Meth and SNRI's

[bazil rimmer]

Hey,

Just wondering if there are any serious risks mixing meth with low dose SNRI (Effexor 75mg). I'm currently tapering off the Effexor but this may be the last time I can use meth

I understand they both work on dopamine/norepinephrine and was wondering if there's any risks similar to SSRI and MDMA use,

Cheers

 

[lovepsychadelics]

"The capacity of noradrenaline terminals to capture dopamine by means of the noradrenaline transporter (NET) has opened up new perspectives on the mechanism of action of norepinephine reuptake blockers such as long-established antidepressants or the new therapeutic agent for ADHD, atomoxetine. On the other hand, the hypothesis that dopamine and noradrenaline may be co-released from noradrenaline terminals in the prefrontal cortex suggests an additional interpretation of experimental evidence on the regulation of both dopamine and noradrenaline release through the pre-synaptic 2 receptor. (Nova Science Publishers 2013).
The reuptake inhibition provides greater concentrations of both substances. Noradrenaline is a catecholamine neurotransmitter increasing heart rate, vasoconstriction etc via sympathetic neurons. Noradrenaline is synthesised from dopamine via dopamine B-hydroxylase as footscrazy has stated. Amphetamines are also inhibitors of noradrenaline uptake 1. (Rothman, RB, et al. Synapse. 2001 Jan;39(1):32-41.) Dopamine is responsible for the feel good effect of meth and is responsible for reward related behaviours in clinical studies. Chronic dopamine increase seems to cause the receptors upregulate and desensitize ie more receptors that are less sensitive. So you get less of a reward response. Cocaine enhances Dopamine transport but blocks noradrenaline reducing the breakdown of dopamine and subsequent conversion to noradrenaline. Therefore increasing the bioavailability of dopamine and the reward response.
Upon further reading I'm not sure if a SNRI would reduce the feel good response of dopamine but it would dramatically increase the potential for cardiac stress, vasoconstriction etc. when taking dopaminergic substances. I have known guys who use meth and are on double your dose of Venlafaxine and they are fine while using. Just seems to take them a tiny bit more to get to the level they are after. That said be safe and start out small and feel your way up to where you want to be. Effexor is a highly addictive drug by the way, be careful if you want to wean yourself off. Many people have suicided when stopping effexor use suddenly. Effexor carries a black label warning in the USA. It was going to be withdrawn but drug companies lobbied the TGA hardcore. I still have an effexor pen and keyring given out by a drug rep when they were in damage control mode... Pristiq is one brand of Desvenlafaxine marketed by Pfizer.

 

[opi8]

The stories I've heard of Effexor, and the other one that is a derivative, desvenlafaxine (can't remember the brand name) are horrible. Fucking doctors are the worst drug pushers in the world. They actually "push" drugs, unlike those who drug users seek out to find pleasure and a reason to live.

 

[footscrazy]

Noradrenaline/norepinephrine (same thing) reduces the effect of dopamine, ie they cancel each other out.

Could you expand on what exactly you mean by that please? How does it reduce the effect of dopamine or cancel it out? I'm not necessarily disagreeing but it is the first I've heard this suggested and I'd be curious as to the mechanism of this. I know that noradrenaline is sythesised from dopamine in the brain, the pathway being L-Tyrosine -> L-DOPA -> Dopamine -> Noradrenaline -> Adrenaline.

 

[rickolasnice]

The stories I've heard of Effexor, and the other one that is a derivative, desvenlafaxine (can't remember the brand name) are horrible. Fucking doctors are the worst drug pushers in the world. They actually "push" drugs, unlike those who drug users seek out to find pleasure and a reason to live.

http://www.depressionforums.org/forums/topic/48709-effexor-has-helped-me-a-lot/

People are more likely to complain about something not working than to comment on something doing what it's supposed to.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Could you expand on what exactly you mean by that please? How does it reduce the effect of dopamine or cancel it out? I'm not necessarily disagreeing but it is the first I've heard this suggested and I'd be curious as to the mechanism of this. I know that noradrenaline is sythesised from dopamine in the brain, the pathway being L-Tyrosine -> L-DOPA -> Dopamine -> Noradrenaline -> Adrenaline.

I read someplace that noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors decrease the pleasure effects of dopamine by increasing dopamine conversion or some such but am unable to find a reliable source that supports this statement and I have, upon further reading, changed my original statement to reflect this. Cheers footscrazy, no good making a statement I can't back up with actual researched evidence and giving people crappy advice that I half remember . Effexor + Meth = Increased risk of adverse cardiovascular events.

 

[Halif]

Pristiq is one brand of Desvenlafaxine marketed by Pfizer.

Pristiq is the brand of desvenlafaxine that I had a short and disagreeable stint with. I stuck it out for five weeks and then ditched it, and went straight back to sertraline (on a higher dose).

Rickolsasnice: I appreciate that you are being objective and posted that link. You are right that people are quick to complain about things that don't work out for them.

Also, I think in a lot of cases people don't take the ADDs for long enough because they are freaked out by the initial side-effects. Having been on and off ADDs for almost fifteen years now, I can empathise with people who are hesitant to try ADDs or switch from one to another. It can be a very hard journey trying different meds over a period of months, all the while being buffeted around emotionally and even feeling worse than you did before you tried taking them.

Out of the three ADDs I've been on, sertraline has been the best. It worked very quickly for me. I felt different (in a good way) within two days, The doctor said that's impossible, you're just imagining it. But hey, I'd tried plenty of shit before which hadn't worked, so I don't know how it could have had such an immediate effect but that was my experience. Sertraline is fairly benign at low doses (50mg -100mg) but still comes with side effects, some of which disappear quickly and other that linger for months and months.

Sorry for going off topic...

Quick relevant response: I am not a psychiatrist or neurologist, so all I can offer is first hand subjective opinions. But for what it's worth, I found desvenlafaxine to interfere with ANY stims I took - I experienced increased anxiety (above what I would normally get from stims anyway) and a strange, scattered state of mind.

Incidentally, or maybe coincidentally, after dropping the Pristiq and returning to sertraline I quickly felt much better again, but was left with a low level but persistent feeling of anxiety which I had never experienced before and which has stayed with me to this day. I am now scripted diazepam which I use on a daily basis to cope with this.

There may or may not be any connection between the two events, and it was foolish of me to take stims while I was only a couple of weeks into a new AD medication. But I thought I'd put it out there. I don't think that venlafaxine and desvenlafaxine are SNRIs that should be readily available. They work for some, but they carry big risks compared to other SSRIs/SNRIs.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Mirtazapine is my antidepressant. A good hypnotic, anti-histamine and massive appetite stimulant. Venlafaxine is just bad due to the way it works on the brain. It is good for people who have cooked their dopamine receptors and therefore can't produce enough noradrenaline. That said I've seen people go through hell for a few days cause they forgot to get their GP to refill a script.

 

[Azron]

utter crap..... as long as your talking about Meth/Amphetamine, unles you're taking AD's with a high affinity of dopamine agonists/releasers.... and Effexor unless your taking over 375mg, dont worry at all.... There are obviously others but the OP was talking about very low doses of Venlafaxine..

 

[lovepsychadelics]

As I said low doses of Venlafaxine should not be to much of an issue but most Anti-depressant medication WILL increase cardiovascular issues if used in combination with stimulants to some degree. Basically if your increasing Dopamine production and therefore conversion into nor adrenaline, then blocking the re-uptake of nor-adrenaline and reducing/inhibiting mono amine oxidization you end up with more nor-adrenaline and associated cardiac stress. As for it decreasing pleasure response I have no clue and can't be assed doing more research. If you are blocking dopamine re-uptake and therefore conversion it should not decrease reward response... unless you have already fried the receptor sites with chronic use. Anyone with who can support/denounce this with published research data would be greatly appreciated so accurate advice can be given and so people can stay safe and well or you could just try being sober if your really worried.

 

[WarChild]

I've been on half a dozen SNRI and SSRI anti-d's and taken meth on all of them, with no problem whatsoever. I don't think they dampen meth and CERTAINLY aren't a dangerous combo. They DO however significantly dampen MDMA. Good luck.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

As I said should not be a big issue but in the spirit of HR just be careful. One person may be fine while another may experience heart palpitations

or mild vascular stress compared to taking meth alone. Combining any drugs will increase the risk of side effects. Does not mean you will end up

dead or in ED just be cautious when mixing two substances you have not taken in combination before. Even if you have being negligent ie not

weighing doses may cause unwanted side effects. Dopamine syndrome is as dangerous as seretonin syndrome but like Azron stated you'd need to

be on a huge dose of Effexor (or meth) to risk either. I think the varied responses posted may indicate that the effects, both good and bad, are highly

subjective. Seems all the articles I read do not indicate that the pleasure response will be decreased by a SNRI.

 

[Jabberwocky]

As I said should not be a big issue but in the spirit of HR just be careful. One person may be fine while another may experience heart palpitations

or mild vascular stress compared to taking meth alone. Combining any drugs will increase the risk of side effects. Does not mean you will end up

dead or in ED just be cautious when mixing two substances you have not taken in combination before. Even if you have being negligent ie not

weighing doses may cause unwanted side effects. Dopamine syndrome is as dangerous as seretonin syndrome but like Azron stated you'd need to

be on a huge dose of Effexor (or meth) to risk either. I think the varied responses posted may indicate that the effects, both good and bad, are highly

subjective. Seems all the articles I read do not indicate that the pleasure response will be decreased by a SNRI.

I have been on a SNRI for about 4 years now and was on a SSRI before that for 5. I can say that there is a decrease in dopamine although this is probably due to my age, i.e. 33. I still get high but am getting less high now due to abusing meth over a month period.

 

[Freedome]

I was on duloxitine (spelling?), for nearly a year.

the original was branded cymbalta, it’s an SNRI

I was in a very dark period around then, so that could have been it, but most rec drugs lost their special touch whilst taking the AD.

#inforfiddy #nomoregreenlighterrules

 

[Jabberwocky]

I was on duloxitine (spelling?), for nearly a year.

the original was branded cymbalta, it’s an SNRI

I was in a very dark period around then, so that could have been it, but most rec drugs lost their special touch whilst taking the AD.

#inforfiddy #nomoregreenlighterrules

Are you still on cymbalta?

 

[Freedome]

Nope. Been a while now.

seemed to follow the same WD path as an SSRI I was on about 5-6 years ago lexapro, think it?s escitalepram. Oviously with proper spelling....

I hate brain zaps. And the only time I?ve had them is when lowing dose on duloxitiene (cymbalta) and escitalerpram (lexapro).

I only noticed a slight change from being on both. Cymbalta was more noticeable. Had a little more control over my moods. And of course, less depressed.

But weighing up being on or off them seems to have swung to the off.

I was feeling depressed just for the fact of the amount of meds I was taking every morn and night. I still do. So I chopped off the one I felt was doing the least. And yes, this was with me informing my GP quite frequently.

AEDs (valproate and lowering Dilantin, hopefully to none) lyrica, occasional Diaz, Celebrex/paracetamol for pain.......oh and the real nasty ones, ranitidine and omeprazole ;-) Dems enuf meds for my tummy. Still too much imo. But I?ll get there one day.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Nope. Been a while now.

seemed to follow the same WD path as an SSRI I was on about 5-6 years ago lexapro, think it?s escitalepram. Oviously with proper spelling....

I hate brain zaps. And the only time I?ve had them is when lowing dose on duloxitiene (cymbalta) and escitalerpram (lexapro).

I only noticed a slight change from being on both. Cymbalta was more noticeable. Had a little more control over my moods. And of course, less depressed.

But weighing up being on or off them seems to have swung to the off.

I was feeling depressed just for the fact of the amount of meds I was taking every morn and night. I still do. So I chopped off the one I felt was doing the least. And yes, this was with me informing my GP quite frequently.

AEDs (valproate and lowering Dilantin, hopefully to none) lyrica, occasional Diaz, Celebrex/paracetamol for pain.......oh and the real nasty ones, ranitidine and omeprazole ;-) Dems enuf meds for my tummy. Still too much imo. But I?ll get there one day.

Your path seems to be the same one as mine. I was started on Lexapro and was on it for about 4 - 5 years. I put on 40 kg although back then I was sort of not eating properly and had lost a lot of weight from training 6 times a week so it is hard to say if it was Lexapro or my incorrect dieting. Regardless I put on weight and then when I tried to lose weight, it didn't let me. It was like mission impossible.

I then switched to Cymbalta at my Dr's recommendations but hang on after many years they aren't working any more and now I am stuck on them because if I don't take it the side effects are nastier then street drugs. When a heroin addict tells you he'd rather get off heroin again then cymbalta you know what time it is.

I began reading to see what my meds were doing to and for me (here is a good starting point: https://www.cymbaltawithdrawal.com/forum/19-cymbalta-lawsuit-information-news/) as I always took the Dr's and psychologists opinion as gospel and trusted it because hang on the recommendation ain't working and it did funny things to me. It opened up a whole new chapter in my life where I decided to finally give a shit about my health. I gave up alcohol in June and it was the best thing ever. My head needed to be cleared and not fucken sedated with more junk like SSRI / SNRI. Why the Dr even recommended I take Cymbalta when he knew I was an alcoholic baffles me as those 2 are a nasty combo in comparison to other ssri's etc..End of the day the Dr can easily read something and take it as something to recommend to a patient. All he knows is what he has read and interpreted but he has not consumed the med, he has not told you oh there is this going on and this will do this etc..What sucks is he won't even tell you to sleep on it and to go and do your own research before consuming it.

My dumb fucken psychologist at the time told me to take it and she had no right to offer that opinion as she is not qualified to do so. I took up her recommendation and she said I would be on it for 6 months to sift through problems, again no fucken right to even suggest how long I would be on it for or offering me a glimpse of hope as she can't predict the future. Well 6 months passed and she knew I was an alcoholic before getting on them and well I drank more and was still depressed so kept on taking them as they made the hangovers less worse. In hindsight I hate myself now for just not going to a rehab clinic or detox instead of being ashamed to go in. After months of sobriety if there was still no progress through the psych sessions I then should of considered taking it. But before putting that single pill in my mouth I would of studied academic journals, looked at pro's and con's and long term issues and how they work with my health rather then having a Dr who doesn't care just go here's a script.

At the end of the day something I have learnt this year is that you need to accept and respect your illness. Like really be honest with yourself. I think this is a big issue with people with mental health, still not wanting to accept who they are. At some stage the fight needs to stop and once you do you can work with yourself and not rely on opinions of those who don't live in your body or mind 24 hours a day to offer the most accurate advice.

 

[Jabberwocky]

As I said should not be a big issue but in the spirit of HR just be careful. One person may be fine while another may experience heart palpitations

or mild vascular stress compared to taking meth alone. Combining any drugs will increase the risk of side effects. Does not mean you will end up

dead or in ED just be cautious when mixing two substances you have not taken in combination before. Even if you have being negligent ie not

weighing doses may cause unwanted side effects. Dopamine syndrome is as dangerous as seretonin syndrome but like Azron stated you'd need to

be on a huge dose of Effexor (or meth) to risk either. I think the varied responses posted may indicate that the effects, both good and bad, are highly

subjective. Seems all the articles I read do not indicate that the pleasure response will be decreased by a SNRI.

I have experienced the heart pulpitations are irregular breathing. It definitely felt weird in comparison to when I was on SSRI. I found on SSRI for it to be ok and even back then I was smoking and drinking a lot daily.

I quit drinking and smoking on june 1st but I have used meth off and on since September after having already now been on an SNRI for maybe 4 years. Definitely the body doesn't like it now that it is in a healthier state. I also eat clean food, no junk.

Then again I often ponder if it is the batch as I have reacted differently at times.

 

[Freedome]

Your path seems to be the same one as mine. I was started on Lexapro and was on it for about 4 - 5 years. I put on 40 kg although back then I was sort of not eating properly and had lost a lot of weight from training 6 times a week so it is hard to say if it was Lexapro or my incorrect dieting. Regardless I put on weight and then when I tried to lose weight, it didn't let me. It was like mission impossible.

I then switched to Cymbalta at my Dr's recommendations but hang on after many years they aren't working any more and now I am stuck on them because if I don't take it the side effects are nastier then street drugs. When a heroin addict tells you he'd rather get off heroin again then cymbalta you know what time it is.

I began reading to see what my meds were doing to and for me (here is a good starting point: https://www.cymbaltawithdrawal.com/forum/19-cymbalta-lawsuit-information-news/) as I always took the Dr's and psychologists opinion as gospel and trusted it because hang on the recommendation ain't working and it did funny things to me. It opened up a whole new chapter in my life where I decided to finally give a shit about my health. I gave up alcohol in June and it was the best thing ever. My head needed to be cleared and not fucken sedated with more junk like SSRI / SNRI. Why the Dr even recommended I take Cymbalta when he knew I was an alcoholic baffles me as those 2 are a nasty combo in comparison to other ssri's etc..End of the day the Dr can easily read something and take it as something to recommend to a patient. All he knows is what he has read and interpreted but he has not consumed the med, he has not told you oh there is this going on and this will do this etc..What sucks is he won't even tell you to sleep on it and to go and do your own research before consuming it.

My dumb fucken psychologist at the time told me to take it and she had no right to offer that opinion as she is not qualified to do so. I took up her recommendation and she said I would be on it for 6 months to sift through problems, again no fucken right to even suggest how long I would be on it for or offering me a glimpse of hope as she can't predict the future. Well 6 months passed and she knew I was an alcoholic before getting on them and well I drank more and was still depressed so kept on taking them as they made the hangovers less worse. In hindsight I hate myself now for just not going to a rehab clinic or detox instead of being ashamed to go in. After months of sobriety if there was still no progress through the psych sessions I then should of considered taking it. But before putting that single pill in my mouth I would of studied academic journals, looked at pro's and con's and long term issues and how they work with my health rather then having a Dr who doesn't care just go here's a script.

At the end of the day something I have learnt this year is that you need to accept and respect your illness. Like really be honest with yourself. I think this is a big issue with people with mental health, still not wanting to accept who they are. At some stage the fight needs to stop and once you do you can work with yourself and not rely on opinions of those who don't live in your body or mind 24 hours a day to offer the most accurate advice.

thanks for your input. As bad as it sounds, it’s kinda relieving to know others have had similar experiences.