Are the profound, life-changing experiences people claim from psychedelics overblown?

[TheAppleCore]

i dont know, you can dissect any experience to whichever degree you please until it has lost all its magic

Good call, man. So true. I used to do that.

Every spiritual experience can be explained by natural phenomena and laws of physics, because everything is just matter and energy after all. But, so what? That doesn't mean it's not beautiful.

 

[TrYpTiCaL]

This has been my experience as well.

Some people are more prone to "peak experiences" or "Shulgin ++++" or whatever you want to call these transcendental experiences. I have tripped countless (over 100) times and only had a fun, colorful time with no deep insights on the majority of those trips.

Then one day, I had a life changing experience in only 10 minutes while smoking DMT. I'm not going to get into a long trip report, but I had long and lasting life changes from this experience. My fear of death is no more. I went from a materialist atheist with a degree in the sciences to realizing my true nature.

I stopped bad habits. I started yoga and meditation. I study various Eastern spiritual material. My entire life changed, and for the better. That DMT trip was one of the most single important and defining events of my life, I'm still a scientist, but I am certainly no longer a materialist

I'm babbling, but the point I want to make is that I was an *extremely* experienced psychonaut who had sampled dozens of psychedelics over the past 10 years and I have only had a truly profoud and life changing experience one single time. If I hadn't had this experience, I would likely believe psychs had certain medical uses, but I would likely argue cockily and wrongly that they were not capable of anything *truly* profound.

Not everyone who trips will have a mystical experience, and some people have these experiences without ingesting any substances at all. These "peak experiences" are universal and need not be brought on by psychdelics, although that certainly seems to be the quickest way. Until you experience it there is no way to talk about it. Truly ineffable.

This is the biggest truth here for me. Profundity is a wholly subjective thing. Some people are never gonna have some life changing mystical experience; maybe they don't need to change all that much.

 

[pmoseman]

This is something I had heard locally, that you can hurriedly transcend. I doubt it has any validity. It's such an absurd idea, a race to revelation. It is probably just not as hard to attain as we were led to believe, by the monks.

 

[nervousone]

This is the biggest truth here for me. Profundity is a wholly subjective thing. Some people are never gonna have some life changing mystical experience; maybe they don't need to change all that much.

I totally agree on your first point, and I'd go further and state that *most* people will never have a mystical experience. However, I think if humanity is going to be sustainable for the long-term (on a cosmic time scale) than most people do need to change quite a bit. Our society is materialist and self-centered for the most part. There is so much hate everywhere. In my opinion, doing good for your fellow man and society is much more valuable than accumulating wealth for yourself.

Opinions are like assholes though, we all have one

This is something I had heard locally, that you can hurriedly transcend. I doubt it has any validity. It's such an absurd idea, a race to revelation. It is probably just not as hard to attain as we were led to believe, by the monks.

Monks and yogi's attain these states of consciousness without the use of psychedelics (98%+ of the time). You are comparing apples and oranges. I've talked to a large amount of people who have had transcendental experiences and the vast majority of them all used some variety of substance to achieve this “experience”.
Unless you want to meditate and do yoga for years on end good luck attaining "ego death" without the use of psychs.
Really, that is what it is all about. The root of pain in suffering comes from the identification with the body. Once you have had a *personal experience* that shows you your true nature, that you are *not* limited to your body, and that you are *not* your thoughts, everything changes.
It is a realization that will make you laugh and/or cry after “you” first “experience” it.
You aren’t just some body. You are the entire universe.
All is one.

Tl;dr: I’m going to leave this thread before I get attacked for spitting new aged gobbedly-gook.

 

[crOOk]

Some people are more prone to "peak experiences" or "Shulgin ++++" or whatever you want to call these transcendental experiences. I have tripped countless (over 100) times and only had a fun, colorful time with no deep insights on the majority of those trips.

Then one day, I had a life changing experience in only 10 minutes while smoking DMT. I'm not going to get into a long trip report, but I had long and lasting life changes from this experience. My fear of death is no more. I went from a materialist atheist with a degree in the sciences to realizing my true nature.

I stopped bad habits. I started yoga and meditation. I study various Eastern spiritual material. My entire life changed, and for the better. That DMT trip was one of the most single important and defining events of my life, I'm still a scientist, but I am certainly no longer a materialist

Not everyone who trips will have a mystical experience, and some people have these experiences without ingesting any substances at all. These "peak experiences" are universal and need not be brought on by psychdelics, although that certainly seems to be the quickest way. Until you experience it there is no way to talk about it. Truly ineffable.

QFT.

I think a lot of people could be closer to this than they think, but aren't opening themselves to what is possible. My first experience of the kind was achieved through an obe induced drug-free out of a state referred to as "sleep paralysis" which had previously been haunting me at night for five years. All it took was a miniscule amount of reading (1h worth probably lol). Funnily enough, after this the sleep paralysis has not occured a single time anymore. So many people experience this state (usually drug-free), without ever opening them to it's possibilities but simply looking at it as a pathological phenomenom. There actually is a huge comorbidity between other psychiatric abnormalities and sleep paralysis... Almost all cultures know some sort of religious ecstatic state or ceremonies, besides us. It's definitely justifying a diagnosis with delusional disorder trying to express such an experience to a doctor lol.

I totally agree on your first point, and I'd go further and state that *most* people will never have a mystical experience. However, I think if humanity is going to be sustainable for the long-term (on a cosmic time scale) than most people do need to change quite a bit. Our society is materialist and self-centered for the most part. There is so much hate everywhere. In my opinion, doing good for your fellow man and society is much more valuable than accumulating wealth for yourself.
Really, that is what it is all about. The root of pain in suffering comes from the identification with the body. Once you have had a *personal experience* that shows you your true nature, that you are *not* limited to your body, and that you are *not* your thoughts, everything changes.
It is a realization that will make you laugh and/or cry after “you” first “experience” it.
You aren’t just some body. You are the entire universe.
All is one.

Fuck yes, also QFT. And yeah, I'm celebrating having more than two people seemingly reciprocally agreeing on these things, since usually these types of statements end up being attacked from all sides, in my experience. Bluelight is one of the last places I even bother to say anything along these lines.

 

[Lab-Test Monkey]

So instead of being of called ego death would ego rebirth be a more appropriate name (coincidentally one which may cause less fear for those entrenched in western culture).

You grow your ego/perception from birth, you meditate or have a thought or experience(psychedelic drugs or near death experience being a fast but not always safe trigger for some people) which causes your mind to lose grip on your ego for an instant or longer. As you regain your grip your damaged/dead/shaken ego is rebuilt with new perspective and subsequent continuation of ego is both enhanced in worth and tempered with some degree of spirituality(or new sense of place in the scheme of things).

 

[pmoseman]

Unless you want to meditate and do yoga for years on end good luck attaining "ego death" without the use of psychs.

This is exactly what I was discussing?

An answer to the original poster I think has been acheived. Yes, they are overblown.

I have heard two buddhist monks saying that the psychedelic experience is nothing like the meditative experience and others discuss enlightenment as series of false enlightenments (although they use fancier words than I do).

Psychedelics enhance experience and make the simple seem profound, e.g. blockheads think they are the Dalai Lama. It seems clear to me that "ego death" would fall under the status of false enlightenment.

Claiming you quickly acheive something it takes monks "years" to achieve is false.

You have no such endorsement coming from real monks, and all this is in fact quite embarassing. Such a claim goes against the very notion of an "ego death". In that state, time has no relevance. We are talking about the realization of unebbing truth, not baking instructions. You are trying to bring the experience back to the mundane, where it has always been.

Enlightenment is an experience that utilizes the head, not the buttocks (refering to the expectation that enlightment has something to do with practicing long meditations).

 

[TruffulaTree]

Try mushrooms.

 

[flat-line]

I suppose the question I'm asking is, do you think people approach psychedelic experiences so convinced that something really life-changing is about to happen that they convince themselves that it really has?

A lot of “life changing” experiences are “delusions of grandeur” IMO. People are high and think they figured out life and the universe and things will be magic forever. Then the after glow fades and they are back living the same patterns of existence 2 days later.

“Life changing” takes energy, work, focus, devotion, etc. Psychedelics can open peoples perceptions and show them things to change but they will not magically change them. But they can give people insights and desires to change.

I have had very spiritual trips that left me in awe, but it didn't make me want to sell my car and be a wandering monk. It just gave me a nice glow.
I have had trips that pulled apart my ego and showed me things I wanted to improve and left me with a desire to improve and change those parts of me, which in turn made me a better person. It was me that changed them but the psychedelics opened my awareness to do it.

 

[oar9fi]

It can also be said that psychedelics change ones mode of thinking temporarily that makes one question the nature of things even if these questions are not answered (or the answer you got is not compatible with your regular mind.) The simple realization that there is more to the universe than meets the eye, or even that there might be more to it, can be powerful.

Sometimes questions are more important to raising one's awareness than the answers.

 

[pmoseman]

It is nearly impossible to dismiss confused state of mind, unless it is an isolated incident. When it becomes a constant interuption, then we are forced to relate with it.
Perhaps we evaluate this state has less to offer, but that state we consider does not stop because we have acknowledged it. Our personal growth will force it back into oblivion but we will always find it creeping, calling us back into that dark place.

 

[Ghost_of_EWO]

The profound life changing experiences you can have on psychedelics are definitely real.
Just gotta find the right psych and dose to hit the nail on the head.

Terrance would recommend five grams of dried mushrooms in a room full of nothing but darkness and yourself to make something happen

For me it was MXE in a dark room alone in crazy doses. Went to see some interesting things not of this world.
You'd have to see for yourself to believe me.

The states when everything feels neat and new and fresh and connected are below the breakthrough state. When you break through, I believe these are the life changers.

"Break on through to the other side"

You'll know when you've been there. Trust me.

I have yet to see anyone I know break through. It appears its not easy to obtain. I seem to have done it a good 10-15 times or so. With DMT, Shcroomies and MXE. 25i-nbome I just saw lots of amazing neon colors and shapes. But there is another guy here who says he gets out of body and spiritual experiences with it.

Usually on LSD I get into that state of "wow look how amazing everything is. Isn't our existence incredible?! I feel like life is so weird and special yadayadayada"

That's not a life changer for me though. Breakthroughs are.

Some people are more prone to "peak experiences" or "Shulgin ++++" or whatever you want to call these transcendental experiences. I have tripped countless (over 100) times and only had a fun, colorful time with no deep insights on the majority of those trips.

Then one day, I had a life changing experience in only 10 minutes while smoking DMT

This seems to be the case..
If you count marijuana, which is a hallucinogen, I've done hallucinogens half a million times or more. Being as I've smoked weed for years and years.
I've done mushrooms 45 times or so and only one EGO DEATH/Breakthrough-like experience came from that. It was the DMT and MXE that I found would get me there the easiest. I also had a breakthrough on a combination of mushrooms and MXE.

So 10/15 breakthroughs devided by half a million times consuming hallucinogens..
1 in 60,000 chance that I broke through.

 

[Saphy]

Great message

 

[deee]

psychedelics puts you into the process parabola, afterwards you come back down to the object level, but you don't quiet believe it anymore

see general semantics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE1iOM9FqBg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-7zYBKgzfs

 

[J_has_L]

Psychedelics help dissolve the ego, allowing a person to view certain things (such as their beliefs or aspects of their life) from a different view point..

Imo, though, psychedelics have just as much chance of altering your beliefs by making you think you have worked something out.. but it'd be something you already knew anyway or something really obvious.. partly due to a dissolved ego, warped thoughts and that "eureka!" feeling. People bang on about how psychedelics taught them so much, when i've asked: like what? It'll be something really obvious, something that is probably wrong or "learning" something they already knew.

For example.. It's very common for people on psychedelics to "see" (not visually) things that aren't there and for those things to make perfect sense (when in reality, they don't).. This happens a lot while tripping. Random things could seem connected in some way when they aren't, things like that.

Because of the dissolved ego, warped views and that eureka feeling, i think psychedelics are just as likely to "confirm" any thoughts you may have (as long as they made somewhat logical sense (while tripping!), and they weren't TOO far removed from your sober mind) - which would sometimes be negative; more-so if it wasn't for psychedelics euphoric properties or their tendency to push people to a slightly more positive mind set (whether that be during the peak, comedown or hours / days after the experience.

I'm not saying psychedelics don't have potential to better a persons life or anything, cos of course they do.. but they also have potential to make someone's life worse.

I would say i agree with this post the most out of any ive read so far. Alot of times the things people come up with on psychedelics is pretty outlandish, and sounds flat out crazy to any sober person. But just because its chemically induced doesnt mean that people cant experience feelings and thoughts that are very real. For example someone can have an epiphany of a new understanding of being content, happy, and less needy than they were before the trip. He or she could possibly kick an addiction or an unhealthy habit. If someone can gain a beneficial experience and take away from it something good, then i think it is a real experience with real benefits no matter how fucked up they are.

That being said, every trip is different, and sometimes u just feeling like a mushy pile of confused bullshit! lol Its different everytime for sure.

 

[pmoseman]

psychedelics puts you into the process parabola, afterwards you come back down to the object level, but you don't quiet believe it anymore

see general semantics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE1iOM9FqBg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-7zYBKgzfs

I like the term he uses, abstractions.
An apple remains an apple whether we abstract it or not.
The abstract model we have for the apple fits with its reality to a significant degree.
Our knowledge of its true properties have been uncovered, essentially, with mathematics.

But just because its chemically induced doesnt mean that people cant experience feelings and thoughts that are very real. For example someone can have an epiphany of a new understanding of being content, happy, and less needy than they were before the trip. He or she could possibly kick an addiction or an unhealthy habit.

Questioning and changing belief is an experience everyone has which just happens to occur at the same age as most drug use.

 

[flat-line]

This is something I had heard locally, that you can hurriedly transcend. I doubt it has any validity. It's such an absurd idea, a race to revelation. It is probably just not as hard to attain as we were led to believe, by the monks.

If you “transcend” with a chemical when the chemical wears off you are back to where you came from. It takes years for the human mind to develop. Your mind is different and more evolved then it was 10 years ago. It took 10 years to develop that.

Monks and yogis train to expand and focus awareness and try develop a mind that can live in higher states of awareness. Training and focus can speed up the process just like training for anything.

A fat lazy TV watch slob does LSD has a “magical/transcending” experience. The next day he is still a fat lazy TV watching slob, he might have had an inspirational experience but he is back to what he is.

If he is inspired and throws his TV in the dumpster, smashes it, starts excusing, training, goals, focus to be what he has envisioned in his magical experience. He can change his self and transcend to a higher self.

To do a substance then wake up with your mind in a completely altered for ever would be insanity. It takes time to develop and adapt to the changes. Normal minds will not let that happen because it is destructive and would only be metal illness.

 

[Ismene]

I have heard two buddhist monks saying that the psychedelic experience is nothing like the meditative experience and others discuss enlightenment as series of false enlightenments (although they use fancier words than I do).

Psychedelics enhance experience and make the simple seem profound, e.g. blockheads think they are the Dalai Lama.

It's always better to look at what these self-proclaimed "enlightened" buddhists actually do instead of what they say. Tibetan buddhism existed for 600 or 700 years in Tibet - in that time with all their "meditating" and "enlightenment" they created a feudal system where they exploited native Tibetans as slaves who they punished mercilessly for the slightest infraction against their buddhist slavemasters. You stole a goat because you were starving? Tough shit - the dala lama cut your hand off and gouged out your eyes. They were bastards that made Hitlers stormtroopers seem like absolute sweethearts. All the buddhist enlightenment in the world did those guys no good whatsoever.

The dala lama fled the country with enough gold to feed Africa when the chinese finally invaded - why did he need gold when he's got enlightenment? Didn't the buddha say do not treasure possessions?

The psychedelic experience is superior to anything any buddhist will ever come up with.

If you “transcend” with a chemical when the chemical wears off you are back to where you came from. It takes years for the human mind to develop. Your mind is different and more evolved then it was 10 years ago. It took 10 years to develop that.

Monks and yogis train to expand and focus awareness and try develop a mind that can live in higher states of awareness. Training and focus can speed up the process just like training for anything.

This is the "sweep the ashram for 50 years and you'll be enlightened" school of thought. I disagree. I don't believe meditating for 50 years makes you anymore enlightened than anyone else. In fact looking at the state the tibetan buddhists ran Tibet into you could argue all it does is turn you into a self-obsessed, cruel master-race. The Tibetan buddhist monks certainly never had any "empathy" for the Tibetan slaves they dominated. It was more a case of "Do not treasure possessions sayeth the Lord Buddha - but steal my goat and I'll gouge your fucking eyes out you heathen bastard".

 

[flat-line]

This is the "sweep the ashram for 50 years and you'll be enlightened" school of thought. I disagree. I don't believe meditating for 50 years makes you anymore enlightened than anyone else. In fact looking at the state the tibetan buddhists ran Tibet into you could argue all it does is turn you into a self-obsessed, cruel master-race. The Tibetan buddhist monks certainly never had any "empathy" for the Tibetan slaves they dominated. It was more a case of "Do not treasure possessions sayeth the Lord Buddha - but steal my goat and I'll gouge your fucking eyes out you heathen bastard".

Just because you are a monk doesn’t mean you will become enlightened. Just because you are a preset doesn’t mean you will find god.

My point is training. If you train your mind to become aware it will become aware. Aware of what ? What you train it to be aware of.

A person that meditates and trains to be aware of themselves for 50years is gong to be more aware of themselves then your average day to day Joe.
Why ? Because day to day Joe trained his mind to play xbox, learn the history of NFL football and how to assemble consumer goods at work. All spare time he gets he spend escaping himself with cheap alcohol. He is a sleep.

And yes religion has always been a tool for elites to control the masses and still is today. Main stream religion is for control not to raise awareness.

 

[Ismene]

If you meditate for 40 years your mind will certainly be more aware of what it's like to meditate. I just wonder if that's anymore valuable that studying guitar for 40 years so your mind is more aware of what notes go with what notes? Or any other activity. If you trip for 40 years you'll be better at tripping that someone who has meditated for 40 years.