Test E + Prop kickstart & Prop bridging into PCT. Thoughts?

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watdapho

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Joined
May 29, 2015
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Hello BL Forums! First post, noobie here :)

I'm about to start my second cycle and there are a few things I want to address. Can I substitute DBOL with Test Prop as a kick start? I know it's not recommended to use two different esters but I want to avoid the excessive amortization of test and water retention that DBOL induces. Also, I have heard of people using Test Prop in their final weeks of their cycle to bridge into their PCT. The logic behind this is that users would be able to jump into their PCT quicker as opposed to test E (because prop leaves the system quicker).

My cycle would like something like this..
Week 1-10 Test E
Week 1-3 Test P
Week 11-12 Test P

Followed by clomid (50mg pills).. 50/50/25/25

All criticism welcome!
 
Dianabol and testosterone propionate are two drastically different compounds to compare for a kickstart in pharmacokinetics and recommended dosing time. From my experience with prop I did it every 3rd day. Dianabol on the other hand has an extremely short half-life and is used on a daily basis or even splitting the dosages up through the day ( 60mg/day at 15mg every 8 hours) I wouldn't recommend 60mg though due to hepatoxicity, increased side effects and being your 2nd cycle. It generally has a peak plasma level around the 2 hour marker dependent upon one's own personal metabolic variances.

Testosterone enanthate is definitely a good choice if you're fearful of the aromatase percentage due to the relatively long half life associated with the ester and minimal spikes in T serum concentrate. Also, in relation to you mentioning about "others" using testosterone propionate in their final weeks is just a personal choice and the logic is based upon anecdotal evidence. Would it speed recovery? debatable. However, if your coming up to a competition I could see the alterations being considered then. Others may have different answers. If you took the propionate part out and just continued enanthate till the end of cycle, I would recommend starting your PCT 14 days after last injection.

In regards to PCT. Some people do perfectly fine with just Clomid, but when Clomid and Nolvadex are used in concurrence with each other it produces a synergistic effect. They interact with the same receptors and thus creates a competitive environment between the two. They both help facilitate the secretion of LH, but in very different manners. Clomid increases the amplitude of LH secretion which is an increase to the root variable associated with the fluctuation of serum concentrate over a period of time. Nolvadex on the other hand acts on the frequency of LH production. So the amplified variable now occurs on a higher frequency in relations to structuring the pulsation of LH as a wave length.

Nolva also has a high affinity for binding to estrogen receptors in breast tissue so keep that in mind.

Do you plan on running an AI or HCG during cycle? Considering you're fearful of estrogenic side effects. IMO I recommend an AI, but thats just an opinion. Not a factual statement.
Can you please post your dosages, too? Do you get blood work pre, mid, and post cycle?
 
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GrymReefer said:
From my experience with prop I did it every 3rd day
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Did you use it for a kickstart? If so, how many weeks did you cycle it for and what dose?

GrymReefer said:
In regards to PCT. Some people do perfectly fine with just Clomid, but when Clomid and Nolvadex are used in concurrence with each other it produces a synergistic effect. They interact with the same receptors and thus creates a competitive environment between the two. They both help facilitate the secretion of LH, but in very different manners. Clomid increases the amplitude of LH secretion which is an increase to the root variable associated with the fluctuation of serum concentrate over a period of time. Nolvadex on the other hand acts on the frequency of LH production. So the amplified variable now occurs on a higher frequency in relations to structuring the pulsation of LH as a wave length.
Click to expand...

Do you have the studies for that? I would like to read it haha. I am not doubting you or anything, I just like reading journal articles.

GrymReefer said:
Do you plan on running an AI or HCG during cycle? Considering you're fearful of estrogenic side effects. IMO I recommend an AI, but thats just an opinion. Not a factual statement.
Can you please post your dosages, too? Do you get blood work pre, mid, and post cycle?
Click to expand...

Test E: 250mgx2 a week
Test P: 100mg Every second day

My doses are pretty low and standard so I don't think there will be a need for an AI. Administering HCG on the other hand... tell me if I'm wrong but I believe it's counter-intuitive in running it during PCT as it suppresses test...
 
I'm at work right now I'll get the studies when I get back for you.

HCG would be used on cycle due to being a LH analog, not during PCT. It would suppress the endogenous production from the pituitary if used during that time. However on cycle it prevents testicular atrophy by supplementing LH to the testes and maintaining one's own testosterone production in concurrence with exogenous administration of AAS. I'm just a little crazy about estrogen especially when people claim they don't need an AI on cycle or even at hand, but they also don't take the time to get proper blood work.

Its like riding your bike and smashing your head on the ground and then you go and put your helmet on afterwards...

To each their own. There is no real right answer because the field of AAS usage is subjected to so many variables and the nature of complexity in each human. Also, it is technically illegal so it is hard to get some very comprehensive studies that would be beneficial. I'm sure someone will chime in later in the day with a different perspective. Always nice to get all the angles.



EDIT: Got ten minutes to spare. No I have never used test prop for a kick start. You can generally use whatever you want to signify what you believe a kick start should be. However, I was taught the idea behind it was to create an anabolic surge to help speed up the initial start and by the time you have reached the limit on your kickstart your main substance of choice should be at its active life. So with that given theory in mind why not use a more aggressive hormone that is not recommended for extended periods of time? Dianabol is a classic for kick starts and its a popular choice in consideration for a second cycle. I didn't try adding another compound till my 3rd time around.
 
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watdapho said:
Hello BL Forums! First post, noobie here :)

I'm about to start my second cycle and there are a few things I want to address. Can I substitute DBOL with Test Prop as a kick start? I know it's not recommended to use two different esters but I want to avoid the excessive amortization of test and water retention that DBOL induces. Also, I have heard of people using Test Prop in their final weeks of their cycle to bridge into their PCT. The logic behind this is that users would be able to jump into their PCT quicker as opposed to test E (because prop leaves the system quicker).

My cycle would like something like this..
Week 1-10 Test E
Week 1-3 Test P
Week 11-12 Test P

Followed by clomid (50mg pills).. 50/50/25/25

All criticism welcome!
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forums watdapho.

(1) Don't do a kick-start
(2) Don't do a cliff-edge
(3) Allow Test E's natural half-life to taper you up and off
(4) Ideally use the last two weeks to take Test E at low dose (125mg/wk), before starting PCT
 
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CFC said:
Welcome to the forums watdapho.

(1) Don't do a kick-start
(2) Don't do a cliff-edge
(3) Allow Test E's natural half-life to taper you up and off
(4) Ideally use the last two weeks to take Test E at low dose (125mg/wk), before starting PCT
Click to expand...

Thank you! Looking forward to contribute when I can... anyways.

Why shouldn't I do a kick-start and a "cliff-edge"? Is it because of the complications that arise from fluctuating blood levels?
 
watdapho said:
Thank you! Looking forward to contribute when I can... anyways.

Why shouldn't I do a kick-start and a "cliff-edge"? Is it because of the complications that arise from fluctuating blood levels?
Click to expand...

Not fluctuations in that sense no. I never could understand what anyone saw in front-loading*. Why would anyone want to max-out their hormone levels right at the start of a cycle, when they're already most receptive to any change, and then have nothing left to pump the gas later on? It makes no sense. A cleverer approach is to keep challenging the body by adding and changing things, to counteract the diminishing returns.

For example: adding more AAS compounds and/or tapering up the dose (only for experienced bodybuilders who know their body well), or increasing training intensity, caloric intake, supplements (eg creatine, phosphatidylserine - things to counteract rising myostatin and glucocorticoids), and so on.

For you, I wouldn't suggest the complication of tapering up your test throughout the cycle because it's only your second and you can't yet know how you'll react to sides (eg blood pressure changes, gyno etc). But still, you can let the Test E do it's own thing and gradually peak in plasma after about 2-3 weeks.

With regards to tapering off, it's to allow your body to adapt to the sudden drop in hormone stimulus as your cycle ends. The change from a high plasma hormone level to levels post-cycle/during PCT is as drastic as can be. If you break that down by dropping say 90% of the way first, to a near-physiological level of test, and hold it for at least a few weeks before fully coming off to Test E's own half-life taper, then the subsequent decline will logically be less precipitous and provoke less catabolic adaptation.

In other words, you give the equilibriating systems in your physiology (such as myostatin and glucorticoids) a chance to level off before completely removing your anabolic stimulus. For the same reason I tend to use the final weeks of a cycle with my clients to take them off supplements so that, as the AAS gradually goes, they can reintroduce them for a bit of a boost.

Hope this makes sense.

*I acknowledge why 'bros' do so: to get things going quicker because - they reason - it takes 'weeks' before the AAS starts working. This is complete nonsense. Within 24hrs your plasma levels from a single shot of Test E will peak; it's pretty instantaneous! I'm not saying protein synthesis doesn't accelerate as the body adapts, I'm sure it does. But most of us don't see changes until a few weeks for the obvious reason that muscle takes time to accumulate and be visible, and this will be the case regardless of how much AAS you take in the first weeks. The only bodybuilders who are likely to see changes quicker are those who are already pretty lean, who will look more pumped and vascular within days.
 
watdapho said:
Do you have the studies for that?
Click to expand...

Clomid does more then act as an anti-estrogen in certain tissues. In the pituitary it acts as an estrogen, sensitizing pituitary cells to the actions of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). This stimulates release of FSH & LH. Enclomid the active anti-estrogenic component of Clomid is as effective as Clomid in this regard.

Tamoxifen (an anti-estrogen) is completely ineffective.

Clomid mediates the positive effect at the estrogen receptor.

Both Clomid and tamoxifen are almost equally effective at binding to the pituitary estrogen receptor. As noted Tamoxifen has no estrogen mediated effect in terms of an ability to increase GnRH-stimulated release of FSH & LH. What it does is just occupy the receptors...or block them so that E2 or Clomid can not have a positive influence.

That isn't what we want in the first few weeks of PCT. That is why not to use Tamoxifen in those early weeks.


Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro, E. Y. Adashi, A. J. Hsueh, T. H. Bambino and S. S. Yen,AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism, Vol 240, Issue 2 125-E130

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(- M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M.

Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively.

Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin
 
Well I gotta go back to the drawing boards and destroy everything I thought I knew or interpreted.

I got schooled.
 
GrymReefer said:
Well I gotta go back to the drawing boards and destroy everything I thought I knew or interpreted.

I got schooled.
Click to expand...
Lol I was in the same boat about a year ago when GF brought forth this "not mainstream" pct serm info. I was thinking "but everyone touts Clomid +Nolva together"... Then he backed it all..." yeah science bitch! " /insertjessepinkman meme
 
Well, I guess you guys just answered all my questions! Thanks for the comprehensive input guys, much appreciated :)
 
CFC said:
Welcome to the forums watdapho.

(1) Don't do a kick-start
(2) Don't do a cliff-edge
(3) Allow Test E's natural half-life to taper you up and off
(4) Ideally use the last two weeks to take Test E at low dose (125mg/wk), before starting PCT
Click to expand...

CFC Could I get some clarification on advice you gave to watdapho.
when doing a 12 week cycle, when you said (3) Allow Test E's natural half-life to taper you up and off (4) Ideally use the last two weeks to take Test E at low dose . This would be for weeks 11 and 12? then would begin pct 2 weeks after last pin?

I've only done one cycle on test e at 150mg x2 a week for 10 weeks. Then I waited 2 weeks after last pin then started my pct. I did make the mistake of not backing down my workouts intensity and volume. Which I felt like crap after 3 weeks after last pin. I thought perhaps it was a combination of my body trying to jump start itself again and prolly high cortisol levels from not backing off the workouts a bit.

Any information that anyone willing to offer i'd appreciate it.
 
gymfrk78 said:
CFC Could I get some clarification on advice you gave to watdapho.
when doing a 12 week cycle, when you said (3) Allow Test E's natural half-life to taper you up and off (4) Ideally use the last two weeks to take Test E at low dose . This would be for weeks 11 and 12? then would begin pct 2 weeks after last pin?

I've only done one cycle on test e at 150mg x2 a week for 10 weeks. Then I waited 2 weeks after last pin then started my pct. I did make the mistake of not backing down my workouts intensity and volume. Which I felt like crap after 3 weeks after last pin. I thought perhaps it was a combination of my body trying to jump start itself again and prolly high cortisol levels from not backing off the workouts a bit.

Any information that anyone willing to offer i'd appreciate it.
Click to expand...

We tend to advise against PCT here as its believed the body will likely recover anyway.. Protection of the testes on-cycle from damage to sertoli cells via reactive oxygen species is our preferred choice.. Use Taurine 3-5g/day, and Royal Jelly 1g/day...

End of cycle reduce dose in last few weeks to taper off slowly, allowing an easier transition off exogenous testosterone, avoiding a harsh drop which can leave oestradiol and cortisol somewhat elevated, which can cause issue in some people...
 
Actually never heard of using Royal Jelly and Taurine for testes protection. I've seen either people use hcg or bypass it all together and go with pct. Tbh i never wanted to mess with hcg unless i had too. I'm content with test e cycles with no stacks. I like the idea tapering the dosage to help with the body's transition and avoiding pct unless Its more or less required. I appreciate the information. I'll look further into the science behind it and see if its the way I would prefer to cycle next time.
 
gymfrk78 said:
Actually never heard of using Royal Jelly and Taurine for testes protection. I've seen either people use hcg or bypass it all together and go with pct. Tbh i never wanted to mess with hcg unless i had too. I'm content with test e cycles with no stacks. I like the idea tapering the dosage to help with the body's transition and avoiding pct unless Its more or less required. I appreciate the information. I'll look further into the science behind it and see if its the way I would prefer to cycle next time.
Click to expand...

Look in the sticky above STUDY CORNER, its all there...
 
Yes I've see the sticky. I should have known better knowing most information is always in a sticky post but like normal too lazy to look. I do really appreciate the info and the work anyone has done to help educate myself in others.
 
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