from the sales and advertising departments of pharmaceutical companies.

That would be a very poor use of an advertising budget.

I can assure you that every moderator on BL is here in their own time, using their own resources, because we care about harm reduction. There's no nefarious Big Pharma conspiracy to fund forum posts to convince you to see a doctor - just volunteers giving up their time to make sure your forum experience is free of trolling and dangerous misinformation and spam and graphic pornographic images (yes, that happens more than you'd think).

 

[sigmond]

curious to hear thoughts on this article; its 3,000 words so im just going to post the link

 

[herbavore]

maybe it would be a good idea if we kept science and business separate as it seems to be one of the most hindering aspects of the psychiatric community. a business man looking over a scientists shoulder saying hurry up and do this and make me some money doesn't seem to have the interests of the scientist, the entity of science and the people they are trying to help in mind.

This is at the crux of the matter when it comes to modern mental health research.

@herbavore: i am sorry for your loss. my heart goes out to you. your uplifting words to those who are troubled are always just what is needed. both the person you are born as and the person you chose to become are inspirational and i can't say enough great things about you. you make it difficult to not find love within ones self, to not see the brighter and better side to what it means to live and to being a human being. thank you for your work on this topic and it has done good things. well worth it mama bear. as always you are loved.

Thank you so much. Your support has meant more than you could possibly know.

 

[Jaykay77]

Just wondering if anybody's found an alternative to dexamphetamine that's actually worked for them. Dexamphetamine does not clear the fog in my head or help my concentration. Any help would be great.

 

[Mmp85]

Never taken it but I've been happy with Adderal and Vyvanse.

 

[LordOfTabs]

for the most three diagnosed mental disorders in outpatient facilities in the united states, ill start with
Anxiety: sure most people have a bit of anxiety from time to time, and in stressed people, it can be daily. for someone not self aware of their own psyche, they can easily become the victim of your local psychiatrist.
Anxiety CAN be cured through diet exercise and good old fashion positive living.
a doctors idea of treatment is a highly addictive line of drugs that are fatal to quit cold turkey. and the result of stopping these drugs is HEIGHTENED anxiety and depression.
then theres DEPRESSION: depressed people need an active change in their lives more than anything. medications like lexapro, are a horrible idea seeing as your altering your natural mood chemistry. and doctors dont know 100% about them yet! (warning may cause suicide, antidepressents..?)4

and my favorite, ADHD/ADD. giving children amphetimines, including DESOXYN. (methamphetimine)
then treating them in their 20s for psychotic symptoms due to amphetimine psychosis and exposure at a young age. tsk tsk.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

I don't think very many people will defend benzos, which apart from in the US in the developed world are pretty difficult to get long-term. SSRIs do some positive and lasting work on the brain of depressed people, it seems.

It's true that psychiatry is not as much of a science as say, oncology, but progress is being made. And progress is progress.

I highly doubt very many people are actually prescribed desoxyn, let alone children. It's not like they're giving 100mg meth pills to toddlers or anything. It comes in pretty darn small doses. I'm not a fan, but there's more to it than you imply.

I can see that happening. Kid is a bit restless so gets amphetamine which eventually leads to psychotic side effects. Don't think i happens much.

 

[Mmp85]

If your natural brain chemistry is depressed, then changing your brain chemistry isn't a bad thing.

 

[HezzaD]

On Olanzapine 5mg Duloxetine 30mg Pregabalin 600mg and Diazepam 8mg (cut down from 30mg), 7 Temazepam 20mg to last me a month when my main problem is insomnia!!!
Duloxetine has lifted my depression only been on it 3 weeks so don't think got full effects, Just got racing thoughts, can't enjoy things due to anxiety, my morning depression has lifted tremendously since starting Duloxetine, not been wanting to sleep all day and not as nervous leaving the house.
I also take morphine 60mg twice a day but that isn't to do with mental health, I swear I have adhd, even my psych thinks so but theres no adhd doctors in my area and they wont pay for me to see someone outside this area even though when i tried concerta off a friend, I took the pill properly I felt normal. I got a lot of cleaning done and generally felt happy for once I go to the psych what does he prescribe me quetiapine for insomnia he offered me 2mg diazepam for anxiety back then I said no but hate how I started anti psychotics now I will need them for life

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

That's not necessarily true. Some people stay on meds for life, some don't. It's just about what you need or don't need.

Concerta can make people happy as a side effect. That goes away after a short time.

I'm kind of surprised that you're wanting a stimulant, considering that you're on three different tranquilizers, not counting a hypnotic (temazepam). Maybe you should consider that these tranquilizers might be negatively affecting your concentration and cognition.

 

[Emptty]

Everything in moderation, psych meds included.
Being overmedicated as a kid left me with far more issues than it ever fixed but being properly medicated as a teenager saved my life. I don't take meds right now and don't intend to because I understand my biochemistry enough to know the pros and cons and to make that choice. I won't fault anyone who gets to know their brain and decides they need medication but I will fault any doctor that tells someone medication is their only option. That goes even moreso for doctors in hospitals who think they have the right to use their power or the legal system to force medication on a patient.

I will be honest, while I'm inclined to support adults who choose medication for themselves I am extremely wary of those who medicate their children. I'm not going to pretend as if medication can't benefit a child in certain situations but children aren't as able to communicate what's helping and what they don't feel ok with. Medicating a child falls into an area involving questionable levels of consent, and sometimes adults do need to make choices for children but I fear most are to slow to listen to kids and to fast to assume there's no other solution. Many of my behavior problems in childhood would have been fixed by removing me from an abusive situation and ensuring my needs as an autistic child were being met. Instead I was medicated with anything they could think to try and everyone wondered why I was only getting worse over time.

Psychiatric medication has it's place and I will gladly fight anyone who shames someone for taking it, but I won't act as if it's not overused in situations where therapy or other approaches would be far more beneficial.

 

[herbavore]

Everything in moderation, psych meds included.
Being overmedicated as a kid left me with far more issues than it ever fixed but being properly medicated as a teenager saved my life. I don't take meds right now and don't intend to because I understand my biochemistry enough to know the pros and cons and to make that choice. I won't fault anyone who gets to know their brain and decides they need medication but I will fault any doctor that tells someone medication is their only option. That goes even moreso for doctors in hospitals who think they have the right to use their power or the legal system to force medication on a patient.

I will be honest, while I'm inclined to support adults who choose medication for themselves I am extremely wary of those who medicate their children. I'm not going to pretend as if medication can't benefit a child in certain situations but children aren't as able to communicate what's helping and what they don't feel ok with. Medicating a child falls into an area involving questionable levels of consent, and sometimes adults do need to make choices for children but I fear most are to slow to listen to kids and to fast to assume there's no other solution. Many of my behavior problems in childhood would have been fixed by removing me from an abusive situation and ensuring my needs as an autistic child were being met. Instead I was medicated with anything they could think to try and everyone wondered why I was only getting worse over time.

Psychiatric medication has it's place and I will gladly fight anyone who shames someone for taking it, but I won't act as if it's not overused in situations where therapy or other approaches would be far more beneficial.

You sound like you not only survived but took what you learned and now have a lot to offer. Have you ever thought about going into a field where you could influence parents (and pediatricians) and educators not to medicate before everything else has been tried? I feel like the best people to get this across are people with life experience. As a teacher I was always saddened to get the news that one of my students was being medicated. I would have rather seen them try a different kind of educational setting.

 

[Emptty]

You sound like you not only survived but took what you learned and now have a lot to offer. Have you ever thought about going into a field where you could influence parents (and pediatricians) and educators not to medicate before everything else has been tried? I feel like the best people to get this across are people with life experience. As a teacher I was always saddened to get the news that one of my students was being medicated. I would have rather seen them try a different kind of educational setting.

It's unfortunate how fast kids get medicated for problems that show up in educational settings, especially when the source of those is usually environmental. My parents have told me a story about when my they had me on Ritalin. The day they finally discontinued it my teacher went to them and said "What did you do? His behavior was so much better today!" I never needed stimulant meds to help me focus I just needed the classrooms to be less distracting to me. Ritalin worsened my behavior because it only made me more anxious to be amped up all the time.

I've considered going into the mental health field and becoming a social worker or therapist, I'm not in a place right now to get through the level of education needed for it but if in the future I'm healthier and want to attempt going to college again that's definitely on the list of things I'd consider studying.

 

[betman]

It's unfortunate how fast kids get medicated for problems that show up in educational settings, especially when the source of those is usually environmental. My parents have told me a story about when my they had me on Ritalin. The day they finally discontinued it my teacher went to them and said "What did you do? His behavior was so much better today!" I never needed stimulant meds to help me focus I just needed the classrooms to be less distracting to me. Ritalin worsened my behavior because it only made me more anxious to be amped up all the time.

I've considered going into the mental health field and becoming a social worker or therapist, I'm not in a place right now to get through the level of education needed for it but if in the future I'm healthier and want to attempt going to college again that's definitely on the list of things I'd consider studying.

Hey, I'm in a similar boat in that I would like to pursue mental health as a career because of the gratitude I have towards the mental health specialists who have shaped me into who I am today. I think it's a field where I can change lives for the better.

I also have loops to go through myself, and have asked social workers, therapists, and others in the field about it. They're all very encouraging! Why aren't you currently in a place to get through education? I believe social work is a 4 year degree and it isn't as rigorous as becoming a psychologist or psychiatrist.

 

[betman]

To talk about my own experiences:

I was never offered psychiatric treatment for my diagnosed social anxiety and depression. I go to therapy for CBT. The clinic I go to does not seem to be interested in prescribing meds for me, as they deem my case not severe enough to warrant medication and its side effects. The strange thing is, I have spoken to GPs and doctors and they all state that a mixture of CBT and an SSRI is the best way to combat my mental health issues.

What is your take on that? I was interested in taking an SSRI but a nurse and many others (albeit unlicensed) have told me that the SSRI sides will never be worth the benefits.

As of right now, I have anxiety, depressive symptoms, and fatigue. I self treat with meth, etizolam, and alcohol. From my understanding, CBT is about reframing. I do believe that I am able to reframe my mindset while on meth because of the confidence it gives me. I would do or say things I otherwise would be too anxious to do. Etizolam is for my insomnia and to lessen my overall anxiety, although I believe that all benzos are merely a bandaid. Alcohol is bad and I know it.

What do you guys think about using meth as a treatment for anxiety and depression? It alleviates my symptoms in some cases, and what i want to do is be able to do sober what I do while high on meth.

To be honest, I am not too interested in pushing for an SSRI until I can kick meth because of its interactions and also because of SSRI sides.

 

[acheter]

Mania is not good if you become homicidal, suicidal, or can't function in daily activities.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

We can't make that decision for you, betman. We don't diagnose and recommend drug use, even something like an SSRI.

That's a horrible idea, frankly. Meth is not just pretty toxic, but it tends to destroy lives particularly quickly. If you want to feel as competent while not on meth, start seriously investing recovery resources that help you. Then, wait, build it up over years. It's not going to come like a hit. It takes hard work and practice on oneself.

So lose the meth right away. If you continue to use, you'll use higher doses until, eventually, it will play very serious, damaging games on your mind and brain. No one would contest that it short-term relieves depression. That's what recreational drugs do. But it's going to cause 10 times that amount in pain unless you get it out of your life.

 

[dimlyFourOwls]

My psychiatrist has been very conservative about dosing me. He is on the opposite end of your concern with over-medication. My current psychiatrist.

My previous psychiatrist wanted to put me on higher than the recommended upper limit of olanzapine because I wasn't responding.

So, I think it varies by practitioner.

Both sides are frustrating. It's frustrating to have a doctor want to put you on a dangerous level of a medication instead of trying a new one, and it's also frustrating having a doctor resilient to meeting the minimum effective dose for your condition because he thinks you should just tolerate the suffering.

Are either sides suable? :3