Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction/Prevention III

[tweex]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23851624

 

[Tussmann]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23851624

Word dude! Keep em coming!

This is a short Wiki write up: Sodium butyrate is a compound with formula Na(C3H7COO). It is the sodium salt of butyric acid. It has various effects on cultured mammalian cells including inhibition of proliferation, induction of differentiation and induction or repression of gene expression.[1] As such, it can be used in lab to bring about any of these effects. Specifically, butyrate treatment of cells results in histone hyperacetylation, and butyrate itself inhibits HDAC activity.[2] Butyrate has been an essential vehicle for determining the role of histone acetylation in chromatin structure and function. Inhibition of HDAC activity is estimated to affect the expression of only 2% of mammalian genes.[3]


EA - I sent you a PM about epigentic changes, but I don't know if it went through. Anything else new in the epi field? I know you're busy.

 

[Tussmann]

I highly recommend against the use of Wellbutrin (Buproprion) concurrently with amphetamines.... Very nasty shit right there, asking for a very nasty shitty time, asking for a very nasty shitty bloody time if enough is ingested or ROA's tampered with...

$0.02, be safe, not sorry.

I never got around to commenting on this, but I have great success with brand name Wellbutrin + AMP. As I type this, I'm on 300 XL and 20XR of Adderall. In my opinion, this is a much more suitable alternative for ADHD than taking Adderall in the 40-60 mg a day range.

The only time I can recall a really unsettling feeling with the combo was with the following: Shitty generic buproprion 150mg + 40 XR of Adderall + 30 mg of Cymbalta.

Otherwise, it's a much more practical way of managing one's life. And, you can take the weekends off from AMP without feeling like a slug.

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

Hey,

I put a notice in the mod thread, but I'm going to be minimally active until late September as I'm moving and trying to get into routine for medical school. I'll probably make a fourth version of the thread if we hit 250 replies but other than that I've got my hands full buying Swedish furniture and working my jobs.

Fascinating find on the HDAC inhibitors and the Krebs cycle! Tussman your PM didn't go through, I just checked my inbox.

Best,
EA

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

Hello and sorry for the triple post,

For the past two years I have gone by the moniker "Epsilon Alpha" and have served as a mod for this board for nearly as long. One thing I have not mentioned on this board is I aspire to become a politician. While I do not adhere to or preform any sort of extremist actions I believe my activities on this site could be misconstrued and used as banter against me should I run for any sort of office. Recent events pertaining to the Snowden NSA leaks such as PRISM, Xkeyscore, and undoubtedly more to come have made it clear that all web activities can be recorded and used against you. While my interest in pharmacology is fueled by my passion for the scientific and harm reduction for individuals who may not have the training needed to interpret the latest research (read: intellectual masturbation+humanism) it can be played against me.

I will be retiring from actively contributing to "questionable" material and will focus on being the best physician I can be and slowly gaining rank in whatever political party best fits my interests. It is with a heavy heart I must say that I will likely not be returning to this forum under this moniker, but if progress is made in improving online anonymity I may attempt to post more of my findings on the nature of amphetamine tolerance and toxicity in due time. To those select few that are privy to my identity by my choice I may choose to forward information to you regarding my personal wishes.

To the remaining mods I suggest that you tighten your internet security (Sekio, with all due respect it took me 15 minutes to find your exact identity). I also ask you to leave this thread open and foster a discussion of the new age of waning internet anonymity and how to fight back. I have chosen my path of peaceful resistance and though I may be playing the long game, I hope to eventually win while keeping with the values of democracy I value so. Please, I ask each and every one of you to do what you can to preserve your privacy via encryption, novel OS's, and whatever other practices that may entail.

To those who undoubtedly watch this site to hunt for the latest keywords. This is not a surrender. This is one user rising to the challenge of saving free speech and supporting their ideals through non-violent methods.

Best,
Epsilon Alpha

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...am-online-data

 

[tweex]

Sad to see you go EA!

All the best, we need more people like you to get out there and take a stand!

And as to anonymity, anyone thought of a .onion version of BL?

 

[Tussmann]

And as to anonymity, anyone thought of a .onion version of BL?

???

 

[Lolercaust]

Hey, all!
I made an account so I could join in the discussion about the augmentation of amphetamine use; specifically, about the study recently posted by tweex.
I originally saw that study linked on reddit, and my interest was immediately hooked.
I pulled up a few more studies:

By the same authors as the study linked by tweek:
Effects of sodium butyrate on oxidative stress and behavioral changes induced by administration of D-AMPH.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23411414
"The results showed that SB reversed and prevented d-AMPH-induced behavioral effects. The d-AMPH administration induced oxidative damage in all brain structures analyzed. Depending on the cerebral area and technique, SB was able to reverse this impairment."

Another from the same authors:
Behavioral and neurochemical effects of sodium butyrate in an animal model of mania.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21989497
"...SB reversed and prevented d-AMPH-related hyperactivity.

This one was REALLY fascinating, but it concerns cocaine:
Synergistic Interactions between Histone Deacetylase Inhibitors and Drugs of Abuse
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3004008/
"The authors replicate earlier findings that sodium butyrate potentiates cocaine-induced locomotor sensitization..."

I was so intrigued by all of this research that I bought a thing of sodium butyrate on Amazon.
I've been taking 600 mg the past three nights. I was previously diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so I am currently testing its purported anti-manic properties.
I've yet to try any stimulants in combination with SB, but I plan to soon. I only have dexmethylphenidate to test atm, but I will have a new batch of 4-FA soon to also test out. Eventually, I'd like to test pure dextroamphetamine.

 

[TCMVegas]

It is with a heavy heart I must say that I will likely not be returning to this forum under this moniker, but if progress is made in improving online anonymity I may attempt to post more of my findings on the nature of amphetamine tolerance and toxicity in due time. To those select few that are privy to my identity by my choice I may choose to forward information to you regarding my personal wishes.

Noooo!


Epsilon Alpha, (whoever you may be), I've really appreciated your contributions to this forum over the years. I've certainly learned a lot from you. I'm sad to see you go, as an understatement.

I've worked in a couple of neuroscience labs over the years. But a lot of my knowledge of molecular neuroscience has come from ADD, and from your threads in particular.

On behalf of me and everyone else who has benefited from your information over the years, thank you.

-TCMVegas

 

[TCMVegas]

Dear ADD community,

I've been considering taking this step for quite some time. Epsilon Alpha's leaving of this forum has pushed me to do the same.

I will cease my use of bluelight, due to anonymity concerns, and due to personal changes in my life.

Namely, I've stopped using illicit substances. I am working on shifting my focus towards academic achievement.

Additionally, I have been irresponsible at keeping my Bluelight contributions anonymous to those around me.

Best of luck to Bluelight, in continuing its harm-reduction mission through intelligent, scientific discussion.

EA: I'll pm you within the week.



Don't let ADD die, the world needs it.



-TCMVegas

 

[DexyDevil]

I thought I read that Mirtazapine is an NMDA antagonist. Is this true and if so what kind of effect might it have on the amphetamine experience?

 

[Lolercaust]

I've been taking 600mg of sodium butyrate nightly for 9 days now. I haven't tested it with any stimulants yet, oddly enough. That is because my desire to use stimulants is now at zero.
I've had cravings for stimulants since I was 17, when I was on Adderall. For the first time in my life since then, I have zero craving to get geeked out. The weirdest part is that I cannot even remember the feeling of what it is like to be on stimulants. All I can remember are the best times I've had with them and what I did during those times, but the feelings themselves are completely gone.

I still really want to try dexamphetamine with sodium butyrate purely out of scientific curiosity, but I don't really have the drive to seek out dex or any other stimulant for that matter. I still have some crushed up Focalin in my possession that I don't even feel like using.
This makes me wonder if sodium butyrate would be useful in combating stimulant addiction.

 

[tweex]

I've been off of all amphetamines for around three weeks, and have sodium butyrate on order. I intend to try it with low doses of d-meth, d-amp and 2-FMA in the near future, but alone and in combination with other neuroprotective adjuvants.

 

[Lolercaust]

Any update, tweex?

 

[Quercetin]

I thought I read that Mirtazapine is x an NMDA antagonist. Is this true and if so what kind of effect might it have on the amphetamine experience?

I have used both together for while if you have questio

 

[tweex]

I recently found out about an upcoming work related 10-panel, so I've been off anything scheduled recently so as to not piss hot. (I am scripted trazodone, so if they don't follow up with GC/MS I theoretically could take amps and probably have the positive overlooked, but I don't want to risk it in case they do go GC/MS). Sodium butyrate testing delayed another week or two. At least it has served to prove I'm not addicted

On the other hand though, I recently found this rather shocking study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701286/

"methylphenidate has the intriguing ability to provide neuroprotection from the neurotoxic effects of methamphetamine"

 

[Quantum Mind]

On the other hand though, I recently found this rather shocking study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701286/

"methylphenidate has the intriguing ability to provide neuroprotection from the neurotoxic effects of methamphetamine"

It's been known for a while no? I believe reuptake inhibitors in general have a tendency to counteract the effects and protect against releasing agents' "damage".

SSRIs, for example, have been used post-MDMA to reduce the comedown and I believe some studies have shown them reduce associated neurotoxicity. Using SSRIs BEFORE MDMA will, on the other hand, block most of MDMA's serotonergic effects.

In my experience, the same dynamics are involved between (meth)amphetamine (as a NDRA) and methylphenidate (as a NDRI). Methylphenidate taken before or simultaneously with amphetamines will result in much reduced effects out of amphetamines. On the other hand, methylphenidate dosed right after an amphetamine binge will extend the stimulant effects and make the 'crash' smoother while providing neuroprotection.

I'm pretty sure bupropion would also provide neuroprotection from (meth)amphetamines' potential neurotoxic effects. However the longer half-life from bupropion makes it undesirable in this case where not merely neuroprotection is desired but tolerance prevention (the point is to get the most out of amphetamines with the least damage right?). I've combined bupropion and dextroamphetamine in the past and the effects of dex on a mg-to-mg basis were MUCH reduced.

But yes, methylphenidate or bupropion following an amphetamine (or methylphenidate/bupropion + an SSRI if methamphetamine) binge is very likely to provide some degree of neuroprotection.

I guess it depends what your intent is; neuroprotection from occasional high-dose binge or tolerance prevention from chronic low-dose.

 

[Lolercaust]

I did a trial with sodium butyrate (SB) and amphetamine in the form of 20mg Adderall XR this past Friday.
I ingested the Adderall at around 9am, and the SB followed ninety minutes later.
After another ninety minutes, I was sedated. I felt tired and the effects of the Adderall felt far away. This lasted thirty minutes before the effects of the multivitamin I took slightly earlier kicked in.
Subsequent doses spaced three hours apart did cause a repeat of this effect.
This experiment was confounded, however, by other supplements and substances I took to abate the anxiety.
I will be giving it another go.

 

[MrSpeedyG]

Effects of the multivitamin...? Please ellaborate on this, you shouldnt feel a multivitamin.

I believe methylphenidate would provide neuroprotection against amphetamine in the same fashion that an SSRI prevents neurotoxicity from MDMA... blocking dopamine being metabolised inside the neuron.

 

[golden1]

Effects of the multivitamin...? Please ellaborate on this, you shouldnt feel a multivitamin.

I believe methylphenidate would provide neuroprotection against amphetamine in the same fashion that an SSRI prevents neurotoxicity from MDMA... blocking dopamine being metabolised inside the neuron.

ones with somewhat high %s of b6 and/or b12 are easily noticeable to me