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Serotonin/Depression Link a 'Marketing Myth'

missing_one

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The Serotonin Levels-Depression Link Is a 'Marketing Myth,' Psychiatrist Claims
April 22, 2015
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-serotonin-levels-depression-link-is-a-marketing-myth-psychiatrist-claims

​The common belief that depression is tied to serotonin levels in the brain is a myth, argues British psychiatrist David Healy in a controversial ed​itorial published Wednesday in the medical journal BMJ.

Healy, who is a professor of psychiatry at the Hergest psychiatric unit in North Wales, argues that low levels of serotonin have nothing to do with depression. He suggested that since the 1980s, people have been wrongly prescribed SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) drugs such as Prozac because of Big Pharma’s “marketing of a myth.” But SSRIs are widely considered helpful to treat depression, and are also thought to be safer than older “tricyclic” drugs.

Healy wrote that the SSRI group of drugs came into vogue in the late 1980s, despite being mooted earlier in the 1960s. The resurgence in their popularity, he said, was due to rising concerns about dependence on tranquilizers—drugs such as Valium and Xanax—in the early 1980s.

I reached out to the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and although no one was available for comment, they sent me over a statement, which had been prepared as a response to Healy's editorial. In the statement, Professor Sr Simon Wessely, President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists said: “That antidepressants are helpful in depression, together with psychological treatments, is established. How they do this is not—most researchers have long since moved on from the old serotonin model. Most important of all, the newer drugs—the SSRIs, are safer if taken in overdose than the older tricyclics.”

Serotonin is involved in virtually every aspect of the human body. It can be found in the gut, the bloodstream, the bones, and the muscles. Healy argues that as it’s one of the most primitive neurot​ransmitters, once interfered with, people risked other things going wrong in their bodies. “These drugs act on your muscles and on your bones, so that increases the risk of muscle problems or stroke,” he told me.

Healy said that SSRIs’ use in alleviating depression was initially based on a series of assumptions. “Because people thought these drugs (SSRIs) act on a few different systems, including the serotonin system, they thought that something was wrong with the serotonin system of people who were depressed,” he said.

“The marketing departments of companies trying to sell these drugs came up with the idea that what the drugs (SSRIs) do is correct lowered serotonin,” Healy told me. “The was the kind of idea that worked tremendously well with a lot of doctors, and patients. It seemed to provide a reason to give the pill but it was completely wrong. It was simply a marketing idea.”

In 2005, a stu​dy published by Jeffrey R Lacasse and Jonathan Leo explored the lack of evidence suggesting that serotonin levels were linked to depression. The researchers argued that while SSRI advertising has “expanded the antidepressant market,” there is little scientific evidence to prove the link between serotonin and depression. In another stu​dy conducted in 2014 by researchers at the Wayne State University School of Medicine, it was found that “mice lacking the ability to​ make serotonin in their brains did not show depression-like symptoms.”

While according to Healy, the pharmaceutical industry has churned out this myth to generate profits, he said that most at fault were the doctors and psychiatrists who had been prescribing the SSRIs to patients since the 1980s.

“Doctors get trained in physiology and pharmacology, but the one thing they should be trained about is in how companies market to them,” said Healy. “In order for you to get the drugs, you only need to go to the doctor, so companies only need to market to doctors. People like me, doctors, haven’t asked the pharmaceutical companies tough questions.”

While Healy asserted that SSRIs do not work on severely depressed people, John H. Krystal MD, a professor in Psychiatry at the Yale School of Medicine, told me over email that “the response to SSRI antidepressants appears to be different for every individual, as opposed to being non-effective for all.” Krystal also said that the role of serotonin on the cause of depression still was unclear, and supported the view put forward by Wessely that psychiatry had abandoned the “low serotonin” hypotheses as the cause for depression long ago.

In a study conducted in 2011, Krystal reanalysed data from​ seven clinical trials involving 2,515 patients treated with SRI antidepressants or placebo. He told me that “the majority of patients (over 75 percent) showed a superior response to patients treated with placebo. However, nearly one quarter of patients treated with SRIs showed a poorer response than patients treated with placebo.” This finding, said Krystal, raised the “critical issue of whether there are ways to identify those patients who would seem to be better off avoiding SRIs and to divert these individuals to other treatments for their depression.”

Over the phone, Healy stressed that the main danger lay in Big Pharma overhyping SSRIs as having more benefits than side effects, and for doctors and psychiatrists not to question this. Similar critiques of Big Pharma were also voiced in 2013 by psychotherapist James Davies, who argued on Channel 4’s Fac​t Check programme that “the so-called advantages of these medicines have been oversold and overplayed by the pharmaceutical industry and by members of the medical profession who have been recruited by the industry to sell up the advantages to other doctors and to their patients.”

Exactly how SSRIs work is still unknown. However, on concluding his statement, Wessely advised that people should not change their current medication.

Topics: Mental Health, depression, medicine, serotonin, SSRIs, discoveries, psychiatry, David Healy, Xanax
 
I will stick to my benzos...in all my hears of taking drugs, roughly 20 years, I've never taken any kind of SSRI, SNRI, the only types of a to depressants I've ever had were things like seroquel and trazadone which iirc are referred to as atypical antidepressants, and even then I took it once and the side effects were so bad I never touched either again.

I always knew SSRis are powerful in effect.. They are acting on one of the most I.portant neurochems in the body, and its everywhere in the body. I know more ppl who had adverse reactions to those meds instead of being less depressed..
 
They've got to have something to do with serotonin because SSRIs kill psychoactive drugs. I could never trip when I took anti-depressants.
 
I will stick to my benzos...in all my hears of taking drugs, roughly 20 years, I've never taken any kind of SSRI, SNRI, the only types of a to depressants I've ever had were things like seroquel and trazadone which iirc are referred to as atypical antidepressants, and even then I took it once and the side effects were so bad I never touched either again.

I always knew SSRis are powerful in effect.. They are acting on one of the most I.portant neurochems in the body, and its everywhere in the body. I know more ppl who had adverse reactions to those meds instead of being less depressed..

I believe Seroquel (Quetiapine) is actually an atypical neuroleptic / antipsychotic (is it not?) which mainly affects Dopamine levels, but regardless, I agree that its side effects are hideous.

Several years ago, I was Rx'd it to help me sleep, but even the smallest dosage (25mg) knocked me out cold for 10 - 12 hours.

So one day when I felt I had consumed too much Meth at once for my liking (according to the DEA propaganda, this is not possible - I'd continue upwards to a fatal dosage), I had a revelation: about 100mg of Seroquel should bring me back down a little to a level I find comfortable. Well, 100mg actually - again - knocked me out cold (while tweaking pretty hard no less) for a good 12 hours. When I woke up, I didn't know whether to laugh or weep.

Re. SSRIs - I think this dude has a good point, in that, if you claim it helps treat depression, but don't know how... how is that conclusive? How is that conclusive enough to get the SSRI drug family FDA approved and into the hands of countless patients?

I should be concerned since I was on 100mg of Zoloft (Sertraline) OD for ~8 months. What if it has done more harm than good in the long term?

My psychiatrist was more than happy to write the Rx - fucker wrote it with a "Zoloft" pen.

Yes I know it's all about the money, but then I should be more greedy myself and take these assholes to court for their apparent arrogance and ignorance if something turns up.

Ugh, I was worried that over the years, more articles like this would show up in the media - damn it.

They've got to have something to do with serotonin because SSRIs kill psychoactive drugs. I could never trip when I took anti-depressants.

Perhaps, but then again, I was able to get high as a kite on MDMA while I was taking Zoloft. And it really was MDMA (had it tested and - of the three reagents used - Marquis turned dark purple / near black in a few seconds).

Edit - This is somewhat related at best but (IMO) worthy of note: When I was on a daily dose of 300mg Wellbutrin XL (Bupropion) - which AFAIK is a Dopamine & Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitor - I found it impossible to get high off of Cocaine. And again, it was some good stuff - still in pulverized-rock form from being bricked for the journey here.
 
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The reason SSRIs show efficacy is that some serotonin receptors cause an increase in expression of neurotrophic factors such as BDNF. These factors do reduce depression through neurogenesis. So it's a little disingenuous to call it a myth.

The SSRI to BDNF thing is very gradual and very complex. Here is a diagram of the mechanism:

fig11.jpg
 
The reason SSRIs show efficacy is that some serotonin receptors cause an increase in expression of neurotrophic factors such as BDNF. These factors do reduce depression through neurogenesis. So it's a little disingenuous to call it a myth.

The SSRI to BDNF thing is very gradual and very complex. Here is a diagram of the mechanism:

Nice.

I guess that complexity is why Ketamine apparently shows promise as an antidepressant - what do you think?

Edit - A number of people I've come across over the past 15 years also claim that a Benzodiazepine - Xanax (Alprazolam) - of all things seems to reduce their symptoms of depression (not to be confused with anxiety and/or panic attacks). Perhaps it's a novel mechanism limited to this one Benzo? Perhaps it's a placebo effect - I'm not sure.
 
There were two points in my life where I was so suicidally depressed thst I would've definitely killed myself, and for no real reason. Life circumstances were fine but somehow my brain was burnt out. Maybe nutrition was bad or maybe I was just juggling too much. SSRIs rescued me in both cases, but I only took them for 1 month each. I think long term use is harmful. They stopped the mental looping and I could finally rest.
 
IMO the whole thing is a huge fucking scam. 'You need these pills we make for life, for sure'.

Taking them for a short period of time is one thing, but they also create a lot of problems for people and can cause serious dependency and withdrawal. Some people commit suicide on them, some commit suicide coming off of them. Let's remember the hippocratic oath: 'do no harm'

Good read.
 
Lol how is this even a doubt. Serotonin is strongly related to depression as is dopamine. When ever people take SSRI's in most cases depression is lifted, as well as anxiety. I took 100mg zoloft for 6 months or so and even if i WANTED to put my self in a bad mood i could not for the life of me feel depressed. I am not saying SSRI's are good for you but they no doubt work... in most cases. Serotonin and depression a myth? I think NOT

Now... you do not have to go on meds and things that directly mess with your neuro chemistry to fix your depression .You can eat healthier, exercise, take supplements and vitamins, change your life style the list goes on. But for some people this things are not enough and a medication is needed.
 
IDK... I'm not a psychiatrist, but even I know that medications can be effective in treating a condition even if their mechanism of action is not the exact opposite of what causes the condition. Am I making sense?

Yeah, the serotonin/cortisol hypothesis of depression has doubters. But even if depression isn't "caused by" low serotonin, that doesn't mean that blocking the serotonin reuptake isn't an effective treatment for many people.
 
Lol how is this even a doubt. Serotonin is strongly related to depression as is dopamine. When ever people take SSRI's in most cases depression is lifted, as well as anxiety. I took 100mg zoloft for 6 months or so and even if i WANTED to put my self in a bad mood i could not for the life of me feel depressed. I am not saying SSRI's are good for you but they no doubt work... in most cases. Serotonin and depression a myth? I think NOT

Now... you do not have to go on meds and things that directly mess with your neuro chemistry to fix your depression .You can eat healthier, exercise, take supplements and vitamins, change your life style the list goes on. But for some people this things are not enough and a medication is needed.

That was my dosage as well - 100mg of generic Sertraline once daily for ~8 months.

About 3 months in, I noted - in a journal I had decided to keep and update - a clear, definite improvement in relation to my ~20 symptoms. And as my time on the drug went on, I continued to mend up to a point where I hit a plateau. So eventually my psychiatrist and I felt it was time to switch to Wellbutrin XL (Bupropion), because of the aforementioned 20 symptoms, a couple still remained and weren't improved much after several months on the Zoloft. In the end, ~3 months on 300mg OD of the Wellbutrin XL completely took care of the remaining symptoms, and to this day (several years later) I remain symptom free.

I do not know exactly how or why Zoloft and Wellbutrin XL helped me to recover. What I do know is that, ~6 months of an active lifestyle, a very healthy diet, and absolutely no drugs whatsoever (Alcohol, Nicotine, and Caffeine included) before starting on the medications did not help me at all in the long term with respect to my symptoms. I would experience a relatively brief 'runner's high' after my daily morning aerobic exercises, but that's about it.

My point being that I don't disagree with you regarding SSRI use for depression and/or anxiety (as well as other illnesses).

I am however very curious to read or hear more about the use of Ketamine for depression. I've heard it's been very effective in the few studies conducted so far. And since it affects NMDA receptors (IIRC), I guess I'm just curious as to why it's supposedly so effective. I kind of enjoyed using the stuff back in the day too =D
 
I think part of the issue is that psychiatric diagnoses aren't the same as regular ones, it's not "X and Y symptoms are being caused by [specific infection/injury/genetic problem/etc], and so we'll treat with Z," it's just clusters of symptoms which occur together frequently enough to be labelled. There's no specific, set cause that we understand properly so far (and I doubt we will any time soon, given the subjective nature of psychiatric illness and our lack of understanding of the mind and the brain), so what works for one person won't necessarily work for another.

Personally, I fall into the camp of people who not only don't benefit from SSRI's, but ends up sick from them. I've tried them three times, twice for a fortnight and a third time for a month, starting out with 1/4 of my intended dose with the plan being to go up every week to a full dose over a month (which iirc. was 50mg of fluvoxamine the last time, I don't remember the other two). Each time I experienced the same, grinding headaches, painful nausea and getting hit with a feeling like I was coming down from a bad pill for a few hours every day. I never actually made it up to the full dose because the symptoms were intolerable even at 1/2 and 3/4.

On the other hand, I know people who seem to have benefited from them, but most of them had a few months of noticeably improved mood followed by a crash back to their prior state, or a pile up of side effects which were treated by yet other meds until they ended up a total mess on 5+ meds.
 
I think part of the issue is that psychiatric diagnoses aren't the same as regular ones, it's not "X and Y symptoms are being caused by [specific infection/injury/genetic problem/etc], and so we'll treat with Z," it's just clusters of symptoms which occur together frequently enough to be labelled. There's no specific, set cause that we understand properly so far (and I doubt we will any time soon, given the subjective nature of psychiatric illness and our lack of understanding of the mind and the brain), so what works for one person won't necessarily work for another.

That's not exclusive to psychiatry, though. I mean, you've effectively just described my experience being diagnosed with fibromyalgia by a rheumatologist. When my thyroid went wonky, that was also a diagnosis based on observation of symptoms and exclusion of particular causes. That's only two examples, but it's like a fifth of the illnesses I've ever had in my life!

Personally, I fall into the camp of people who not only don't benefit from SSRI's, but ends up sick from them. I've tried them three times, twice for a fortnight and a third time for a month, starting out with 1/4 of my intended dose with the plan being to go up every week to a full dose over a month (which iirc. was 50mg of fluvoxamine the last time, I don't remember the other two). Each time I experienced the same, grinding headaches, painful nausea and getting hit with a feeling like I was coming down from a bad pill for a few hours every day. I never actually made it up to the full dose because the symptoms were intolerable even at 1/2 and 3/4.

On the other hand, I know people who seem to have benefited from them, but most of them had a few months of noticeably improved mood followed by a crash back to their prior state, or a pile up of side effects which were treated by yet other meds until they ended up a total mess on 5+ meds.

I had some success with some SSRIs, no success with others. I eventually found a mood stabiliser that meant I could leave them behind forever. Certainly wouldn't have liked to have gone through all those years of bipolar without them, though.
 
That's not exclusive to psychiatry, though. I mean, you've effectively just described my experience being diagnosed with fibromyalgia by a rheumatologist. When my thyroid went wonky, that was also a diagnosis based on observation of symptoms and exclusion of particular causes. That's only two examples, but it's like a fifth of the illnesses I've ever had in my life!

If you don't mind me asking, how are you doing with respect to the Fibro?

Have you found any medication(s) which you feel has significantly reduced your symptoms in the long term without having to drastically increase the dosage since you started using?

Apparently Lyrica (Pregabalin) is a long term option which may help you if you ever wish to try a new medication (assuming you haven't tried it or Neurontin [Gabapentin] already).

P.S. - I solemnly swear that I have no business association with the manufacturers of Lyrica or any generic versions (if they're available yet / if the patent has expired).
 
If you don't mind me asking, how are you doing with respect to the Fibro?

Have you found any medication(s) which you feel has significantly reduced your symptoms in the long term without having to drastically increase the dosage since you started using?

Apparently Lyrica (Pregabalin) is a long term option which may help you if you ever wish to try a new medication (assuming you haven't tried it or Neurontin [Gabapentin] already).

P.S. - I solemnly swear that I have no business association with the manufacturers of Lyrica or any generic versions (if they're available yet / if the patent has expired).

Getting treatment for this is a pretty slow process, but I've been trying to figure out the cause of my pain and fatigue for nearly two years, so I guess waiting a few extra months for appointments isn't a big deal.

I've just been inducted into the pain management clinic and I have my appointment with their team in a couple of weeks. I have no idea what they'll do in terms of medication.

The only things I've tried so far are Duloxetine, which didn't help the pain at all, and modafinil, which has nothing to do with the pain but has been an absolute godsend for managing the fatigue. I'm also seeing an exercise physiologist to manage fatigue-friendly exercise and a massage therapist for kind of a "nerve re-education session" every now and then.

I've heard good and bad things about Lyrica - my biggest concern is that it would make my fatigue worse. I've also heard it can cause benzo cross-tolerance, which I want to avoid.

Thanks for asking! Do you have fibro or a related condition as well?
 
Getting treatment for this is a pretty slow process, but I've been trying to figure out the cause of my pain and fatigue for nearly two years, so I guess waiting a few extra months for appointments isn't a big deal.

I've just been inducted into the pain management clinic and I have my appointment with their team in a couple of weeks. I have no idea what they'll do in terms of medication.

The only things I've tried so far are Duloxetine, which didn't help the pain at all, and modafinil, which has nothing to do with the pain but has been an absolute godsend for managing the fatigue. I'm also seeing an exercise physiologist to manage fatigue-friendly exercise and a massage therapist for kind of a "nerve re-education session" every now and then.

I've heard good and bad things about Lyrica - my biggest concern is that it would make my fatigue worse. I've also heard it can cause benzo cross-tolerance, which I want to avoid.

Thanks for asking! Do you have fibro or a related condition as well?

I have neuropathic pain due to bodily trauma, but am wondering whether it's related in some way to fibro. In other words, I wonder whether the cause of fibro symptoms is similar to that of neuropathic pain.
 
I have neuropathic pain due to bodily trauma, but am wondering whether it's related in some way to fibro. In other words, I wonder whether the cause of fibro symptoms is similar to that of neuropathic pain.

Maybe? The pain clinic induction I went to spoke about them as different things, but my understanding of neuropathic pain sounds kind of similar to how I've been told fibro works (they think).
 
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